Racking Horse Bit? Training help?

[jumper19]

In a few weeks I am goin gto begin my training with a 5 year old Racking horse, Kenzie, for a Boarder at my barn. Being an eventer, I’m a little fuzzy when it comes to gaited horses, but I’ve done alot of research and seeing as the owner only wants a well-behaved trail horse,I have faith we can work together. But before I dive into the training of this horse,I need to find a bit she can work with. The owner currently has her in a full cheek snaffle, which is definately not right. It does nothingfor her and Kenzie just runs right through it. Is there certain bits made ecspecially for Racking horses, or on a cheaper note does anyone know of another bit that’ll get her to listen to me, at least until we have gone further in training?

At the moment her training consists of another boarder promising to “set her straight”, by running her into the ground until she’s so tired she has no choice but to do what is asked of her. I am first off going to do about one or two weeks worth of groundwork to get the basics in her head before putting them to use with me on her back. She has no idea where to put her feet to gait properly and hopefully that will give her the idea. Does anyone have any suggestions on training her? I know that seems like I have no idea what I’m doing, but in actuality I would just like some feedback from an outside source to make sure I’m on the right path in getting Kenzie where she needs to be, a reliable pleasure horse.

[Kellye]

My first suggestion is to keep her out of the round pen for your gait work. Gaited horses tend to become very “trotty” if asked to do circles, so you’ll want to do lots of long straight lines to help her get her gait “set”, once you’re under saddle. The round pen is just fine for establishing leadership and all that good stuff. But if you ask her to gait in circles, you could mess up her gait and have a whole new set of problems.

There are just as many walking horse bits out there as there are any other kind of bit. Start with a basic walking horse bit with a solid mouthpiece, low port, curb chain and medium length shanks. This bit will provide good support for your gait work and should give the horse something more substantial to “lean” on. And if you’ve never worked with a gaited horse, I’d suggest you do some homework before you work with the horse.

[Guilherme]

A young horse “running through the bit” is a training problem, not an equipment problem. Somebody needs to teach the horse to yield to the bit.

Note that if this were a 10 year old horse I might suggest using a stronger curb bit, or maybe a Pelham, to “get their attention.” At this age, however, that should not be required.

That said, if there’s been a lot of “foundational ill behavior” tollerated you might have to treat the horse like the older horse. A lot depends on what the owner and/or other humans have accepted. Have you seen the horse move? Have you observed it around humans? Is it respectful and obedient? Or something else?

There is no physiological or biomechanical reason for a Racking Horse to be ridden in a curb, although you will see many that are. Mostly you’ll see it because of “kick and jerk” equitation or a failure to train the horse to yield to the bit (as above). Very rarely you’ll see one in curb, or even a double bridle in some classic Saddle Seat riding, that is in fact a very well trained horse and the curb permits higher levels of performance.

The plan for this horse, as stated, does not seem to contemplate that kind of work.

Your plan is generally sound. You lay a foundation with a gaited horse just like you do with any other (walk, gait, canter; stop; transitions; turn left and right on direct rein; back a step or two; stand quietly for mount and dismount). Treat the horse like would a TB or WB or any other horse. Don’t worry about the “purity” of gait or whether it’s doing a correct rack. As long as it will smoothly transition up and down that’s all you need for now.

Some racking horses, particularly those that are very lateral, have difficulty with the canter. Others do not. This is something you’ll have to assess when you begin ground work.

At the risk of starting ANOTHER “shoeing thread” take a look at the feet. The horse should be trimmed to anatomical correctness and the foot balanced laterally and A/P. If shod it should be a standard “keg” shoe (not a Plantation or any kind of weighted shoe; those are for the show ring not the trail).

Most Racking Horses are pretty level headed (unless out of a “hot” show line) and are fairly easy to train for what the owner seems to want. Again, at the level you’ll be working, there’s no reason for any sort of “specialized” gaited horse knowledge. Set him straight and ride him forward!!!

Good luck with your project.

G.

[katarine]

Gaited or not, any young horse ought to LEARN how to yield to, and respond to, a Plain Old Snaffle. Whoa well off your seat and hand and voice. relax. bend laterally. Walk a nice circle on direct rein.

