Raleigh results - FEI Y/H scores

[hsheffield]

Well said, Marydell.

My impression from the judges’ comments on Sat/Sun was that they weren’t especially happy with the presentation of the horses though the quality was good in the top ones.

With the venue being difficult it can be especially difficult to present all the horses have to offer in that situation. Here are some of the things I saw that made the venue even tougher:

1. on Friday, there was a group of judge candidates sitting right above the judges at C. Several riders told me that their horses took one look at that crowd of ‘mountain lions’ sitting up there and really backed off coming down the center line. A couple of the 5 yo just plain stood on their hind legs and said ‘NO.’ They moved them for Saturday and Sunday but you have to wonder if the horses remembered.

(as a side note, some of the FEI riders were having problems with the crowd behind the judges as well, so it wasn’t just the young ones)

2. On Friday, L MacDonald stood up and spoke on the loudspeaker as some horses were entering the arena. Again,imagine a 5 yo seeing someone stand up as they’re coming down centerline and a loud booming hiss/crack and then a voice comes from the skies. That’s a lot to ask from any horse, but especially a young one.

3. It was hot and the vent/exhaust fans would come on in the middle of the tests. So again imagine, no noise, then a loud whirr comes from above in the middle of a test. Some of the riders said they were surprised by how loud the fans were when you were in the arena as opposed to being in the stands.

so…instead of realizing that the young horses were having a hard time with the venue, LM chose to tell the riders that they didn’t know what they were doing. I imagine some of them were doing everything possible just to keep the horses in the ring, much less on the bit! I’m a little disappointed that she couldn’t tell the difference.

also agree with above, that the scores on Sat/Sun were pretty right on. They have to judge what’s in front of them and they did. They aren’t responsible for what happened previously; I just think it’s a shame that some of the YH had to recover from such a bad experience on Friday and couldn’t show themselves off as well as they might have.

I do wonder with you Marydell why they dinged horses on both gaits and submission when there was a momentary problem with attention/relaxation. Perhaps someone who knows more can comment, it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

[dressagefriend]

It’s just hard to believe that we only have one six year old in this Country that will be invited to go to Verden. I have seen a few Six Year Olds that are talented enought to go. Too bad they won’t be. It is our loss not to have them there.

[dressagefriend]

Horses that are scoring 7.5-8.5 now can certainly change in a couple of months and improve those scores even more. There are quite a few of these horses on the National Ranking List. I look for the horses to improve and get even better over time.

[YankeeLawyer]

There is simply no excuse for any of the judges to be rude. Sometimes I think these people need to get a grip. It is a sport, and I thought the point of young horse classes was to develop and promote young talent. It seems like they are focused too much on sending a message that to compete in Germany, the horse had better be amazing, and not enough on developing all of the other horses competing in these classes. Most of the horses competing are unlikely to ever be internationally competitive. However, many could do a very nice job here. Given that we have a real need in this country, generally, to improve our young horse training and development opportunities, it would be highly unfortunate if a handful of uptight judges who lack tact managed to discourage people from participating in events like these. Assuming the reports on Raleigh are accurate, frankly, I think the judges’ conduct was outrageous.

[DownYonder]

Excellent posts, Marydell and HSheffield. I wasn’t at Raleigh, but much of what HSheffield stated had already been reported to me by several friends that WERE there. It definitely sounds like there was a lot that happened that added to the tense atmosphere there.

I will also add that even though it is understood that the Verden environment is very “busy”, acoustics are quite different in an indoor versus an outdoor (even one surrounded by grandstands, etc.). It’s a lot to ask a young horse to deal with.

Regarding RP’s comment that the Y/H’s have all been out showing this year - five of the top 10 on the USEF 5 y/o rankings had only done ONE 5 y/o test before Raleigh, including the #1 horse, River Side Lady, and the #3 horse, Ronatella S. In the 6 y/o division, 4 of the top 5 have only done TWO 6 y/o shows, and the rest of the top 10 had only done ONE 6 y/o show. Now, they may have been doing OTHER tests at other shows, but those are not reflected on the rankings list.

Please understand that I am not condemning the Raleigh show site, or the judges (with the exception of the rude ones), or the Y/H program. I am just commenting that the Y/H classes at Raleigh were obviously a tough go for most of the horses and riders, so I am commiserating with them.

