QH/Paint Sires known for passing on excellent temperaments

[meaty_ogre]

I seem to see this claim made in many ads, but out of curiosity, I would love to hear from anyone who knows sires with good temperament in their bloodlines if such sires exist. Well, I’m sure they do, but I’d like to know who they are. Or, if you know sires who seem to pass on less amenable temperaments feel free to share that too.

I’m probably a while away from horse shopping, but I am interested in learning more about QH and paint bloodlines. I have been lucky enough to ride a fabulous paint and I wish I knew his breeding, but I don’t. I know there are plenty of other factors that play into temperament as well, but again, this is just out of curiosity. I have been wanting to learn more though since I may go that direction (papered QH or paint) for my next horse purchase, and I figured this was a good starting point.

And since this is a learning opportunity for me, feel free to share thoughts on other breeds like arabians, TBs etc as well if that is what you know. Thanks!

[Bluey]

As you say, there is so much to temperament and disposition, that mentioning just one facet is leaving too much unsaid.

There are some AQHA lines that are known for excellent horses that anyone can get along with, the truly “born broke” non reactive horses out there.
Then, if you want to do something very athletic with those horses and compete with horses that are more reactive, you may be at a disadvantage with your relatively more plodder type horse.

There are tradeoffs to different characteristics and some are really antagonistic with each other.

If you want a horse with a sterling disposition, sometimes you are giving a little bit of an edge up.
A more active and athletic horse will rarely be a calm and gentle and sweet horse when trained and fit or not handled and ridden much.
You have to work at keeping such horses amenable, and teachable, they are more dynamite than sand.

Temperament is marginally important for, say, racing or cutting horses, as their inherited ability for those tasks are not that dependent on being easy to handle and live with for the general public, as long as those that train and compete with them can handle them.
That doesn’t mean that there are not many sweet and nice race and cutting horses, just that temperament is not that necessary to do well, for them, so the bad actors keep being bred.

You need a good temperament to make a horse a hunter, but if you can get a rogue over jumps in time and clean, he can be competitive as a jumper.

If you tell us what you want to do with a horse, then we can say in that discipline, for that use, these are the better lines and from these, for this and that reason, you can choose which kind you like best.

We need to always remember that, in the end, it really comes down to the individual.
No matter what the breeding tells us, it is not always there as we expect, be it ability or temperament.

[SLW]

Well said Bluey.

Zips Chocolate Chip and Invitation Only offspring- they are in the AQHA hunter rings. An up and comer who is putting quiet offspring in the show ring is Lopin Slow. Not quite as leggy a QTR horse but good brains.

[meaty_ogre]

Bluey, I realize itwould be much more helpful to narrow it down by activity, but again I’m not looking right now, just was curious as to what sires are known for offspring who are “calm” (i.e., easily trainable, unflappable, non-reactive, etc.).

I always see ads claiming that “this sire is known for passing along excellent temperament” and I was just curious as to whether or not others who are more familiar with QH or paint bloodlines would be willing to confirm that. And I also know that those same sires probably have had some bad seeds too so it’s not anything remotely guaranteed, but I’m just trying to satisfy my own curiosity, from accounts of those here on COTH who own offspring of certain sires, etc. So when you said there are some AQHA lines known for being “born broke,” I’d love to hear which those are.

Thanks SLW. I have heard that Zips CC babies are good to work with, and have read it in multiple ads.

Again, I know it’s as much of a crapshoot as saying that Tennessee Walkers are calm horses…there’s good and bad in every bunch, but I’m just curious as to who you guys think pass on good minds, or who in your experience seems to. Thanks!

[BeaSting]

My experience goes back to the 80’s, and I had mostly QH’s and Appaloosas. When I was looking at broodmares and babies for good temperament and born-broke attitude, I’d look for solid foundation breeding with as little TB crosses as possible, with the exception of Three Bars. I especially liked Two Eyed Jack, King, Oklahoma Star, Bert and Bill Cody. As for apps, I really like Joker B and Red Eagles.

[RegentLion]

I know first hand of one APHA stallion that has 6 great tempered babies that I’ve had the pleasure of riding/working with/around.

I own one of them.

