Questioning a board price increase - yes, I understand inflation

[Bebe_Falcon1]

@iJump

As someone who is building their own facility… and has been pondering on boarders, this thread has made me definitely not want them. Way too much headache. I want to enjoy being in my barn, around my own horses.

As a responsible boarder who is well aware of the cost and work involved in operating a facility, this mentality breaks my heart. Yet I’ve seen enough “crazy” in the boarders passing through the doors at the place where I’m at, to understand why barn owners are adopting this mindset.

@2bayboys

“boarders need to be more grateful…”

They do. They absolutely do. The crap my previous BM put up with was enough to convince her to shut down the entire operation, and now the 40-stall barn sits empty. And I’m sure I didn’t even know the half of it! She was incredibly professional, and no the place wasn’t perfect, but there was always someone who felt she wasn’t doing ENOUGH. Same story for the place previously, she just got sick of being challenged all the time.

That said, there are still decent boarders out there. I’m on field board, and pitch in by mucking-out the field shelter on the regular, checking for (and fixing) holes in the slow feeder net, adding salt licks (with permission) as well as other enrichment. I’ve also spent countless hours picking-out the field of manure - nobody else does it. So no, the place isn’t perfect. But I’ve come to understand that at every barn there’s a compromise. And this one checks 8 boxes out of 10.

Would a discount on my board be nice for the extra work I put in? Sure! But I also understand I’m doing this voluntarily, and I also understand what a tough business this is and like to think I’m making the BO’s life 1% easier by pitching-in as I’m able.

So again, it breaks my heart to hear that the mindset of many barn owners is anti-boarder. Because when it comes time to move my mare (the last two places I was at closed, so I realize it’s only a matter of time), our options will be so very limited because a glut of other entitled and self-important horse owners are ruining it for everyone. And there’s no insinuation that the OP is one of these, this is just a general comment based on many of the comments here along with my own personal experience.

(Uh oh, I’m off on a tangent now ) The number of boarders the current BO has lauded or gushed about in my presence, only to have them a) make some rude or snarky comment to someone else at the facility b) complain about any given standard of care, and then c) disappear overnight without supplying 30 days notice (or in some cases even owing backdated board) is … substantial.

[soloudinhere]

I think this goes to the difference between cash flow vs income.

I need the cash flow from boarding in order to support the things that need to be bought/done every month.

At the end of the year, on paper, I make very little, but that cash flow funds the farm and property. The farm makes money but not book profit.

When taking advantage of all the tax pass throughs that are available as far as depreciating buildings, plus depreciable assets like equipment and sales horses, my “income” comes from the taxes I don’t pay on the cash flow coming in every month.

[kirbydog]

My BO’s are both quite wealthy individuals, who want a very nice place to keep their own horses, so we offer a lot of nice amenities. We are heated, have a beautiful well lit indoor arena, a HUGE outdoor arena, grassy fields connected to trails to ride on, 12 all weather paddocks, 12, 2-4 acre pastures, full service and regular service, etc etc etc. The staff lives on the farm, as well as having a rental house on the farm. The place is fricking beautiful. We have a wait list for board
BUT
The good quality shavings we use have increased in price by about 50% in the last 2 years
The high quality hay we feed has increased by $3 a bale over the last 2 years. Multiply that by the 7500+ bales we buy a year.
Needed a new tractor, the big JD tractor finally croaked, even though it was well maintained
Jumps get beat up and need replacing or repair. Go look up what a nice hunter course costs, and multiply that by 2
Propane has gone up, even though we lock in the best price we can annually
Electricity has gone up
Boarders leave lights on, and don’t close doors, no sign in the world will change the ones who don’t
Pitchforks get used improperly and broken.
Indoor washrack clogged bc non full service clients are not careful about what goes down the drain
The staff is very good, and thus very expensive, probably our biggest expense ( and they are damn good, though people will still bitch about stupid stuff)
Insurance for property and horses has gone up
Need I go on? We are not the most expensive facility around, but we are fairly pricey, and it still isn’t quite enough to turn any profit, bc every year, when you think this is the year we will make some money, there is a major capitol repair/expense that has to be made.
And still, as lovely as our place is, there are a few people who will still complain when we raise the board $50
I give my BO’s credit, as if I was them, I would drop the riding school (which is a loss leader, school horses are expensive to maintain correctly, and we do) kick out the complainers, and keep it only for themselves and the best clients

[clanter]