[slc2]

Europe would probably be 100 times worse than Raleigh.

If they can’t stand it there, they won’t be able to stand it in Europe.

[ise]

I think people should really look at these tests - they are challenging. So I’m sure many horse owners with even FEI potential horses have to ask themselves - why bother? The process keeps changing the venues are not exactly down the road and with rather agressive remarks - it’s a whole lot easier to just do recognized Dressage shows and move up the levels. PLUS - I hope people realize that even if a horse qualifies - the cost of getting to Verden for the competition is huge and any help from our NGB is nothing or minimal.

I honestly don’t really see this program growing - it’s only inching forward now and many people who have put their toe in the water in the past have obviously not returned. And let’s be honest those “loudspeaker” comments aren’t like the comments on a dressage test - they are out there for all ears to hear whether they are correct or not. More often than not - one bad day with public comments - can stick with a horse forever.

[hsheffield]

slc2:

I have been to Verden many times for the World Young Horse Championships and have had several close friends compete there in the YH Champ.s. I can assure you, Verden is a LOT easier and less electric than Raleigh was this weekend.

[slc2]

WOW.

that’s awful. i don’t see any point in making an environment that is not like the goal’s environment. that doesn’t make sense.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=hsheffield;3257818]

1. on Friday, there was a group of judge candidates sitting right above the judges at C. Several riders told me that their horses took one look at that crowd of ‘mountain lions’ sitting up there and really backed off coming down the center line. A couple of the 5 yo just plain stood on their hind legs and said ‘NO.’ They moved them for Saturday and Sunday but you have to wonder if the horses remembered.

(as a side note, some of the FEI riders were having problems with the crowd behind the judges as well, so it wasn’t just the young ones)

2. On Friday, L MacDonald stood up and spoke on the loudspeaker as some horses were entering the arena. Again,imagine a 5 yo seeing someone stand up as they’re coming down centerline and a loud booming hiss/crack and then a voice comes from the skies. That’s a lot to ask from any horse, but especially a young one.

3. It was hot and the vent/exhaust fans would come on in the middle of the tests. So again imagine, no noise, then a loud whirr comes from above in the middle of a test. Some of the riders said they were surprised by how loud the fans were when you were in the arena as opposed to being in the stands.

so…instead of realizing that the young horses were having a hard time with the venue, LM chose to tell the riders that they didn’t know what they were doing. I imagine some of them were doing everything possible just to keep the horses in the ring, much less on the bit! I’m a little disappointed that she couldn’t tell the difference.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the more I hear about the “goings-on” in Raleigh, the more I hope that the competitors find a way to address their concerns to USEF and the Raleigh show management. I am sure that the organizer had very valid reasons for putting those classes in the indoor, but maybe some of this needs to be re-evaluated before next year.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3258031]
I think people should really look at these tests - they are challenging. So I’m sure many horse owners with even FEI potential horses have to ask themselves - why bother? The process keeps changing the venues are not exactly down the road and with rather agressive remarks - it’s a whole lot easier to just do recognized Dressage shows and move up the levels. PLUS - I hope people realize that even if a horse qualifies - the cost of getting to Verden for the competition is huge and any help from our NGB is nothing or minimal.

I honestly don’t really see this program growing - it’s only inching forward now and many people who have put their toe in the water in the past have obviously not returned. And let’s be honest those “loudspeaker” comments aren’t like the comments on a dressage test - they are out there for all ears to hear whether they are correct or not. More often than not - one bad day with public comments - can stick with a horse forever.[/QUOTE]

Very good points, Ilona. I have heard several people say that it runs at least $35,000 to ship to Germany, stay for several weeks prior to the WC to train, compete in the WC, and then come home - probably even more these days, with spiraling fuel costs.

And I really do wonder why our NGB sponsors the selection trials for the WC, but then offers no financial help at all for qualifying horses to get to Verden. It needs to put its money (tee-hee, OUR money) where its mouth is!

[hsheffield]

FYI:

the USEF is giving about $10K per combo this year. I wonder since only 1 horse qualified if they’re going to give the rest of the money to Willy Arts or save it for next year?

[grayarabpony]

The comments on the riding must have been made on Sat because I didn’t hear any remarks like that on Sunday.

I think they are asking too much of the 6 year olds. I also thought that the scores for the 6 year olds were too high.