Granted, the mare was “ok” tempered but could be a bit wary/spooky. None of the babies are that way. They are the type you can not ride for 9 months then get on and go.

His name is “Kiss My Zippo” http://www.cotsonikapainthorses.com/kissmyzippo.htm

An AQHA horse I’ve heard great things about is Zippo Jack Bar. The vet that did the breeding on my mare (She’s by Zippo Jack Bar) commented that she was easy/fun to be around “just like all the other horses by Zippo Jack Bar.”

http://www.bsbr11quarterhorses.com/zippojackbar.htm

I’m sure there are others out there but these are the two I can personally vouch for. I also know one colt by teh APHA stallion “High Lonesome” and he’s really cool too.

[birdsong]

[QUOTE=SLW;3962562]
Well said Bluey.

Zips Chocolate Chip and Invitation Only offspring- they are in the AQHA hunter rings. An up and comer who is putting quiet offspring in the show ring is Lopin Slow. Not quite as leggy a QTR horse but good brains.[/QUOTE]

My friend just had a Chocolate Chips Zip filly born last Sat…granddaughter of Zip’s Choc Chip.
She will be available…

[meaty_ogre]

Thanks guys, this is just the type of info I was looking for…personal experience/thoughts as well as “insider”/industry info that a non-breed person wouldn’t know. I have some friends who do the QH and paint circuits and I’m always amazed at how they seem to know so much about bloodlines. I bought my TB’s info from the jockey club website, but I still sometimes have to look to remember his sire and dam’s names.

So, which sires seem to pass on unruly kids? I guess those probably don’t stick around long in the breeding world though, huh?

[Percheron_X]

I agree… I’ve worked with a few Zip horses and they were all just lovely.

[MeanderCreek]

I have a mare by Kiss My Zippo out of a TB mare that is really nice minded. I got her in trade so I wasn’t too sure what she was going to be but she’s going to be a very nice hunter. She had been in a low and slow program and had too much step but that’s just fine at my house. She’s the only Kiss My Zippo I’ve had so I can’t say if this is typical.

We’ve had a bunch of the APHA and AQHA lines, foals by most all of the name brand HUS horses from the late '90s through now and seriously the most uniformly great minded, conformationally correct, good moving athletes are by our own very old bred appendix stud. He is a young horse but has Two Eyed Jack, Skipper W and Bold Ruler on his papers. Mostly he gets bred to TB mares for sporthorse foals rather than the breed show deal.

[mypaintwattie]

I’ve had two paint mares with Far Ute Keno breeding, and they were very calm. The line puts out steady, bombproof all-around horses. My first mare was by Far Ute Keno and was bomproof on any trail and transitioned from broodmare to western to english very easily. My current paint mare is by Jet Storm (Jet Deck lines) out of a Far Ute Keno line mare. She is bombproof and can do nearly anything- western, english, and we will be starting to drive!

Also had a paint mare with Doc Bar breeding- she was fairly steady and very athletic.

Wow- do I see a paint mare trend here? Scary!:winkgrin:

[Woodland]

We stood a double bred Jackie Bee horse - his get had outstanding temperaments! I swear they were born “broke”. Even before we owned him I would always look at a Jackie Bee that would come up for sale :yes: I have had excellent luck with Zippo Pine and Pat bar bred horses, Impressive bred horses are a long time fav of mine, as are Coys Bonanza bred, Scotch Bar Time/Sonny Dee Bar bred and Doc Bar.

I have never liked a Two Eye jack horse - and I have met & trained a lot of them - thick headed! Not a Poco Bueno fan either! And i have owned several Secretariats I would have swore were jack asses! In Apps anytime I hear Ulrich I RUN the other way! Pretty much anytime I hear the phrases “foundation bred” or “Parelli trained” I BOLT the other way!!! I won’t even look at them!

In apps I ADORE Plaudit bred horses! And in TB’s Red Ryders have always been stellar!

[Plumcreek]

AQHA, Only sire I personally would absolutely stay away from is Indian Artifacts. You see some that are touted as quiet, and they’re always for sale, Heh.

