Raleigh results - FEI Y/H scores

[EqTrainer]

@chaos theory;3260661

I do agree that it is a hard venue but I also don’t think that things should be perfect for young horses all the time…otherwise how do they learn? If the competitors knew that the big show was going to be at Raleigh then they should have done anything possible to make sure that their young horses were prepared for a stressful indoor environment. It sucks yes, but sometimes that is horse showing.

Oh, I agree. I am all about hauling my young horses around and just letting them be, in all sorts of places. That includes the indoor in Raleigh as much as possible.

I was commenting that it is a tough indoor. Compared to Williamston, for example, which is so horse friendly. There is something particularly unnerving about the Raleigh indoor; I have seen seasoned campaigners refuse to go in that arena. And yet the 4H kids horses do just fine :lol::lol::lol: There may be a lesson in that fact :lol:

[TMPF]

I personally love the venue at Raleigh with the exception of the red clay in the stabling. This is a well run show and I will return even though my horse will age out of the YH classes next year. I did not hear the comments from the fridays classes but both Saturday and Sunday Linda took over the Mic and tended to get a little too long in her comments.

I was thrilled with my horse’s performace and happy with the results. I know that there was lots of talk about the low scoring, but I didn’t hear anything bad about the venue.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3260812]
I also believe we need to take a good hard look at the training programs for the Young Horse competitions. Why don’t we bring more people over from Europe who have a proven track record or training/prepping young horses for these competitions? Trainers with a list of horses they have actually trained and sent to the Young Horse Championships and have them provide information on their methodology.

It would be even better if it could be run for a week - (or even more) similar to a Dressage camp. Where the rider/horse can have the benefit of intense training and critique and solid recommendations from people who specialize in this work in Europe. It would probably be a real boot camp but I’m sure those who can “tough up” to it will end up benefiting and so will the horses.

The current system just doesn’t seem to be working.[/QUOTE]

Oldenburg (GOV) has been sponsoring Y/H training clinics for years now (actually started them before the USEF program). They usually bring over Johannes Westerdarp and/or Katrin Burger - both of whom have very good track records with young horses and have won at the Bundeschampionat. Most of the clinics so far have been in either California or North Carolina, but this year’s clinic is in Alberta with Sarah Schröer, who studied for her Bereiter degree under Susanne Miesner (head of the FN’s young horse program).

[Schiffon]

[QUOTE=Tiki;3258492]
One of the big problems I see here is the inconsistency of scoring among the judges. The very first training course for judging the Young Horse Test was put on in Florida in March (I think) at Mike Poulin’s. Very few of our judges have ever been trained in how to judge these classes. Any ‘O’ judge is exempt from training. None of the others have had training. This is a shame!!! The standards of judging are quite different from any USEF or FEI test. …QUOTE]

This is so true, or at least it was in the recent past. I’m an L grad and went to a ‘USDF University’ program at Raleigh 2 years ago supposedly on judging young horse tests. The faculty/judge kept going on about whether a certain horse met the basic various qualities of the training scale (which is fine, but not unique to YH tests) and pointing out inaccuracies in the test riding (which, based on the YH tests I’ve seen in Europe, is not that important unless it is due to resistances). I tried to get out of her a scoring methodology, for example, how does one decide if a trot of 8.0 or an 8.2 or an 8.5, since decimal points are not what we use in regular tests, but this person (S judge) could not verbalize one at all. That is a problem. Does one keep a running tally of 10 trot movements and average them? Any one know?If a US judge has no unique method for YH test and is going on a baseline of never giving 9’s and rarely 8’s in a regular dressage test and continues to give mostly 7’s even when a trot is good or very good, then I don’t think the judging is the same as in Europe. That said, I have never seen a young horse here that is on par with the top 5 at the WCYH with the simultaneous expression, power, and relaxation.

Based on what I’ve seen in Germany, I don’t think many people ride young horses (ie 3 and 4 year olds) forward enough here and maybe that translates to difficulty at producing brilliance at 5 and 6 years of age without getting tension.

[ElizaS]

I rode in the 4 year old test on Sunday. It was held in the covered arena, and Lilo Fore did the commentary. I think she was right on with her comments and scores. It was my guy’s first show ever, so he was a little spooky and wiggly, but I find Raleigh to be a pretty nice place in general. Not nearly as spooky as some other venues, and always so well run.

[Dorienna]

[QUOTE=Tiki;3260622]
I have no problem with the venue. Horses need to get used to things. Oftentimes DQ’s seem to think they should be riding in a library environment. Get over it.