[RP1]

DownYonder: The 5 and 6 yo horses can easily get out to shows, competing in Training thru 2nd or 3rd level tests for one or two years before they go to any 5 or 6 yo FEI YH classes. Horses in that area could have easily shown at Raleigh several times, or gone to a number of shows with an indoor arena, before they went down centerline for their 5 or 6 yo FEI YH class. They should not be showing in the FEI YH classes exclusively with only one competition under their belts before going to the qualifiers - that’s just insane. Of course I know that the regular classes don’t count towards the FEI YH scores, but they should have had plenty of experience at other show grounds. The 4 yo is probably quite different, with the lack of experience and time to get to other shows.

YankeeLawyer: I actually think that these classes ARE geared towards identifying the horses that would be internationally competitive. Yes, correct training is a component, but the initials FEI are tacked on to the title of the class, hence the international association and goal. Am I wrong? Now, the Developing YH classes are a possible outlet for everyone - or perhaps I have them reversed. Marydell could expound on the Developing Horse classes and maybe that is more enticing to the people who are disillusioned with the FEI YH classes.

As I said before, even horses at GP have off moments where they spook or do something out of character in the show ring, and their scores should reflect that. If you have concerns and harsh comments, take it to the USEF. If you don’t think FEI YH classes should be in indoor arenas or if you don’t want learner judges sitting behind the judges or if you want complete silence while the horse enters the indoor, maybe you need to start some kind of petition or make a motion to the USEF that these classes are held with specific parameters in place. Perhaps we will see a drop in the number of entries next year because riders are concerned about the judges comments - we’ll see.

I guess I don’t know what the main problem is - the judges and their comments, the venue where these classes are held, not being amateur friendly, the atmosphere in the arena, all of the above? But if you want anything changed, then you need to the USEF to try to implement those changes. Like I said - I’ve seen the judging change quite a bit since these classes have started. In the first year or two, the airs above the ground were actually being rewarded, while the correct and obedient horses were not. Perhaps it has done a complete 180, which would be just as bad. So, I reiterate - take your complaints to USEF if you want these things changed.

[Dirigo]

I didn’t see the class on Friday, but I sat through the whole thing on Sunday, and all horses looked really tired. (except the pik horse which in return unfortunately showed tension)

I think the comments of Fore, Zang and Gribbons where pretty much right on the money, and they where very positive and upbeat!!!
I think it’s a big long show, and the first thing in a 5yo horse that goes, is stamina!

That said…. in Germany which is what these riders are aiming to qualify for, the venue is much, MUCH scarier, than Raleigh!!! So these horses have to step up to the plate now, before getting overwhelmed there.

I think we have to be realistic, in picking horses for Verden…. I mean it’s the WORLD young horse championships. We don’t need to send horses there every year, who can barely qualify with an 8.0, just to get creamed in Europe.

I liked a lot of horses that I saw in Raleigh, especially Joe’s Rotspon mare. Chris has done a phenomenal job in training Cabana Boy, and Theresa Boutta has done an absolutely bang up job training Froehlich this past year, and I see all those horses potential super Grand Prix horses in the making…
It’s too bad they didn’t make it, but I believe they will all do really well in Kentucky!

[Tiki]

One of the big problems I see here is the inconsistency of scoring among the judges.

Doesn’t matter if the judges have ridden a young horse or not - they are judging the performance they see in front of them, not what they think the horse can/should do.
The very first training course for judging the Young Horse Test was put on in Florida in March (I think) at Mike Poulin’s. Very few of our judges have ever been trained in how to judge these classes. Any ‘O’ judge is exempt from training. None of the others have had training. This is a shame!!! The standards of judging are quite different from any USEF or FEI test. There are only 5 scores given. It is wrong to double penalize horses for submission AND gaits for the same ‘mistake’. There are some good judges and some horrible judges. A couple of good ones are Hilda Gurney, Ann Gribbons, Linda Zang, Gary Rockwell, Bill Sonyntjes (sp?), General Jack Burton, J. Ashton Moore, Lilo Fore, and a few others I can’t think of now. LM is not on my list.

[DownYonder]

RP - Of course 5 and 6 y/o’s should have been out showing at other venues earlier in the year – that goes without saying! But were they showing in scary indoor arenas with bleachers, a group of “mountain lion” learner judges hovering above the judges (what an image!), a loud speaker hissing and crackling, vent fans turning on and off, lots of spectators, etc.?