The only time a shanked bit would even begin to come into consideration, would be after they’d graduated from a plain old walk and a great whoa to a little titch of a rack, and they seemed bothered by the junction of the snaffle. Rackers often want to balance on that bit a little, so a mullen mouth or other solid mouth or multipiece mouth is better - i.e. no one joint to bang them in the roof of the mouth. Maybe then they’d like it.

Do not attempt circles at first, not in gait, too hard on them. Long straight lines.

If you really do, in your gut, believe a bit will make the gait, best wishes but no harm meant, you’re riding down the less ideal path. Consider Lee Zeigler’s great book Easy Gaited Horses. It will help you understand they have to be broke first, then worry about gait. They are JUST horses, first.

Best wishes!

[Kellye]

Sorry, I didn’t realize the horse was so green. I thought at the age of 5, you’d be doing more “tuning up” when you said you’d be riding her for her owner. But I disagree about the bit. I’ve seen and ridden too many gaited horses that gaited better with a nice, easy walking horse bit, rather than a jointed snaffle. They seem to prefer the simplicity of the low port (or mullen mouth as someone else suggested), a little leverage for support and soft contact from their rider. Of course, there are some that will gait nicely in a snaffle of some sort, but obviously, not this horse.

Hey, it’s just my opinion, based on my experience. I think you’ll get alot of opinions, and you can decide for yourself which suggestions may work for your situation. No one of us is completely right all the time for every horse.

[Renae]

If you do not have any experience with gaited horses I would not accept this horse for training. This person has a gaited horse for a trail horse most likely because they want it to gait well and be comfortable to ride. You admit you have no experience with gaited horses, you will not know what to do if the horse is too trotty or pacey, you will not know how to teach it to gait smoothly and efficiently nor how to teach the rider to ask for a correct, comfortable gait. If you are truly a professional you would recommend this customer find a trainer who has experience with training gaited trail horses. I mainly drive and ride saddle seat, if someone brought me a green eventer I would kindly pass and suggest resources where they could find a more knowledgeable trainer. Just because I know how to ride a horse does not mean I know how to lay the foundation for a horse’s career as an eventer, just the same as you knowing how to ride a horse doesn’t mean you will be able to succesfully lay this horse’s foundation as a good trail horse that gaits well.

Guilherme you don’t ride Walking Horses or Racking horses in double bridles in saddle seat, only the trotting breeds (Arabians, Morgans, Saddlebreds, etc), and there are many that are very well trained with riders who ride in good form. And you do need to worry about the purity of the gait when training a green gaited horse. If the trainer teaches the horse to hard pace it will be very difficult to retrain the horse to do a smooth four beat gait when the owner discovers that their gaited horse is doing a rough uncomfortable gait.

[Guilherme]

For what this trainer is being asked to do “gaited horse” experience is not required.

There’s no reason why a double bridle can’t be used on a gaited horse to get enhanced performance. IIRC Helen Crabtree has them illustrated in her book. It’s on loan right no so I can’t check it.

G.

[BaileyTW]

You will eventually have to teach it to gait. I would suggest once you start under saddle work to walk, walk, walk, in the ring, up and down hills, everywhere, and then when the horse feels strong and comfortable at a walk, then ask it to gait. if you go for gait too early it will learn to trot or pace.
Also, if the horse seems uneven consider having a chiro look at it. my TWH seemed a little off and wan’t gaiting too consistently and the chiro came out, adjusted him and Voila! he was a racking machine! Even at liberty in the pasture. Apparently this is a somewhat common problem, according to some people over on another forum.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;3325275]
For what this trainer is being asked to do “gaited horse” experience is not required.

There’s no reason why a double bridle can’t be used on a gaited horse to get enhanced performance. IIRC Helen Crabtree has them illustrated in her book. It’s on loan right no so I can’t check it.

