[QUOTE=DownYonder;3257316]
But it’s a tall order asking a 5 y/o to show relaxation and brilliance at the same time in a scary indoor arena! [/QUOTE]
I know that at least some of those youngsters train in an indoor arena at home, though granted those arenas may not be as spooky as Raleigh’s.
YH results at Raleigh
I hope that something can be done about the harsh comments. I don’t understand why it has been so difficult for the judges to give critical comments without being degrading and insulting. Isn’t that what our USDF judges progam teaches? It is unfortunate that the reputation of this competition is that the judges are very critical and rip the riders apart. This is not the first year that this has been the comment. Even last year the first day was critical but the second day the judges comments were more constructive. Why should the judges need to be ‘spoken’ to? Why wouldn’t they want to give comments that the riders can use for improvement?
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3257368]
Actually, good question. Have any of the judges ridden them, in competition?[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing the answer to that one is probably NO as most of these judges don’t compete any more. I wonder how many of them have even sat on a 5 y/o lately.
Wasn’t there a training session for judges this winter in Florida that focused specifically on judging the Y/H classes? It would be really interesting to know how many of the judges at this year’s qualifiers / selection trials attended that session, and what they were told regarding how to structure their comments.
[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3257350]
Well it would seem only fair that if they are going to select venues for these final tests they should be comparable with respect to the facilities. If this indoor at Raleigh is a problem and other venues didn’t have this to deal with - how can these selection finals be on the same level?[/QUOTE]
Good point, but what is the alternative? There is no way to ensure that ALL the qualifying sites offer identical conditions. For instance, the West Coast qualifier was disrupted by heavy rain. If you hold the classes outside, you run the risk of weather problems. If you hold the classes inside, you run the risk of the young horses feeling claustrophobic. There is no easy answer.
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3257371]
I know that at least some of those youngsters train in an indoor arena at home, though granted those arenas may not be as spooky as Raleigh’s.[/QUOTE]
Very good point - training in your home indoor, where it is probably fairly quiet and peaceful, is very different from going into a big indoor like Raleigh. Heck, even older, seasoned campaigners are often intimidated by that kind of atmosphere.
[QUOTE=dressagefriend;3255713]
Qualifying for the Selection Trails this year was different than last years requirements. If you did not go to Florida the opportunity to qualify is hard to find. In the Midwest Paxtons was the first opportunity to qualify for the Selection Trials being held at Lamplight. For some people Raleigh is just so far away. Hopefully next year they will let you get your qualifying scores again at the Selection Trials. This is such a great program for our gifted horses here in the U.S.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they have made it much harder to qualify this year. For instance, only two of the seven shows in my state this year applied to be official qualifiers for the National Championships, and they were both in April. My guy didn’t arrive until late March, so there was no way to qualify him without trailering 6-8 hours away to another state. We are now reevaluating this program to see if it is even feasible to participate in it. It is hugely expensive, with classes costing $35-$40 more than regular classes, and the high cost of fuel makes going out of state a very, very pricey endeavor. It is really pretty discouraging.
On the same token though, if they can’t compete in Raleigh’s indoor, which isn’t that bad, then maybe they aren’t ready to travel to Europe.
[QUOTE=ponyjumper4;3257605]
On the same token though, if they can’t compete in Raleigh’s indoor, which isn’t that bad, then maybe they aren’t ready to travel to Europe.[/QUOTE]
Well finally, someone has a clue!
[QUOTE=ponyjumper4;3257605]
On the same token though, if they can’t compete in Raleigh’s indoor, which isn’t that bad, then maybe they aren’t ready to travel to Europe.[/QUOTE]
See HSheffield’s post #7 -
“Verden is outside so there is no advantage in subjecting these youngsters to an environment that makes it hard for them to show themselves off.”
Besides, Verden is still two months away - young horses can mature a lot over the summer.
Thank you ponyjumper, the Raleigh venue isn’t any worse than any other venue. The scoring from what I witnessed was pretty spot on.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;3257625]
See HSheffield’s post #7 -
“Verden is outside so there is no advantage in subjecting these youngsters to an environment that makes it hard for them to show themselves off.”
Besides, Verden is still two months away - young horses can mature a lot over the summer.[/QUOTE]
What’s happened to the part of training that is OBEDIENCE???
The judges have to judge on what they see during that test - they cannot “take into consideration” the fact that an indoor might be scary or that a stroller spooked the horse or someone dropped something that made a loud bang, or whatever - none of it matters. There are no “do-overs”, so if the horse was tense or spooky, it will get a lower score. Doesn’t matter if the judges have ridden a young horse or not - they are judging the performance they see in front of them, not what they think the horse can/should do. The remarks should be tactful, but you can’t control that either. And I agree with the previous comment regarding Verden - THAT is a tense atmosphere that will spook a horse more than the Raleigh indoor. Its just bad luck that the young horses were tense or didn’t like the arena - hope for better luck next time!
[QUOTE=Maria;3257631]
Thank you ponyjumper, the Raleigh venue isn’t any worse than any other venue. The scoring from what I witnessed was pretty spot on.[/QUOTE]
That isn’t my understanding at all, from plenty of people who have shown there. That indoor can be very intimidating to green horses, and doubly so for the ones that aren’t used to working in an indoor.
I can’t say about the scoring. River Side Lady had an average of 8.32 going into Raleigh, but that was from just one show (Florida Dressage Concours in February, under judges Yukins and Fore), and Ronatella had an average of 8.22, again from just one show (Greater Atlanta Dressage Southern in April, judges Ludwig and Hastings). So either one set of judges were off in their scoring somewhere, or the horses just didn’t have as good a go in Raleigh as they did at the other shows.