Ones I would look at: Achieva (his mother never, ever, put a foot wrong in her whole life, and negates his more difficult, but talented Encoriva sire line totally), any Skys Blue Boys you can afford, Do you have a Minute, Artful Move (and most of his sons, but not Indian Artifacts) , Sky Blue Walker. A real up and commer is Hot Diggity Joe - passes on his good mind and his real reach-from-the-shoulder stride. He seems to be siring larger than his 16 hands. Really depends where you live and what studs put out a lot of get in your region. Go to the QH Congress in Ohio and watch which bloodlines come into the hunter rings. Some of the big HUS bloodlines are noticably absent.

Go to the AQHA website and see if they still have the leading sire lists. There used to be a separate list of english event sires. You should have a lot of nice for sale horses to pick from, since most QH exhibitors want easy,easy,easy. If you only want easy, lots are available.

Edited to say it is the flat exhibitors who want easy,easy,easy. Over fences people want just easy - about the same as the H-J crowd.

[Sparky]

I’m not familiar with the paints, but we do seek out the AQHA horses with the best temperments. For a western-type horse, we have a couple by Therapy that are as close to bombproof as you can get. He is Zippo Pine Bar bred, and I’ve never had one of that breeding that was at all difficult. For the hunters, the most laid back (actually, lazy, which isn’t always a good thing) ones have been by Do You Have A Minute–they are born mellow and never seem to change! The Skys Blue Boy’s are worth it, but they seem to have to go through ‘a stage’ first. The Rugged Lark’s we have had are great, but though they have their sire’s looks, they often have their dam’s minds, so it’s a bit of a gamble. The Artful Investment’s are nice minded, the geldings/studs more so than the mares, and they can do it all.

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Plumcreek;3963452]
AQHA, Only sire I personally would absolutely stay away from is Indian Artifacts. You see some that are touted as quiet, and they’re always for sale, Heh.

Ones I would look at: Achieva (his mother never, ever, put a foot wrong in her whole life, and negates his more difficult, but talented Encoriva sire line totally), any Skys Blue Boys you can afford, Do you have a Minute, Artful Move (and most of his sons, but not Indian Artifacts) , Sky Blue Walker. A real up and commer is Hot Diggity Joe - passes on his good mind and his real reach-from-the-shoulder stride. He seems to be siring larger than his 16 hands. Really depends where you live and what studs put out a lot of get in your region. Go to the QH Congress in Ohio and watch which bloodlines come into the hunter rings. Some of the big HUS bloodlines are noticably absent.

Go to the AQHA website and see if they still have the leading sire lists. There used to be a separate list of english event sires. You should have a lot of nice for sale horses to pick from, since most QH exhibitors want easy,easy,easy. If you only want easy, lots are available.[/QUOTE]

I would add to this PS Sign The Card. I have a 3 yr old that has THE best temperment of any horse I have owned. I did buy him directly from the breeder. We keep in touch and I asked her once if all the babies were like this…she told me she does breed for temperment…she knows her stallion so if she gets one without the temperment she gets rid of that brood mare, LOL.
He is also an athletic sire as he was a jumping horse. Of course one cannot be responsible for outside breedings so again it depends on who you buy from also, I think.

[mypaintwattie]

[QUOTE=Sparky;3963704]
The Artful Investment’s are nice minded, the geldings/studs more so than the mares, and they can do it all.[/QUOTE]

Can’t believe I forgot them, we have 2 Artful Investment offspring at our barn, one is a mult. world champion and was very successful on the A circuit. Both the gelding and the filly seem pretty mellow and easy to train.

[Bluey]

I have a ranch horse that goes back to Jackie Bee thru Tee Jay Roman and he can buck and beller and kick out with the best of them.
He is very athletic and a very good cowhorse, just a little cold backed.
He also has Double Bid, that some are pets, as he is to handle and some can buck their tail off, as they say around here.

He is so nice all around, to handle and ride, to keep with other horses without trouble, always comes to you anywhere, really fun to ride, just not on a cold morning, when you have to get going and don’t have time to warm him up a little bit.
You can talk him out of it, but if not, the rodeo is on and he can give you a hard time with his bucking then.

One of our stallions, an Oklahoma Star son, out of a Pigging String TB mare, gave us practically every one of his foals already born broke, no kidding.
We just got on and went to riding them.