These tests are NOT for 4, 5 and 6 year old horses just because they are 4, 5 or 6. QUOTE]

I agree 100% with this. Too many times I have seen people attempt these classes because their horse is that age and can ‘‘do’’ the test. And then getting creamed in the commentary… I don’t think I’ll ever be brave enough to deal with that!:eek:

[YankeeLawyer]

I don’t have a problem with the notion of spooky venues. If the footing were dangerous, for example, that would be a different story. I do have a major problem with people being discourteous and unprofessional, which, imo, some of the comments were (assuming, of course, the description of those who attended was accurate).

I also have trouble believing that of all of the horses that competed this year throughout the USA, they could not identify TWO that were worthy of competing in Verden. I have no idea how we are ever going to improve and be competitive at that competition if we don’t allow our riders and young horses an opportunity to participate over there. And without meaningful, constructive criticism from the judges, I question how much of a learning experience the qualifying competitions provide.

In any event, it seems to me that someone needs to clarify the goals of the program and the judging criteria, and make sure that the judges are on the same page.

[siegi_b]

In my opinion there is a big difference in the way these FEI Young Horse classes are scored here vs. Germany. I think we get too wrapped up over submissiveness to a point where we’re looking for overly quiet youngsters and that will then affect their performance in the gaits. The occasional spook should not affect the final score to such an extent that the very talented horse can’t make the qualifying marks.

[canticle]

Why should a quiet, well-behaved youngster not have correct gaits?

[YankeeLawyer]

I wouldn’t exactly describe the top finishers at Verden as quiet. Generally, the “overly quiet” ones lack the kind of remarkable brilliance in their gaits that is rewarded at that competition.

That said, at GP level, I do think there is room for the really precise, consistent ones that are good, but not necessarily spectacular (in the true sense of the word) movers. I am referring to horses like Brentina. IMO, she is a good mover, but she excels not because of flash but because of her precision and consistency.

[hsheffield]

siegi:

agree that we get too wrapped up in submissiveness here compared to Germany. Perhas it’s left over from the hunter stuff? just a guess. I think Axel Steiner seems expecially attached to this based on how I’ve seen him judge.

though if the horses are tense it’s hard for them to come through and show off their natural gaits which IS the point so like most things its a balance.

[ise]

JMHO - but I feel there is a big difference between a horse that is tense from bad riding and a horse that occasionally gets “show” tense from the venue or outside stimulus. A tremendous number of horses who went on to be even Olympic competitors had issues of spooky or tense behavior when they were young but with time, correct riding and more exposure to showing - it went away. With the Young Horse championships if the horse is tense from outside stimulus and the rider just keeps going and pushes through it - I don’t feel there should be ANY mark down. It happens - it’s normal. If the horse is tense or incorrect in it’s body because of bad riding - that should be noted. If a horse is just NOT submissive to the aids and the riding is correct - big mark down.

But all of this takes a judge with a keen eye, EXPERIENCE with young horses (BTW - they are all different even at the same age) and TACT when it comes to communicating to the RIDER what the scores reflected.

[kkj]

A lot of the horses that make it to the big ring were too electric, hot and spooky to do well in these tests in the US when they were 4, 5 and 6 year olds. In Europe you do see them forgive this exuberance or show nerves more. Let’s remember the test of Sir Donnerhall as an example. He was not perfectly submissive that is for sure. Also when you do get to the big ring that extra edge is a good thing. I think in a few years few of the horses that are winning at Grand Prix will be the ones that won the FEI young horse tests. Not all good horses or horses that will shine brightly later enter or do well in those classes. And I do think a lot of people in the US enter those classes just because they have a horse that is the right age and not because the horse is actually ready for the test.

I am glad Willy and Valeska made the cut. I do love that horse and think she has what it takes to be a big player in the future. Anyone know if he is going? I think they should have somehow fudged it so Cabana Boy could go. Come on 8.1999. I think he could represented the US well and I do think we should be sending horses to this competition.

