If you are talking about horses for English disciplines, you may need a little more size than some cutting and reining/working cowhorse lines may give you.
I have a 14 hand reiner/working cowhorse and his size is not an exception.
He is a grandson of Smart Little Lena on top and Hollywood Dun It on the bottom and both grandmothers are daughters of Peppy San Badger.
If you want size, go with those lines that will provide that.
I have a gelding by Blast of Heathen, who is by Skippa Heathen. My colt is not spooky and really quite, but he has never been easy. When I got on him the first time my trainer told me not to fall off because she was pretty sure he’d go after me if I hit the dirt! He has no patience for amature mistakes and resents being told what to do. However, he almost never spooks, finds him own spots over fences, has a fancy jump, and keeps a rhythm like nothing you’ll ever ride. There were several other Blast of Heathen babies in my area and from what I’ve heard none of them were easy.
I’ve heard GoManGo had some difficult offspring in the first generation, but I had a mare that was a granddaughter and she was pretty nice… come to think of it she was a little quirky… but very fancy and athletic.
IBA Gamblin Man (Grant)
At 16 years old, I purchased an unhandled yearling APHA stud colt. I taught him everything myself, never sending him to a “trainer”. As a 3yo, we trail rode and did some local shows. He was a saint. In the middle of breeding season, I could ride him bareback in a herd of mares and he was great. We sold him when he was 7yo because we got into breeding Warmbloods and he no longer fit our breeding program. He went to a farm up North. Their Christmas card two years ago was three of their young children, riding Grant around in the snow. It was beautiful. They even use him in lessons because he is so quiet.
The best part is ALL of his get have that disposition. They are born broke and are easy, easy, easy. I have one of his sons that is doing the Large Greens this year with the USEF and is pinning very well, even against the Welsh/TB crosses that are so popular.
Not a day goes by that I don’t think about Grant. He was the stallion of a life-time.
Depends on what you like. I like light sided, goe-y but not spooky or stupid and have always found I’m very compatible with the AQHA racing lines - Jet Deck, Croton Oil, Top Moon, Te N Te, Truly Truckle, Rocket Bar, Depth Charge, etc.
Rugged Larks are nice and that line has produced some beautiful hunters when crossed with Thoroughbreds. The ones I’ve been around have been easy to train.
If you like lazy and beginner safe, look at Sonny Dee Bar horses. You can blow a bomb off next to them and they might swish their tail. My friend has a SDB/Mr. Norfleet APHA stallion that I think could have been safely broke out by an eight year old. There’s just no motor, no buck, no spook. He doesn’t even do that stuff loose. Two Eyed Jack horses are also tolerant and versatile.
A lot of the “cow bred” horses tend to be more temperamental…I like Doc Bars but they tend to be hot. I have no use for the Hancock, Poco Bueno, or similar “foundation” lines if they aren’t tempered with something else.
My 4 year old is Impressive on top and Boston Mac/King on the bottom and he is one of the easiest horses I have ever trained - worst thing he’s ever done is balk a bit.
Look at pedigrees - remember, a horse can be registered AQHA and be mostly TB, so you may get a little more of a TB disposition than you wanted buying one of his get.
Some of those racing lines, like, Jet Deck, Croton Oil, Truly Truckle, Tiny Charger and such have many nice, tractable horses.
I would consider the Top Deck a little more squirrely and the Top Moon and Go Man Go were known for some harder to handle horses and some of the Go Man Go were buckers.
Depth Charge offspring would go more by the mare lines, the Double Bid ones bucked well, others took after the dam’s side.
Many Rocket Bars took more after the TB nice, sweet but birdbrained type and rather harmless, as they were more “light” horses than many quarter horse lines, that tended to be, to type, heavier in frame and muscling.
Boston Macs were known for very bad front legs and skin and allergy troubles and a very nervous and hyper disposition and those came strong thru many generations down the line, where today some top barrel racing horses with that line are still very nervous and touchy, although above average athletes, if you can keep them sound.
