Raleigh results - FEI Y/H scores

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Maria;3258662]
I have to address this, the “mountain lions” were so far above the actual judges stand that if the horses even noticed them, they would have had to have had their noses stuck almost straight up in the air. These mountain lions were sitting very quietly taking notes and listening to their mentor. And loud speaker hissing and crackling, ummmmmm NO, when announcements were not being made there is classical music being played. Vent fans, I can’t speak to that. But would imagine that yes that happened, it was hot. Spectators, well yes we hope to have those. But no more or less than other shows. And I guess there are not supposed to be seats for those spectators either?

The truth of the matter is that there were some horses in these classes that should not have been there.[/QUOTE]

I have no doubt that there were some horses there that probably should not have been. But I find it very interesting that we have two completely opposing viewpoints from people who WERE THERE. Some think the venue was intimidating, while others think everything about the venue was hunkey-dorey and the horses had no excuse for being nervous or tense. I guess it comes down to how much empathy one has for those trying to show young horses in this very challenging program. I am certainly rethinking my desire to show my young guy in the Y/H classes. He has a pretty good brain for a 5 y/o, but I imagine that he would have been pretty anxious about the Raleigh venue, too, being as he has never seen a big indoor with spectator seating all around.

[Marydell]

I was at Raleigh all last year and was there this past Saturday.

I think there were some horses this year that simply are not ready for the YH or were not prepared well enough for this venue.
That said: Both the indoor and the covered at Raleigh are tough, but Verden is as well in a different way. Acoustics aside, ( as there was little to no speakers during the rides last year and this Sat), the seating at Raleigh is the “bear”. It starts higher than the horse’s heads and they hear the spectators walking behind the grandstands but can’t see them. Chris-- it is very similar to the covered at GIHP when horses see movement behind the seats but can’t identify what it is. The indoor arenas at Lexington,VA and Murfreesboro, TN are much better- seating starts lower and the horses can see the spectators at eye level. Not so much spooking at these venues.
The covered at Raleigh is doubly “sight restricted” as there are bushes alongside that spectators and horses on the way to the indoor go by and can be heard but not seen. The judges forum sits at the diagonal corners, both last year and this, on metal granstand seating- very noisy. On the other side is an entrance and maintanence road close by. At “A” a horse can see the warmup- 50 feet away. I beleive- but am not sure- that this is why the indoor was used this year for the YH.

This venue is a very good one, with some minor flaws.

Management at Raleigh does a super job, all things considered.

As for the Developing Horse, this is a PSG competition very similar to the Burkopal (sp)Cup in Germany. It bears no resemblance to the FEI YH classes. Last year, to qualify, you rode a PSG at selected shows. This year, there is a “modified” and somewhat easier, PSG that is being used for qualifying. No audible comments are given- it is judged as a normal PSG is. You pick up your score sheet at the office -No consideration is given to the fact that the horses are young, 7 to 9 yrs old. The class must be judged by two “S” or better judges sitting at C and B or E seperately. This program simply identifies those combinations with the desire to compete at a national and international level.

I only have issues with how the judges are awarding/or penalizing the YH both in the gait score and submission scores. I also feel there is no need to be cruel but rather constructive in critiquing the rides. There are a lot of good YH judges out there. It is a shame that some just don’t “get it”.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
www.sporthorsestallionexpo.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[Capriole]

@DownYonder;3258672

Someone stated earlier that last year’s Y/H classes at Raleigh were held in the covered arena - not the indoor. That can make a big difference to a young horse.

At least some of the YH classes last year were in the indoor (the ones I watched). I can’t say if all of them were or not.

[Tiki]

I still think it’s hard to “get it” when there has been no attempt to train the judges. The ‘O’ judges are exempt, but Linda Zang had training, in Europe I believe, before she got her ‘O’ and I think it was Gary Rockwell who attended the judges clinic at Poulin’s voluntarily. I don’t know how many judges went through that program. They ALL need to. No horse should be double penalized (unless the gaits are awful on their own) or dinged for minor spooks - if they recover quickly. I’ve seen both happen too many times. Even without training, it seems some have never even looked at the directives from the way they score and the comments they make.

[ise]

I don’t really believe the USEF will listen to any comments - I realize that’s a sweeping generalization but it’s TRUE. And $10,000 is peanuts compared to not only the cost of getting a horse back and forth and staying there - these people also have lost income when they go.