G.[/QUOTE]

Helen Crabtree’s “Saddle Seat Equitation” mainly discusses saddle seat equitation on Saddlebreds, which walk, trot and canter in saddle seat equitation classes. There is a chapter on Walking Horse Equitation in that book, in which it shows the proper use of a single curb bit as is appropriate. You do not show Walking Horses or Racking Horses in a double bridle and as such there would be little reason to ever train them in one, especially for the purposes of making a good trail horse. A Five Gaited Saddlebred is a completely different animal form a Walking Horse or Racking Horse.

And as a person who has seen some trail horses taught to gait very poorly, mostly those that have been taught to hard pace, I highly disagree that you need no gaited horse experience for the “simple” task of training a gaited trail horse. The owner’s whole point to getting a gaited trail horse, one can assume, is so that they will have a smooth ride. A person who is novice to gaited horses can easily teach a horse to gait incorrectly and once muscles and mind have been developed it can be very hard to retrain. The horse may be a Racking Horse by breed but a true rack is probably not even the gait that should be encouraged for this horse to learn as its trail gait, a stepping pace or running walk would be much more appropriate, much easier for a horse to maintain over long distances. The horse may also be taught to rack correctly when more speed is desired, most gaited horses can learn to do 2-3 different gaits when trained correctly, but as I said a poorly trained gaited horse often times falls into doing a hard pace as its one and only gait.

BaileyTW, I agree with you, if the OP is going to try to train this horse stick only to the walk, walk and walk in a snaffle bit and work on basic handling and manners. Let the walk be loose and swingy, don’t cramp the horse’s walk and try to collect it. Let someone who knows what they are doing gait the horse correctly from the start.

[gabz]

jumper - you’ve received some great advice about what’s needed to train a gaited horse. - if you’ve never ridden one, or worked with one, I strongly advise hiring someone who knows how to train them.

THere are many “gaits” to gaited horses. and if the horse is not ridden correctly, any inborn, natural gait will be muddied and it will take longer to fix that. The rack, foxtrot, 4-beat gait, running walk, etc. are all slightly different.

so far as the jointed full-cheek… perhaps short-shanked ported bit would be more suitable. Or… as discussed in another thread, the Robart pinchless
http://www.pinchlessbits.com/ the top left bit called the “Pat” …
this bit reaches forward in the horse’s mouth and encourages the horse to lean into the bit while their head and neck are upright (which is required to achieve one of the Racking horse’s gaits).

Round penning/ lunging is not recommended unless the horse is allowed to use any gait in its repetoire.

so far as running through the bit - yes, that’s mostly training - but a bit that hurts the horse only upsets them and they only think about that discomfort. a single jointed bit - other than the myler and robart pinchless - is a painful bit.

good luck helping your client find the right trainer.

[Arrow]

[QUOTE=Renae;3325242]
If you do not have any experience with gaited horses I would not accept this horse for training. This person has a gaited horse for a trail horse most likely because they want it to gait well and be comfortable to ride. You admit you have no experience with gaited horses, you will not know what to do if the horse is too trotty or pacey, you will not know how to teach it to gait smoothly and efficiently nor how to teach the rider to ask for a correct, comfortable gait. If you are truly a professional you would recommend this customer find a trainer who has experience with training gaited trail horses. I mainly drive and ride saddle seat, if someone brought me a green eventer I would kindly pass and suggest resources where they could find a more knowledgeable trainer. [/QUOTE]

I second this opinion.

ETA–whoops, I third it! Sorry gabz!

[Guilherme]

I disagree that a good trainer with no gait experience will in any way harm a horse’s natural way of going by using classical training techniques.

I also disagree that a young horse must be “trained” to gait.

If a horse is born with a native “soft gait” then that’s what they have. Like the color of their eyes or the color of thier coat or the the thickness of their mane or their height. It is what it is.

Now, IF you are involved in breed or discipline that rewards or forbids some way of going THEN you may need some specialized help. Gait exists on a spectrum from the pace to the trot (inclusive). The “soft” gaits exclude the pace and trot but include everything else between them. ANY horse can be moved some amount on that spectrum by use of tack, foot gear, riding style, or some combination. That includes teaching a pacer to trot or a trotter to pace. But if the horse is born with soft gait then that gait exists no matter what the human might do to alter it. Remove the human influence and the native gait will return (unless the horse has been physically altered, preventing that return).