Two Eyed Jacks and Skipper W are a little more heavyset type, easy going to handle, as long as all goes their way and a little more resistent if they don’t agree with what you want, which makes them harder to train than the much easier, already well motivated, with the great work ethic of the, say, Doc Bars.
A plus of getting the horse bred for what you want is that, for that task, their bred into talent makes them half trained for you even before you start.
Again, we have to warn those that look at bloodlines for characteristics in the individuals that yes, those show thru down the line very regularly, that is why we bred for the known traits we want to the same, but that in the mix, each horse is it’s own individual and may trump all expectations, the good and bad ones alike.
[QUOTE=meaty ogre;3962441]
I seem to see this claim made in many ads, but out of curiosity, I would love to hear from anyone who knows sires with good temperament in their bloodlines if such sires exist. Well, I’m sure they do, but I’d like to know who they are. Or, if you know sires who seem to pass on less amenable temperaments feel free to share that too.
I’m probably a while away from horse shopping, but I am interested in learning more about QH and paint bloodlines. I have been lucky enough to ride a fabulous paint and I wish I knew his breeding, but I don’t. I know there are plenty of other factors that play into temperament as well, but again, this is just out of curiosity. I have been wanting to learn more though since I may go that direction (papered QH or paint) for my next horse purchase, and I figured this was a good starting point.
And since this is a learning opportunity for me, feel free to share thoughts on other breeds like arabians, TBs etc as well if that is what you know. Thanks![/QUOTE]
That is way to general to help…even without adding in the TBs and Arabs!
First, narrow it down to what you want to do with the horse.
In general…for a riding horse avoid most of the Halter Paint/QH lines. YOu want performance horse lines. They used to be one in the same but not any more. The same goes for the Arabs. The halter arabs bred for a “look” often lack the brains and butts needed to make a good riding horse. The Polish Arabs used for endurance still have both. There are still halter lines that can be ridden (Bey and Khemosabi lines) but you have to be much more careful. I would also avoid Go Man Go lines in the stock horses. The are super athletes but tend to be very hot and difficult to stop when they get rolling.
I agree on the Sonny Dee Bar. The first horse I took lessons on as a kid was a son of his and he was a bombproof, laid-back sweetheart.
Part of what Bluey has touched on, is the fact that there is much variation within the QH breed. I recently read a blog posting that made perfect sense, in regards to QHs and the range of types… and how you can’t expect say, a cutting-bred horse who is reactive by nature, with fast-twitch muscles, to take to something like pleasure because it is just not genetically within its realm.
http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.com/2009/03/cross-training-vs-genetics.html
It is a valuable point… cause I see so many people buy QHs thinking they are all the same, and all quiet, when really a lot of them are bred to be high level athletes and act as such. I’ve known more than one QH to get dumped by an ammy cause it had a serious “sit and spin” spook or was just to “go-go-go” for its owner.
Myself, I like the old school Wiescamp lines. My first horse was Skipper W bred and while he was jack of all trades, master of none, he was one of the nicest, kindest, and easy-going creatures I’ve come across.
Personally, I’d stay away from Impressive-bred horses. Every one I’ve ever known have been quirky, difficult types, regardless of upbringing or environment. I have at times wondered if there is something physiological that is NQR with the line, aside from the HYPP factor.
I’m not as up on A friend of mine has an Invitation Only baby, she is lovely and seems very level-headed. She’s a real thinker, and doesn’t seem bothered by much.
[QUOTE=MeanderCreek;3963226]
I have a mare by Kiss My Zippo out of a TB mare that is really nice minded. I got her in trade so I wasn’t too sure what she was going to be but she’s going to be a very nice hunter. She had been in a low and slow program and had too much step but that’s just fine at my house. She’s the only Kiss My Zippo I’ve had so I can’t say if this is typical.