[QUOTE=dq140;3257642]
What’s happened to the part of training that is OBEDIENCE???[/QUOTE]
You are right and that is reflected in the score for Submissiveness. A scared youngster that has to be finessed around an intimidating indoor arena is going to get dinged there.
Have you shown at Raleigh Down Under?
I have. And in the indoor.
I was also there this year and watched the young horse classes.
ANY show venue can be intimidating for a young horse.
It’s good experience to get these horses out and about. If these are our future World class horses…
Not having a young horse out there this year, and having done this program with our stallion, Don Principe, I have some thoughts.
Raleigh’s indoor is tough, even for older seasoned horses. Verden is outdoors. HOWEVER, there are literally several arenas, grandstands, a racetrack, hundreds of other horses and spectators all around. If you can’t deal with a tough situation here, Verden is not going to be any easier to cope with. Especially with the stress of travel and climate changes added to the competition issues.
I DO agree, a good number of the judges I have heard over the years really do not seem to know how to evaluate these classes. They hit a young horse HARD, if he looks around, is tense, or not going forward enough( read throwing front end around) or collected enough( they seem to be looking for a 4th level frame in 6 yr olds!)[at the qualifing shows- not finals]. In the directives for judging these tests, it states that a young horse is to be forgiven “young horse behavior” as long as the horse is obedient and does the movement.
Yet you often hear from judges “since he was not accepting the bit, or was tense, or…in the trot or canter or whatever” they subtract points from that gait and THEN subtract points for the submission score, hitting that horse twice for the same thing. It is my impression that the judge is supposed to be judging ONLY the gait–submission has it’s own score. If anyone who is a judge can correct me on this, I am open to learning if this is different.
Judges can be critical, but need to be encouraging as well. I have had the privledge of having our stallion compete as a 6 yr old and now as a Developing Horse. I have been at the Finals several times and, for the most part, the judges there have been more than polite, as well as constructive, about comments ( other than one time two yrs ago). I do however hear several judges (must be an S or better) at qualifiers make inappropriate comments.
One thing always confuses me–How can a horse that does a regular USEF test and scores 8 on gaits, manage to deteriorate to a 5 or 6 in all her/his gaits from the same judge at the same show. Horse performing at about the same quality in both tests.
Just MHO
Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
www.sporthorsestallionexpo.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!
[QUOTE=RP;3257655]
The judges have to judge on what they see during that test - they cannot “take into consideration” the fact that an indoor might be scary or that a stroller spooked the horse or someone dropped something that made a loud bang, or whatever - none of it matters. There are no “do-overs”, so if the horse was tense or spooky, it will get a lower score. Doesn’t matter if the judges have ridden a young horse or not - they are judging the performance they see in front of them, not what they think the horse can/should do. The remarks should be tactful, but you can’t control that either. And I agree with the previous comment regarding Verden - THAT is a tense atmosphere that will spook a horse more than the Raleigh indoor. Its just bad luck that the young horses were tense or didn’t like the arena - hope for better luck next time![/QUOTE]
I agree - just saying that it is a shame the indoor was intimidating to some of the youngsters. And yes, Verden is a very electric atmosphere - but add a tense atmosphere to a claustrophobic indoor and it’s no wonder the young horses were nervous at Raleigh. Besides, you can’t “hope for better luck next time” - there is no next time for those trying to qualify for this year’s trip to Verden.
Yes the Judges have to score what they see but the reality of ripping people apart makes no logical sense. When you compete in regular dressage shows - you get your scores and hopefully can look at your test to see comments before you ride again. To subject people to something like a “Rider Idol” situation really requires a rather seasoned rider. So this process seems to say - Amateurs need not apply. Constructiive remarks allow the rider to process what the issues are and take that into the next ride. Snipey rudeness results in raising the emotional level of any person and certainly isn’t constructive.
And yes the horses would have 2 months to focus on Verden and yes the venue at Verden is very busy - I’ve been to that showgrounds - but NO - they riders aren’t treated without respect. If a rider is just lousy - I’m sure there are tactful ways to get that across - but honestly that question to the rider about if they’ve ever ridden …before certainly shouts to anyone considering this …HEY - if you aren’t an International competitor - don’t show up.
[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3257734]
So this process seems to say - Amateurs need not apply.[/QUOTE]
I’m starting to wonder how many professionals will want to apply. What professional trainer want to hear over a PA system - in front of possibly hundreds of spectators - that their riding sucks? Methinks the riders in the Y/H program need a very, very thick skin! :lol:
Well, the 5 and 6 yo’s have certainly been out showing by this time, so the spooky arena should not have been so much an issue. Perhaps the lesson is to get your 4 yo out to some shows before the FEI YH qualifiers and see how they react. If they are explosive, then no, perhaps they should not be doing these classes. If they are only explosive at Raleigh, then that is the luck of the draw for that day and a real bummer for the horse and rider - all of us have had really bad rides at inopportune times. Really sorry, but that is what happens at shows - there are no second chances for a test. Perhaps we need more FEI YH classes, but that is something to bring up with the organization in charge of the classes, not blame it on the judging. I agree - the judges should be more tactful in their comments, but again, you cannot control what comes out of their mouths. Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.
I’ve seen the judging change over the years. During the first two years, the explosive horses were rewarded as showing “promise” for the FEI. I’ve seen international riders battle with a bucking/rearing horse, barely able to stay in the arena. Then they won the class, with very high scores and praise from the judges. The quiet horses were given lower scores for not showing “potential”. Seems the tables have turned and now there is criticism for rewarding obedience. Personally, I think its easier to judge an obedient horse than one that is not.
Again, it would be nice to have tactful comments, but there is no guarantee that that is going to happen.
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