@candyappy

If you have personal horses that are taking up not only boarding space but you are not paying for their upkeep out of pocket( they are also covered out of boarding income) that is just more of a financial drain

OK I had a boarding operation but my personal horse paid the same rate as the boarders… the Farm was an independent corporation (a C Corp)

[soloudinhere]

@kirbydog

I give my BO’s credit, as if I was them, I would drop the riding school (which is a loss leader, school horses are expensive to maintain correctly, and we do) kick out the complainers, and keep it only for themselves and the best clients

That’s what I did. There was no amount of lesson funds that made having a school program remotely worth it to me. In fact, I’d rather not have boarders at all and just have my sales horses in training, but in fairness to my trainer of choice, I allow her to have full training clients. However, the first time one of them is a PITA, she knows they’re out, and she’s very careful about managing them because of that.

I did end up creating a “menu” of what was included for grain in board. The total ended up working out to about $80/mo per horse. I hated boarding where you had to feed one 12% feed or be stuck supplying your own. We offered a bunch of different feeds, and each one had a point value attached that determined how much was included in your board versus had an upcharge.

I guess that came from me always being the one with the pony on the ration balancer, while someone else’s TB was eating half a bag of sentinel LS per day for the same price I was paying.

[kirbydog]

we have started a new policy of “this is what we feed. if your horse requires different, fine, but you will have to pay the difference in our cost.” it’s just too dang expensive

[MsM]

I would say that the stables I know of around me that offer boarding are either 1. Running big lesson/lease/show programs. Often they have lesson fees built into the board. Most everyone there is in their program or it wouldn’t be worth it. At least one property came from inheritance. 2. Havea literal backyard barn and only take a boarder or two for companionship and maybe someone to ride with. Not really a business proposition. 3. Something in between where the BO has a larger facility but doesnt strive to do all the showing sales and leases of #1. Probably the most problematic to manage as there is more business/friend conflicts and misunderstandings. The ones I am thinking of try to earn enough to cover the cost of a couple of their horses. There is a sweet spot where the number of horses provide enough income for the labor required to keep them - too few and there is not enough income; too many and you need to hire help you cant afford.

[Displaced_Yankee]

@TheJenners

OKay now, don’t be trying to say boarding barns ALSO need to be doing their taxes on the up n up

Sh… “Horse farm” is a dirty word in the IRS’ mind. Ok, two words.

[Mander]

@hey101

I’ve really had great success moving to the self-care model, with carefully screened applicants, minimum number of horses (no onsie-twosies), and a very clear contract that it is entirely self care. I make sure all personalities fit, and it’s very clear what is shared access (ring, wash rack) and what is your own private areas.

How did you screen your boarders?

I once asked my BO why she didn’t build a few extra paddocks on an empty acre or two she had and have a self-care board and she pointed out almost verbatim what @Djones experience was. What happens when the owner forgets to feed? runs out of hay? doesn’t have time to come pick pens or fill the water trough? What happens when someone uses someone else’s hay?

She’d never let the horses suffer for having shitty owners, but that means more stress, hassle, time and money on her part.

[OverandOnward]

@hey101

with carefully screened applicants … I make sure all personalities fit … I moved from nonprofit to good profit.

Do you have some tips and examples of how you screen for applicants that are a good fit, for personality & responsibility?

You seem to have found a very good system for your property! And you don’t have the burden of managing barn help. Sounds like your own wisdom and ability to set clear boundaries are key.

[OverandOnward]

@candyappy

All that to say if you have huge debt starting out ( like an expensive farm purchase) I can see how a boarding operation would struggle to make it. Most any new business would.

Absolutely true for most business models. And yet debt is what many people count on to get up and running.

Finding cash investors may not require a mortgage payment with interest, but the investors do want to see a return.

If one has a big chunk of money that could be invested, one doesn’t want horses to be the means of turning a large sum of money into a small sum of money. It’s like having outside investors. Even if the investor is one’s own self, that investor needs still needs a return that makes it more worthwhile than other investing options.

I think one factor that makes the horse business especially challenging for success is that these large living creatures must have care and proper eatables every day in enormous quantity. They poop at about 50 lbs per day and pee about 10 gal per day. Help can be hard to find and not always reliable. It is hard to switch off the business and stop the spending in a short amount of time (although I know that sometimes that happens).

The daily pressure to get certain costly things done is enormous. And the point of being in this business is … ? It can turn out not to produce the outcomes that would make it worthwhile.