We’ve had a bunch of the APHA and AQHA lines, foals by most all of the name brand HUS horses from the late '90s through now and seriously the most uniformly great minded, conformationally correct, good moving athletes are by our own very old bred appendix stud. He is a young horse but has Two Eyed Jack, Skipper W and Bold Ruler on his papers. Mostly he gets bred to TB mares for sporthorse foals rather than the breed show deal.[/QUOTE]
My trainer loves Kiss My Zippo! She has 4 full siblings by him and 2 that are not related. ALL are easy and great minded. They improved on their mother in every way-- especially in temperament. One of the mares had a LOT of spook and her baby didn’t have ANY. Both the mare and the baby were handled from birth by the same owner, so…
I have one of them and he has been trained and can do WP but is best at Hunter Under Saddle and I’m teaching him to jump and hoping to do some hunters with him this summer (locally).
Cow horse: Doc Bar are quick minded, easy to start and progress fast- great for an experienced rider a poor choice for youth/beginners. Can have big motors. Peppy San are bronc-y to start but amazing athletes. Tend to be small (14-15h) and catty. Not English movement.
Foundation: I would not own a Hancock horse if it were given to me. Skipper W are slow to mature and busy minded. Tend to be coarse movers.
Lesson horse Prospect: I would look for a Zippo Pine Bar, Sonny Dee Bar, Two Eyed Jack lines. Quiet and easy.
Great legged: Look for the Invester or Invitation only line. Artful Investment combines the Artful Move line with the Invester line and his babies are fantastic. I’ve got a dynamite filly out of him and a TB mare right now- and she has big, uphill movement and is very, very trainable.
I have a zips chocolate chip grandson and i have to say he is a joy to own!
His dad which is Zippos Rv was great as a stud you never knew he was a stud. Mom goes back to impressive and i’ve heard all around that they are awesome horses to work with.
I don’t care for the two eyed jack line very bull headed and hot for a aqha!
I don’t like Two Eyed Jacks. Two opinionated. Poco Buenos are catty and smart but glad to buck you off til they are good and broke and even then…lol. Jet Decks? Idiots. Skipper Ws …see Poco Buenos.
On the QH side and (although he’s died) offspring of Don’t Skip Charlie are on my favorites list for looks, temperment, and movement for both Western Pleasure and Hunter Pleasure.
My friend has a Zip paint. He’s a Zip line crossed with Awrapadude (sp?)/Reynolds Rap. He has an AMAZING mind and is super, super smart. Really just a nice horse all around.
I am a huge fan of Smart Chic Olena foals. Smart…smart…smart! They are also very athletic. I also like Zippo Pine Bar horses (including the Zips Chocolate Chip line). Overall seem to be really level headed.
I won’t own a Skipper W or Boston Mac bred horse. Onry as hell and tough as NAILS. The ones I have ridden fought me tooth and nail.
Dry Doc horses are also hardy and tough minded. My mare is a double bred Dry Doc and doubly tough.
Great Pine horses are tough to break through to, but make awesome horses once you get through to them.
Shining Spark horses should be reserved for experienced riders. I’ve never met one that was beginner friendly.
Another agree w/ Sonny Dee Bar, excellent minds and easy to train.
I’m a HUGE Go Man Go fan, simply because I have one and have had him for 17 years. If I could clone him I would. He’s also Three Bars top and bottom and clearly bred for speed. He’s never once bucked in all the years I’ve owned him. If he gets mad, all he does is toss his head and jig a bit. He’s the go anywhere do anything kind of horse. He knew nothing but track and pasture when I bought him. He’s been on thousands of miles of trails, camping, been in rings on playdays and fun shows, been in parades, through town and so on. Never bats an eye and goes wherever I point him and will even jump.
I also have a Jetalito, Kingfisher, Mr. Norfleet, Sonny Dee Bar bred APHA mare that has a wonderful disposition that was and has been very easy to train and get along w/. Nothing phases her. I bought her as a yearling. I almost changed her name, but she ended up proving it fit her very well. Her name is Angel (reg. Lil Blue Angel.) Her first foal was by an own son of Ris Key Business, 3x World Champion. I’m hoping to repeat that breeding in the future. I was very impressed w/ that cross. Wonderful disposition on that stallion, as well. Wisecamp/Scottish Cord damline.
Thanks guys!