Many “gaited horse trainers” don’t like this because it harms their income. They WANT to leave the impression that a soft gait is somehow complicated. With the aid of breeders, farriers, gait enthusiasts, etc. they spin they web of mystery that is really just a chimera.

If you are involved in a specific breed or discipline that demands a specific way of going then there will be rules. But these rules are artificial and oft times quite arbitrary. If you want to show a Walker at the Celebration in a Performance horse class you MUST be in stacks. That’s a rule of the Celebration. If you want to show a Paso Fino you cant’ have shoes at all. You can find similar rules in almost EVERY gaited breed/discipline. But those rules are every bit as arbitrary and artificial as the Celebration’s rule about stacks or the Paso Fino rule about no shoes.

I don’t see the OP training this horse for the Racking Horse Celebration, so I don’t see where she needs to use any more than her native good sense in working with the horse to prepare it to be a trail horse. Ride the horse in a classical dressage or centered riding seat and there won’t be any problems with “muddying” the native gait. On the trail does anybody REALLY care if it moves in a running walk, stepping pace, or rack? Or even a foxtrot? Only one might be correct in a venue where gait is judged but I don’t know of too many trails that are haunted by Racking Horse judges.

A good rider/trainer will always get the best from the horse under them. And teach that horse what it needs to know to be a good “equine citizen.” The type of intermediate gait is pretty much irrelelvant when you look at The Big Picture in this type of training.

And, of course, on the orginal question this is a training issue, not an equipment issue.

G.

[katarine]

Not all ‘soft gaited’ horses are splat, born hitting the ground ready to rack/rw/etc- undersaddle clickety click. LOL no way. Lee Zeigler’s great book helps peeps learn how to shape that gait. My big baby SSH/TWH is lanky and lazy and will hard pace if allowed to get sloppy. Get her motivated and she’s run walking fool. she’s with a gaited oriented trainer to put miles on her and ride her INTO her good soft gait. A trainer who doesn’t know what a run walk is vs an almost there step pace vs a cute rack won’t know what the hey the horse is doing…and IMO the OP will need to know what she’s feeling in her seat and how to best rebalance or reshape said feel into what’s wanted.

Gaited is not some great mystery. But it is different.

[jeano]

Katarine you beat me to it! I’ll second third and fourth that the OP run, not walk, or maybe runwalk to get a copy of Ziegler’s “Easy Gaited Horses.” That and Google Liz Graves, a protege of Ziegler’s who has a website with some good info.

My other thoughts, as someone new to gaited breeds who purchased a racking horse 2 yrs ago and has expanded my knowledge base by getting a Walker a bit over 1 year ago–they are just horses, but there are some things you are better off not bothering with, like too much roundpenning with rackers, ditto trying to get laterally gaited horses to be collected. Ziegler recommends a lot of work in the flat walk before asking for gaits. She goes into great detail on how to elicit the various gaits by using one’s seat and weight. Her book has helped me learn how to ask my horses for their very different gaits. My walker was a hard trotting prancer who is now, after a year of work, a real pleasure to ride. His running walk is getting better and better. The racking horse delivers a saddle rack and the stepping pace, both comfortable trail gaits, and lately she, too, has been getting in touch with her inner walking horse. These horses are both barefoot, both very good trail horses.

Since they have been with me they have not had the benefit of an experienced horse trainer or gaited horse rider, but they gait nicely and are sound and sane. ( No thanks to me, many thanks to the late Ms Ziegler.)

When I got my racking mare she would run through about any bit, was always rushing, prone to bolting. She does fine in a full cheek or plain D snaffle now. The TWH does not care much for jointed bits, I have him in mild curbs, one with a billy allen mouthpiece, the other in a medium port Kimberwick. He LOFFS the dreaded Imus bit, too. Both horses will do okay with a three piece cowboy pelham, and either can go fine in a low port short shanked walking horse bit. So just see what works. A lot of gaited horse have gone straight from a sidepull to a curb, bypassing the snaffle altogether, in their initial training. Be aware also that if the horse’s preferred intermediate gait involves a lot of head nod (runwalk or foxtrot) or side to side head/neck motion (amble or step pace) that some things like reins that snap to the bit or bosals will aggravate them.