@soloudinhere

I think this goes to the difference between cash flow vs income.

I need the cash flow from boarding in order to support the things that need to be bought/done every month.

At the end of the year, on paper, I make very little, but that cash flow funds the farm and property. The farm makes money but not book profit .

When taking advantage of all the tax pass throughs that are available as far as depreciating buildings, plus depreciable assets like equipment and sales horses, my “income” comes from the taxes I don’t pay on the cash flow coming in every month.

This strategy can absolutely work on rental properties as well as board barns. They can have good cash flow for the landlord, but when the taxes are done, on paper depreciation takes away all or most of the profit. Of course the depreciation reflects the money tied up in the investment into the property (or business).

But it has to be noted that a mortgage payment - or lease payments if one doesn’t own the barn property - can pull off enough cash that this may or may not be a way to earn enough cash for gas and groceries every month.

Also anything involving a property asset needs a lot of cash cushion to take care of inevitable repairs when essential things break. If that isn’t being set aside, the costs of repairs alone can start to jeopardize the cash flow – and the business.

[hey101]

In person Interview is key. I’ve long moved my mentality from “showing the place to get you in here” to “are you the right fit for my place”.

The contract is “first 30 days” I can cancel and you have to leave within another 30 days. In any case i do month to month, but I clearly spell out that you are on trial for 30 days.

Go with your gut- if you get an odd vibe, it’s probably correct. We all know horse people can be crazy!

My place comfortably fits 20, I have 5 of my own. My minimum is 5 per party. I do allow clients lessons etc but no young kids. (I have kids of my own and I love them but I’m not dealing with lesson kid plus the siblings running around while mom watches lesson)

Questions I ask- have you managed your own place before? How many horses have you managed? What is your business model? Tell me about your clientele.

I don’t mind if a group of people get together to do a self care consortium, but I get paid by one person and they have to sub manage.I don’t care if the other people leave, I have a contract with one person and they are responsible for the rent.

First month rent plus equal deposit.

I’m responsible for general property maintenance but if your horse breaks a waterer, fence etc you fix it. It’s no skin off my back if you have to hang buckets while you replace the waterer that your horse broke. If you don’t fix it, it comes out of your security deposit.

One of the biggest ones is liability insurance- if I ask you what your current insurance is and naming my facilty as an insured party, do you say absolutely no problem or do you look at me like “what are you talking about, I don’t have insurance”

Beyond interview, ask for two previous references, and social media is golden for back story. Am I dealing with a disgruntled barn hopper? No thank you!

The above may sounds harsh, but truly- if you do good due diligence up front, it’s so possible to get a good group of people in. For me the model is working great and have a number of folks here that are a ton of fun. We have barn parties all the time. I’m not stressing that they are pissed that their horse didn’t get that extra flake and how much it cost me, it’s their deal.

It’s an idea for people who may have a place that they could offer out- I’ve made mistakes along the way, and I will NEVER offer boarding again. But I truly enjoy now the model I have created

[Horselove5]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

I feel this is why the boarding barns are surviving in my area are those catering to higher-end markets (i.e., offering showing and full training) who are less price-sensitive about increases in board. And unfortunately, the ones catering to the lower end of the market are offering genuinely substandard care. It’s one thing not to have a heated wash stall and quite another thing to have crappy hay. I’ve often seen people who just look at the monthly cost of boarding because it’s what they can afford, and then realize that there’s a reason the board was so cheap and there were empty stalls, even if the BO put up a good front and kept in the crazy during the first meeting.

Yes! We probably live in the same area, lol! I’ve not been boarding in one of those $2k to $4k a month fancy show barns, but neither in the cheapest ~$350ish places. Nevertheless, I’ve changed some barns in the mid-higher price range and noticed that none of them offers fully the quality of care we had back home in Germany.
I don’t consider it a proper care when horses are left overnight with no water at 80F weather (because the unmotivated personnel regularly forgets to check, so it’s left to individual boarders), feeding all horses on the property from the same haynets (really?!), having foot deep holes in the pasture or telling me horses only get fed before/after BO goes/comes from her main work (heavy traffic in the area)! True stories from 3 different places…
I’m not a problematic boarder, don’t require fancy facilities or even covered arena and have no issues to pay for additional services or to muck and clean after myself (and I’ve done self care as well, where my boarding price, which was way above the local one for such facilities, was increased with no further explanation within the first 3w of our stay). I do know what a quality care means though and require it for what I pay. Again, I pay for additional services without issues and am happy that the money goes directly to the Mexican grooms, without whom my current BO will go bankrupt (not only cuz they’re cheap labor, but also - who else is willing to muck out barns out here in CA?!). They are not professional (nor highly motivated) grooms, but we all are very grateful to have them in the barn!