And yes, upper level horses also sometimes spook or are tense. However – the Y/H tests only have FIVE scores, so there is no margin for error. If a horse spooks during the trot work and consequently gets dinged by the judge for Submissiveness, that is 20% of the final score. If the judge also dings the horse on the Trot score because he spooked, that affects another 20% of the final score. That is hardly fair to talented young horses that don’t have a lot of show mileage. The horses should not be penalized in the marks for GAITS for making a common young horse mistake. Now, if the horse is SO tense and explosive that it never relaxes at all, never comes through or shows any swing at any gaits, then of course that should be reflected in the marks. I wasn’t at Raleigh, so I can’t say what happened, but from the comments here from people that WERE there, it sounds as though the judging for Friday’s test was quite a bit different from the judging for the Sat/Sun tests.

I also think it is it interesting that we have one group that categorically states that Verden is a much tougher venue for young horses, and another group that just as emphatically states that Raleigh is a tougher venue. I find the opposing viewpoints to be rather fascinating.

And RP – I agree that those with concerns should address them directly to USEF and/or the show organizer. I said as much in an earlier post. I certainly plan to mention my concerns to Scott Hassler.

Tiki - I guess my post crossed in cyberspace with yours. Very good points!

[Capriole]

@DownYonder;3258608

However – the Y/H tests only have FIVE scores, so there is no margin for error. If a horse spooks during the trot work and consequently gets dinged by the judge for Submissiveness, that is 20% of the final score. If the judge also dings the horse on the Trot score because he spooked, that affects another 20% of the final score.

I thought one of the ideas behind these tests was that they DON’T punish little spooks like that, or minor inaccurarcy in the test riding, etc. The focus is the quality of the gaits and the basic training.

There were posts here very similiar to this made after Raleigh last year (re judges’ comments). JJ Tate qualified at Raleigh last year and then went to Verden, where she described her horse as “starstruck” by the venue.

Now, the Developing YH classes are a possible outlet for everyone - or perhaps I have them reversed. Marydell could expound on the Developing Horse classes and maybe that is more enticing to the people who are disillusioned with the FEI YH classes.

The Developing Horse program is a PSG-level class for 7-9 year olds.

So this process seems to say - Amateurs need not apply.

I think this has always been the case, and there is no pretense otherwise. These classes are for the super talented horses ridden extremely well – not just classes to be entered by horses of a certain age.

[Maria]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;3258608]
RP - Of course 5 and 6 y/o’s should have been out showing at other venues earlier in the year – that goes without saying! But were they showing in scary indoor arenas with bleachers, a group of “mountain lion” learner judges hovering above the judges (what an image!), a loud speaker hissing and crackling, vent fans turning on and off, lots of spectators, etc.?

I have to address this, the “mountain lions” were so far above the actual judges stand that if the horses even noticed them, they would have had to have had their noses stuck almost straight up in the air. These mountain lions were sitting very quietly taking notes and listening to their mentor. And loud speaker hissing and crackling, ummmmmm NO, when announcements were not being made there is classical music being played. Vent fans, I can’t speak to that. But would imagine that yes that happened, it was hot. Spectators, well yes we hope to have those. But no more or less than other shows. And I guess there are not supposed to be seats for those spectators either?

The truth of the matter is that there were some horses in these classes that should not have been there.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Capriole;3258628]
I thought one of the ideas behind these tests was that they DON’T punish little spooks like that, or minor inaccurarcy in the test riding, etc. The focus is the quality of the gaits and the basic training. [/QUOTE]

That was my understanding, also.

@Capriole;3258628

There were posts here very similiar to this made after Raleigh last year (re judges’ comments). JJ Tate qualified at Raleigh last year and then went to Verden, where she described her horse as “starstruck” by the venue.

Someone stated earlier that last year’s Y/H classes at Raleigh were held in the covered arena - not the indoor. That can make a big difference to a young horse. I haven’t been to Raleigh, but my understanding is that it has tiered spectator seating. Is that correct? That can be very, very intimidating to a horse seeing it for the first time. And, as a I mentioned earlier, the acoustics are quite different in an enclosed venue. Sounds get amplified and they bounce around, which can cause confusion to a horse - esp. a youngster without a lot of show mileage.