This is just the type of info I was hoping for. I know it is very vague and several of you have said that makes it impossible to be helpful, but you have given tons of helpful info. I fully expected people to disagree (one loves a sire while another says his get are the spawn of satan type of discourse), but I am amazed at how much you all seem to agree on. I fully recognize that there are a million other things to factor in, but I wanted to add some bloodline knowlege to my arsenal the next time I look at a horse. I may find something I love with a bunch of no-name sires on the papers and that’s fine. But at least this way when I seem to have difficulty finding something and I have to start making 4+ hour treks to try horses, I will at least have some inkling that the horse might actually be worth the gas money it takes to look! 
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;3964265]
I am going on the premise that we are talking about english discipline QHs here.
The whole point of targeting a QH or Paint english horse is to get the following:
Horses by studs bred for a pleasure or working mentality (and in the AQHA incentive fund) but out of tall TB or Appx. QH mares that pass on their height and legginess. So you get the huntseat look and movement with the working/pleasure horse brain.
You also get the strong rear end motor muscles that make it easy for these horses to be athletic at a relaxed pace. Warmbloods get athleticism by bone size and strength, TBs by momentum and speed, but the QH has the strength in the butt where it counts to do things relaxed and easily. Look for a deep muscle tie in from the back point of butt as far down toward the hock as possible. Not just a big fat butt, but the deepest tie in low toward the hocks - long muscle. That is where the strength to collect and flow quietly over fences comes from. It is not worth buying a QH without this attribute. A back that is no longer than medium is also important, but I have learned that rear end strength can overcome a longish back, sort of. Shortish back is always better.
You also want a more TB shoulder. Many QHs were bred for low and slow, and will have their front legs set back behind the front profile of their chest, because their neck ties in low. This resulting restricted shoulder can be disguised while traveling with a low head set, but when you raise the headset to a huntery level, the shoulders will still not reach freely if the legs are set on underneath. My rule for an “open shoulder” that will give a sweepy stride is to see all of the wither behind the elbow in side view and as straight a line as possible down the chest to the forearm in side view, no undercut to the forearm, plus no more than a 90 degree angle in the major shoulder bones (too lazy to go look up the proper names). This allows them to have a nice forearm profile over fences, and pin against the WBs in the USEF hacks. The shortest cannons possible will give the flat, no knee stride. A longer cannon makes them have to pick their knee higher to move the lower leg. My mare with only slightly longer cannons must go in racing plates or she has ‘knee’.
If you find all of the above, they can have an unknown for a sire.[/QUOTE]
I am bringing this back up because I just chanced on a photo of a young english bred QH that has everything I was talking about above, expecially the strong muscle tied in down low from butt toward hock. This horse also has most of his wither behind his elbow and a pretty good shoulder. He is the first gray gelding on this page (and is not my horse): http://www.rickskelly.com/horsesforsale.html
Wow, I haven’t thought about Joker B in…decades.
I have a Poco Bueno/Pacific Bailey lines gelding who is terrific, I joke that he and my Great Dane are twins separated at birth. Only other Poco Bueno bred horse I worked with was back in the early 70s, but he was a nice sort too. Guess I can’t leap to conclusions based on only two. But I am partial to Leo horses. And Skipper W horses- yeah, can be ornery but talented and tough as nails (I like that in a horse), I foxhunted a Skipper W great-grandson for 20 years, after his western pleasure career.
Here is my mare’s pedigree- she has a great temperament. My gelding’s pedigree doesn’t show up there, guess I should add it one of these days.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/skippa+sugar+bo
Gee. I just went further back in her pedigree. She has a line all the way back through Diomed to the Godolphin Arabian. Unrelated to the OP’s question (sorry) but cool, I think!
Artful Investment is just so awesome … champion in everything from western pleasure, pleasure driving, huntseat and hunter over fences. If you watch his video you can see he would be very competitive in open company too. Wish I can afford one of his babies!
As for open hunter company, many of the Sky’s Blue Boy offspring due well on the open circuit. FYI - not all QH’s can jump!! If this is important to you make sure you check out the stallion’s performance record first!
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