[findeight]

Are they legal and independent or part of a crew with a boss man through whom all communication goes since “they dont speak English”, who holds the papers and IDs for the crew since “they don’t have a safe place to keep them” and who handles the wages and tips for all since they “ don’t have a safe place to keep it”? Sound familiar?

I was shocked after taking company required training in recognizing human trafficking. Spoke to a few Immigration officers to clarify. Seems various barns I was in over the decades and groom crews at some shows shows exactly fit the warning signs of HT.

Think about it. ASK BO or M so you don’t unknowingly participate in something far worse then taking advantage of underpaid, undocumented workers used by BOs and trainers to cut their costs.

[Small_Change]

This may be a stupid question, but for those of you who sign boarding contracts, do you resign new contracts with increases in price, or is there an addendum to the original, or…? I’m just curious as to how it is navigated in a more professional set up, when it isn’t simply based on verbal notification and a hand shake.

[Horselove5]

No, they’re independent and live more than 20y in the area (their kids are born and raised in CA), so this is not an issue for the 2 barns with Mexican grooms, we were at. But indeed human trafficking is quite serious and shouldn’t be supported in any way.

[findeight]

In barns that are run like a business with contracts, typically clients will receive an updated contract to sign agreeing to the change within xx days or vacate the property if there are any substantial changes like an increase in board and/or other charges or changes in operating procedures like operating hours or something. Minor changes can be handled with an addendum signed by both parties.

Many barns are not so professionally run don’t bother with contracts so anything goes and they can do whatever they want whenever they want.

IME barns with contracts have wording specifying 30 days notice of any changes on either barn or client side, most have given 60 days for substantial changes. For me, increases have never been a surprise in a well run, well managed barn.

Many good barns require annual contract renewal and handle their changes that way. Not a bad idea to avoid surprises.

[OverandOnward]

@hey101

…’
The above may sounds harsh, but truly- if you do good due diligence up front, it’s so possible to get a good group of people in. For me the model is working great and have a number of folks here that are a ton of fun. We have barn parties all the time. I’m not stressing that they are pissed that their horse didn’t get that extra flake and how much it cost me, it’s their deal.

It’s an idea for people who may have a place that they could offer out- I’ve made mistakes along the way, and I will NEVER offer boarding again. But I truly enjoy now the model I have created

Doesn’t sound harsh at all, to me. It sounds like a standard job interview and surface background check.

I think you probably have the right approach that you are looking to see if they are a fit, rather than trying to convince them that this is the place to be. Another BO I know approaches every prospective boarder this way, and tells them “I need to be sure that each boarder is a good fit for this barn”. She rarely has any boarder drama. Boarders who were strangers become friends and end up doing horse stuff together.

Thank you for the tips !!!

[clanter]

@findeight

IME barns with contracts have wording specifying 30 days notice of any changes on either barn or client side, most have given 60 days for substantial changes.

well why even have a contract if either party can void it with 30 days notice?

I have executed property leases for warehouse that are five years or longer… nothing can be altered once fully executed, there may or may not be an extension clause guaranteeing renewal for a set cost for set time

But a 30 day contract, that is nothing more than a month to month agreement

[OverandOnward]

@clanter

well why even have a contract if either party can void it with 30 days notice?

I have executed property leases for warehouse that are five years or longer… nothing can be altered once fully executed, there may or may not be an extension clause guaranteeing renewal for a set cost for set time

But a 30 day contract, that is nothing more than a month to month agreement

Because the contract sets for the terms of the agreement while horse & boarder are in residence.

What difference does the 30 days notice make? Once boarder and BO have parted ways then of course the contract is no longer needed. No different from an extended period contract.

Many, many occupancy contracts of all kinds are month-to-month, with 30 days notice on either side. They need agreement terms while the occupancy is still in place.

Month-to-month contracts can last for years upon years. I know of two that were in existence for over 20+ years. They needed the agreement terms for each of the months during those 20+ years, just as any occupancy contract needs them. The terms are valid until either party gives notice and the occupancy and contract end.