Would it be great to see some of our horses go and compete well or even be in the top placings - absolutely but we don’t have the support here to make it happen. Look how few people even understand the process or the tests. The horses have to travel so far to the qualifiers or winter in FL (mucho bucks). Compare that to the process in Europe - travel is minimal AND - …BIG AND…they have plenty of judges who are involved with young horses who know how to score these tests.

Also - if someone has seen tracking on the Young Horse champions and future competition success - I’d love to see it.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3259042]

Also - if someone has seen tracking on the Young Horse champions and future competition success - I’d love to see it.[/QUOTE]

Part of my point was that I do not think the YH classes should only be about picking which horse will be the most likely to do well at Verden. I think that is one component of it, but surely this entire program must be intended to accomplish more than that.

[mickeydoodle]

I have scribed for the judge who made the difficult comments, it made me want to slit my wrists and give up all riding.

[Dirigo]

last year was set up like this…
the qualification on friday, and the preliminary testing was in the covered arena, and the final on sunday was in the indor arena.
I think it was the same there this year.(don’t know about saturday)

I rode in the 5yo’s last year, and have to say, that I find the arena pretty “user friendly”.
they let you ride there at all times on Thursday, and most horses are ok there.
Verden is more difficult, because of the MASSES of crowd, the cheering, and the noise factor.
I suppose horses that have a problem with “things above them” would like Raleigh less… but horses who are noise sensitive, can be assured to be “star struck” in Verden.

[slc2]

yep i was thinking the crowd factor at verden was alot.

[DownYonder]

Maryanna (Marydell) - thanks for the description of the Raleigh venue. I can certainly understand why it is a bit frightening for a young horse. And the more I hear, the more glad I become that I kept my young guy home instead of sending him to that pressure cooker environment. As much fun as it would be to try the Y/H tests, it is far more important that his first shows be a positive experience for him.

Yankee Lawyer - I agree, the program should be about much more than picking horses to go to Verden. The theory behind the program is to identify talented young FEI prospects, but the real impetus behind it is to give our upper level trainers a high visibility program involving young horses so they will want to ride youngsters and will begin to search out talented young horses. There are a lot of horses that can do okay in this program, even if they don’t quite have what it takes to be successful in Verden.

HSheffield - I hadn’t heard that USEF was actually going to cough up some money this year to help with travel expenses to Verden. I know that last year, they put all funds toward the Pan-Am Games and had nothing budgeted for the WC - I assumed things would be the same in this Olympic year. That is GREAT that they are helping with travel expenses! I know that The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society (GOV) also provides some funds for its horses that qualify for either the WC, or the NC. I wonder if other registries also provide any financial assistance.

Mickeydoodle - you just confirmed what others have been suggesting. It makes me wonder why this person was chosen to judge a Y/H class at an important qualifying show like Raleigh.

Tiki - I am very disheartened to learn that the Y/H judges don’t have to go through any kind of training program to learn how to judge these classes. Many judges are very, very loathe to give 8’s or 9’s in regular dressage tests, and I imagine that kind of philosophy would very easily carry over into their Y/H judging. Unfortunately, many of the top horses in this program are easily capable of at least 8’s - assuming they don’t get dinged for minor mistakes, or double-dinged for the same mistake. Training of judges needs to be better - I would like to see a MANDATORY training requirement for those that are chosen to judge the important qualifiers and national championships.

[rothmpp]

I’ve scribed for several classes of the YH tests, including Devon (if I remember correctly, actually for MacDonald in 2006), and I can say, those that I have scribed for have understood the purpose of the test, and have scored accordingly. In fact the judges, when determining scores, often discuss whether this is a horse that they would want to sent to Verden, in the realm of talent, not in the realm of whose horse it is.

I also have scribed for MacDonald on more than one occasion. Yes, she’s tough. ‘I’ judges from Canada are notoriously tough. I’ve never seen her rude, though I was not at Raleigh. We are taking one person’s interpretation of what she said and running her out of town on a rail.

You’ve gotta ask yourselves, is the indignation about the scores the fact that the US is only going to send one horse to Verden? I would rather that we only send one horse if the others would just “go to go”. It’s not like in the past the four horses that the US sent were winning all the classes consistantly every year. Nothing perpetuates the notion that the US breeding and training falls behind Europe like sending horses that are in the middle or bottom at Verden - a breeder’s federation championship.