[scrtwh]

“Gaited or not, any young horse ought to LEARN how to yield to, and respond to, a Plain Old Snaffle. Whoa well off your seat and hand and voice. relax. bend laterally. Walk a nice circle on direct rein.”
:yes:

Circles aren’t going to hurt the horse. The basic 20m dressage circle is fabulous for getting that inside leg under and pushing off and balancing the horse. Lots of slow deliberate walking, getting hind under the animal. Ask for collection, with contact, but enough flexibility in your wrists so the horse can free up his neck and back.

[gabz]

To put things straight about the Imus bit.

The design and function of the GOG bit is superb. She copied it from another company (and was taken to court about patent infringement). My bit of trivia is about the mechanical failure, i.e., the bit has fallen apart with a couple of people that I know, that purchased them. In less than 18 months.

If you want that bit, that’s fine. In fact, why not buy the original version for less money? (Robart pinchless from Metalab).

[GallopingGrape]

NO Walking Horse Bits… Please! Keep her in the snaffle, get a good gaited horse trainer and Lee’s book… I say good “gaited horse” trainer because I have a gaited horse too… He was trotty, trotty trotty, and I could not get him to gait properlty (I was new to gaited horses.) I went to two different trainers, and no luck. Then I found a WONDERFUL gaited horse trainer, Joe London, in Virginia and within 5 minutes, my gelding was gaiting (rack, saddle rack) all over the place… I ride him in a kimberwick, with a straight mouth piece, slightly rounded for tonge relief.

PLEASE NO WALKING HORSE BITS… :eek:

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=katarine;3326820]
Not all ‘soft gaited’ horses are splat, born hitting the ground ready to rack/rw/etc- undersaddle clickety click. LOL no way.[/QUOTE]

Note that I never said this!

I said that each horse has it’s own native way of going. If required by breed standard or discipline or other arbitrary human definition then some “gait shaping” (to use a kind phrase) might be in order. But for the project the OP put forward NONE of that is true. This horse needs to learn respect, to yield to the bit, and to make transitions between gaits. More a trail horse does not need in terms of the gait work it will do.

A good trail horse does need to know how to back around obsticles, turn on the haunches and forhand, basic lateral work, “patience,” etc. These skills can be imparted after the basic project is done.

It does NOT need to know any gait beyond that which Nature gave it as long as said gait is soft.

And, as we have strayed from the original question, I’ll repeat that this is a training problem, not an equipment problem.

G.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;3327013]

It does NOT need to know any gait beyond that which Nature gave it as long as said gait is soft. [/QUOTE]

But a naturally soft gaited horse that is ridden and trained poorly can very easily be taught to hard trot or pace or to gait in a manner that causes it undue strain for the task at hand when ridden by someone who does not know what the different gaits are and how to ask a horse to shape its gaits. Just throwing it up in the air and hoping it lands correctly won’t work unless the OP is dealing with an unusually good horse, most horses of any breed need help shaping their gaits for what their task in life will be, and the gaited trail horse is no different.

[katarine]

Guilherme says…It does NOT need to know any gait beyond that which Nature gave it as long as said gait is soft.

How is that really any different than what I posted, really? Noted here:

Not all ‘soft gaited’ horses are splat, born hitting the ground ready to rack/rw/etc- undersaddle clickety click. LOL no way.

Really, G, you DID say that…different words same message. You are acting like all one needs to do is sit up there and let it be what God/Nature made it and soft gaits will just happen. That’s just flat Not True with any horse. Any at all. RARE is the QH that just lopes out soft and pretty and broke at the poll. Rare is the TB that floats over the ground, using his tummy effectively, lifting through the back, etc…

You would assert any and all dressage type riding is a waste of time: one need only ride and It Will Happen.

I want what you’re smoking! Sure would make riding simpler if the key was to just let it happen as Nature intended!