We had a race stallion that was a half brother to Doc Bar and he was a little rank.
Some if his foals took a good hand to keep them honest, they too tended to get rank and not take fools easily.
Those foals out of race bred mares had to be sold to professionals that could get along with them, they were not for the general public.

Several of our ranch mares went back to Bill Cody and they were very nice to handle and ride and so were most of their foals.

[county]

I have a son of Hollywood Jac 86 whos foals are very easy to work with and start under saddle. Also have a son of Peppy San Badger whos foals learn very quickly and are easy to handle on the ground but a little hotter under saddle which I think comes from the studs bottom side.

Had two daughters of Two Eyed Jack that were as mellow and laid back as could be but stubborn under saddle. Had a daughter of the paint stallion Hank-A-Cheif that was probably the best mannered and attitude mare I’ve ever owned.

I think every blood line will have exceptions but for sure some are more known for good and bad attitudes.

[Plumcreek]

I am going on the premise that we are talking about english discipline QHs here.
Finding a sale horse by one of these studs we are all mentioning, and near where a person lives and having it fit you and your price range is low probability, although a person could sure look. Nice horses with totally different or unknown bloodlines may be available and good horses come in all forms.

The whole point of targeting a QH or Paint english horse is to get the following:

Horses by studs bred for a pleasure or working mentality (and in the AQHA incentive fund) but out of tall TB or Appx. QH mares that pass on their height and legginess. So you get the huntseat look and movement with the working/pleasure horse brain. The sire determines Incentive Fund (and Paint version of same) eligability.

A good simple starburst forehead swirl between the eyes and centered. Slightly to the off side is a plus. Much above the top of the eyes, they better have other wonderful things about them.

You also get the strong rear end motor muscles that make it easy for these horses to be athletic at a relaxed pace. Warmbloods get this by bone size and strength, TBs by momentum and speed, but the QH has the strength in the butt where it counts. Look for a deep muscle tie in from the back point of butt as far down toward the hock as possible. Not just a big fat butt, but the deepest tie in low toward the hocks - long muscle. That is where the strength to collect and flow quietly over fences comes from. It is not worth buying a QH without this attribute. A back that is no longer than medium is also important, but I have learned that rear end strength can overcome a longish back, sort of. Shortish back is always better.

You also want a more TB shoulder. Many QHs were bred for low and slow, and will have their front legs set back behind the front profile of their chest, because their neck ties in low. This resulting restricted shoulder can be disguised while traveling with a low head set, but when you raise the headset to a huntery level, the shoulders will still not reach freely if the legs are set on underneath. My rule for an “open shoulder” that will give a sweepy stride is to see all of the wither behind the elbow in side view and as straight a line as possible down the chest to the forearm in side view, no undercut to the forearm, plus no more than a 90 degree angle in the major shoulder bones (too lazy to go look up the proper names). This allows them to have a nice forearm profile over fences, and pin against the WBs in the USEF hacks. The shortest cannons possible will give the flat, no knee stride. A longer cannon makes them have to pick their knee higher to move the lower leg. My mare with only slightly longer cannons must go in racing plates or she has ‘knee’.

If you find all of the above, they can have anything that was alive for a sire.

[pintopiaffe]

I’ve not read all the responses, but here’s my take on it… MOST APHAs are known for their temperament. It’s one of the draws to the breed. Of course there are nutjobs and spazzes… but for the most part, they have been bred to be all around, family horses. That is the stereotype and breed standard.

I’ve met very, very few in my life that have not been lovely minds. Some were cursed with horrible bodies or feet to go with those minds, but most have super brains and work ethics.

My favorite lines for sport are Dixie’s War Drum and the Norfleets, Hank-a-Chief. Sonny Dee/Leo San Siemon. I’m particularly fond of The Ole Man, Badger and Lady Bugs Moon lines for temperament. Peppy San for size and pretty heads.

I like cutting/reining bred for sport, and I look for an uphill, barouque build for dressage. I actually end up with far less TB in the pedigree than you’d expect in the APHA’s I use in my program. Lots of foundation.

One of the things that makes me nuts though, is it’s really hard to tell lines by names. You can have a Peppy Sand Man with absolutely not a single Peppy San in the pedigree for example…