The changes to the program this year have made it harder to qualify, as others have said. I don’t know if they were trying to eliminate judge shopping by making specific qualifying shows, but that severely limits the options for a lot of horses and riders, and probably made some riders/owners decide to not participate in the program this year. With the limited opportunities for qualifying, it is much harder this year for people in the northern climates that do not go to Florida for the winter. Having a 5YO ready for a qualifier by June 1st can be asking a lot. It will be interesting to see what happens with the score averages for Kentucky. I would be tempted to wait until June or July, get better scores, and not mess around with trying to qualify for Verden, seeing how cost prohibitive it is. I do wish that more shows had stepped up to the plate for July and August and applied to be qualifiers.

[JennNC]

I was disappointed that Cabana Boy didn’t get the score he needed because I am a big fan of his. However, he had two late flying lead changes and the judge said his walk became lateral during the walk pirouettes (I think). I didn’t see the lateral walk, but I saw the late changes and my heart sank.

As for the younger, less experienced horses, the judges clearly explained to the audience at one point that they understand that these young horses are in a difficult environment and they allow them to have a few moments of youthfulness, etc. However, if the tension affected the way the horse was actually moving, it was reflected in the score. This was sad, but I’m sure even the riders had to know that their tense horses weren’t performing as well as they normally would.

As for the overhead fans…it was HOT and people were requesting that something be done about it. Blame me…I asked the manager if we could do something to move some air in there!

As for the judges being too tough, I stood in the arena with several of them each day as we waited for the awards ceremonies, and I heard their comments about the various horses and riders. Some of them ARE rather tough minded if they feel like the riders aren’t up to par, but all-in-all I have to say that I got the impression that the judges WANT to see the horses do well.

Lastly, I’m pretty sure that the classes were run in the indoor last year in much the same manner as this year.

Jennifer Mitchell
President, NCDCTA

[chaos_theory]

This thread is really making me laugh my ass off!

It is amazing that in this indoor at Raleigh in a given year their are literally thousands of horses ranging from weanling right on up who manage to show in this environment and not have a complete meltdown.

My horses first show at Raleigh was also his first time in an indoor. He was 6 doing the First Year Greens at 3’6". It was the end of June, the vent fans were on, there were tons of people in the stands (was the big NCHJA show), kids running around, people dropping metal chairs (yes, did happen in the middle of one of his rounds) all the while the announcer was telling who sponsered the class on the loudspeaker, calling the next 3 horses in line and announcing my horses number. He did 3 wonderful rounds never missing a beat even through all the noise and distractions.

So how do tons of other horses of the same age or younger deal with the aptmosphere at Raleigh but it is unacceptable for your 5 and 6 year olds?

**I was there on Saturday and did notice that the indoor was very quiet. There was hardly anyone there and they were playing classical music softly.

[EqTrainer]

Having taken many young horses into that indoor, I will say that some of them really find it scary. There is a wall that goes straight up, then a tarped seating area (can be made even more fun if a small child is kicking it or dashing about!) and then bleacher seats. The vendors are behind that area. If your horse happens to be one that is claustrophobic or worries it can be quite hair-raising!

[Tiki]

I have no problem with the venue. Horses need to get used to things. Oftentimes DQ’s seem to think they should be riding in a library environment. Get over it.

What I do have a problem with is some of the inconsistent judging. Sure, if the atmosphere affects a horse to the point where it is not showing its gaits, ding it on gaits and submission. The problem comes when the gaits are absolutely beautiful, but something goes off somewhere - a whip cracking, a vendor’s popcorn machine turning on, the fans coming on, a kid kicking a tarp in the stands - and the horse has a “huh!” moment but quickly recovers. I’ve seen a small handful of judges ding the gaits as well as the submission when that happens and that’s not what the directives say. If there is consistant unsteadiness - even in a quiet environment - and the judge dings the gaits, well, that’s as it should be. But a momentary lapse?

I also agree that there are horses at the qualifiers that probably made it there by the skin of their teeth. Should they not be allowed to compete? Why not? They could have a complete about face and suddenly ‘get it’ the week before the qualifier and turn into a star.

These tests are NOT for 4, 5 and 6 year old horses just because they are 4, 5 or 6. These tests are to showcase young horses that have the potential to do upper level work very well, and to showcase young horses (hopefully) bred in the USA to get some of OUR horses out in the public eye and make them attractive to trainers and buyers.

The progression with these tests vs the USEF levels is: Materiale Classes, 4yo Young Horse, 5yo Young Horse, 6yo Young Horse, Developing Horse Classes and FEI. The better horses in these classes use the USEF classes for experience and exposure on their way to the top.

[DownYonder]

Chaos Theory - There is quite a difference between a horse doing courses in the hunter ring and a horse going around a dressage ring. The jumps in a hunter ring give a horse something to focus on, and they also tend to encourage a horse to be forward, which is exactly why I started my young mare in hunters before switching her to dressage. A young horse in a dressage ring has more opportunity to look around – and if they are already tense, they are going to try to find something to spook at.

Also, I believe that most of the concern is over the Friday class. I heard from several people that some horses didn’t arrive for the show until Thursday and they may not have had time to acclimate to the show environment before being asked to go in the indoor on Friday AM. Also, Friday was the day there was a group of learner judges in the stands above the class judges. Someone said the learner judges were pretty high up, but I imagine they would have nonetheless been a distraction for most green horses. Friday was also the day that had the judge making what some feel are “inappropriate” comments about the horses and riders.

I am really glad I started this thread and I want to thank everyone for their comments. I have learned a lot more about the Y/H program in general, and the Raleigh venue in particular. I was a bit on the fence about the Y/H program when it began because I felt that it would encourage too many people to rush young horses too much, but the program is apparently here to stay and I now believe that it is a good program for identifying talented youngsters.

I do think, though, there is way too much emphasis on selecting horses to go to Verden. That should be only one aspect of this program, but it appears that many show organizers didn’t understand that even though the selection trials for Verden would be finished by early June, they could still hold qualifying classes for the national championships at their shows throughout the summer. A lot of show organizers didn’t bother to apply to be qualifiers for the NC, so – as others have said – if you weren’t able to get your Y/H out early in the year to Florida or the SoCal shows, you were pretty much SOL regarding Nationals. I would also like to see some sort of mandatory training requirements for the judges – esp. at the shows designated as official qualifiers for either NC or WC. I hope that this program can be tweaked for next year to make the qualifying process more realistic.

[chaos_theory]

[QUOTE=EqTrainer;3260575]
Having taken many young horses into that indoor, I will say that some of them really find it scary. There is a wall that goes straight up, then a tarped seating area (can be made even more fun if a small child is kicking it or dashing about!) and then bleacher seats. The vendors are behind that area. If your horse happens to be one that is claustrophobic or worries it can be quite hair-raising![/QUOTE]

They did thankfully change the tarps. They are now painted pieces of wood…they still make an “interesting” sound if a kid kicks it but doesn’t scare the pee out of them like the tarps used to.

I do agree that it is a hard venue but I also don’t think that things should be perfect for young horses all the time…otherwise how do they learn? If the competitors knew that the big show was going to be at Raleigh then they should have done anything possible to make sure that their young horses were prepared for a stressful indoor environment. It sucks yes, but sometimes that is horse showing.

[grayarabpony]

There is a lot of whining going on about the venue. Are you sure you were there Chaos Theory, most of what they were playing was Musak Madonna – “Like a Virgin”, “Material Girl”, “Poppa Don’t Preach” :dead: What Einstein picked THAT music? In fact, why were they playing music at all, except during the musical freestyles.

I think the whole Young Horse program is kind of a dumb idea, pressuring some breeders to try to push young horses into doing things they’re not ready for.

[Maria]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3260769]
There is a lot of whining going on about the venue. Are you sure you were there Chaos Theory, most of what they were playing was Musak Madonna – “Like a Virgin”, “Material Girl”, “Poppa Don’t Preach” :dead: What Einstein picked THAT music? In fact, why were they playing music at all, except during the musical freestyles.

.[/QUOTE]

SNORT

Well yes I do think Areosmith would have been much better.

[ise]

I also believe we need to take a good hard look at the training programs for the Young Horse competitions. Why don’t we bring more people over from Europe who have a proven track record or training/prepping young horses for these competitions? Trainers with a list of horses they have actually trained and sent to the Young Horse Championships and have them provide information on their methodology.

It would be even better if it could be run for a week - (or even more) similar to a Dressage camp. Where the rider/horse can have the benefit of intense training and critique and solid recommendations from people who specialize in this work in Europe. It would probably be a real boot camp but I’m sure those who can “tough up” to it will end up benefiting and so will the horses.

The current system just doesn’t seem to be working.