[dressagefriend]

We need to be sending Riders and Horses to Verden to show we are able to breed and train them. I think cheers and support should be given to the breeders, riders, owners who are willing to spend the money to send these horses. Most of the riders are pros who will lose money because they are leaving their business to compete one horse. The experience these riders will gain by going and just being there cannot be duplicated here in the U.S. It is sad that Cabana Boy had this ride at Raleigh. I have seen him this year and thought he looked very strong and ready for the task. Too bad our YH coach does not have any input on our Short List.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Schiffon;3261754]
If a US judge has no unique method for YH test and is going on a baseline of never giving 9’s and rarely 8’s in a regular dressage test and continues to give mostly 7’s even when a trot is good or very good, then I don’t think the judging is the same as in Europe.[/QUOTE]

From what I have been hearing, that is quite frequently a problem with some of the judges. It bothers me to learn there are officials out there judging OFFICIAL QUALIFIERS for the National Championships and/or World Championships, who have never been to a Y/H judging course, and who may have a philosphy of never giving 9’s in a regular dressage test, and rarely 8’s. If they have not been properly trained on how to judge a Y/H test, this philosophy is going to carry over into their judging of those tests. So a horse with a “9” or “10” walk, trot or canter - and yes, there are some out there - will get marked at “7” or “8” because the judge is afraid to break his/her own pattern.

@Schiffon;3261754

That said, I have never seen a young horse here that is on par with the top 5 at the WCYH with the simultaneous expression, power, and relaxation.

I would submit that Jason Canton’s Grandioso shows world class power, scope, expression, and elasticity in his gaits, and there may be others that I haven’t seen. What Grandioso doesn’t have that the top 5 at the WC have is a rider with TONS of experience riding the Y/H tests. Yes, we have some riders that have now ridden these tests every year since the program’s inception in the U.S., but the majority of riders showing in these classes are learning as they go. It’s going to take time to “grow” a good rider base that can be truly competitive on the world stage - and let’s face it, top equine candidates for this program don’t exactly grow on trees. Sometimes a rider gets some excellent experience with one horse for 1-2 years, but then the horse ages out of the program and the rider doesn’t have another one to take its place. Of course they can move the horse into the Developing Horse program, but that doesn’t help them reach a goal of getting to the Y/H WC in Verden. That is another aspect of the problem here, and I think, IIRC, that was one of the motives behind this program - how to identify both top young horses AND top young horse riders and get them matched up to the benefit of all.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=ElizaS;3262312]
I rode in the 4 year old test on Sunday. It was held in the covered arena, and Lilo Fore did the commentary. I think she was right on with her comments and scores. It was my guy’s first show ever, so he was a little spooky and wiggly, but I find Raleigh to be a pretty nice place in general. Not nearly as spooky as some other venues, and always so well run.[/QUOTE]

And you did quite well, too - winning the class of, what was it - 8 riders? And on a young stallion, too! Kudos to you!

I also want to take this opportunity to say something that someone mentioned to me privately. I have never been to Raleigh, but it is my understanding that Janine Malone always does a bang-up job running this show. As this person said, there is NO ONE who tries harder to put on a good show for the competitors than Janine. So - many kudos to Janine, too!

[hsheffield]

Thanks Janine

ditto on the kudos to Janine. she does an unimaginable amount of work getting this show together for little reward.

thank you Janine! Great job!

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3263418]
JMHO - but I feel there is a big difference between a horse that is tense from bad riding and a horse that occasionally gets “show” tense from the venue or outside stimulus. A tremendous number of horses who went on to be even Olympic competitors had issues of spooky or tense behavior when they were young but with time, correct riding and more exposure to showing - it went away. With the Young Horse championships if the horse is tense from outside stimulus and the rider just keeps going and pushes through it - I don’t feel there should be ANY mark down. It happens - it’s normal. If the horse is tense or incorrect in it’s body because of bad riding - that should be noted. If a horse is just NOT submissive to the aids and the riding is correct - big mark down.

But all of this takes a judge with a keen eye, EXPERIENCE with young horses (BTW - they are all different even at the same age) and TACT when it comes to communicating to the RIDER what the scores reflected.[/QUOTE]

Excellent points, Ilona. I do wonder how many of the judges have much RECENT experience riding youngsters. It is pretty unrealistic to expect a 5 y/o to act completely bombproof and letter perfect. Youngsters are going to make baby mistakes, they are going to be more curious about what is going on around them, they are going to not be able to deal with “distractions” with the same aplomb as a seasoned show veteran. Judges need to be able to take that into account.

[slc2]

At some smaller shows I see people enter the young horse tests who really have lost track of what the intention of the classes is.

The intention of the classes is to develop top level horses. The makers of the tests did not create them to help people market average horses that can’t move past second or third level. These tests are bridges to the FEI.

I wasn’t at Raleigh so I can’t say about there, but i DO see people entering these classes inappropriately at other shows (and these comments are general, not specific to Raleigh).

I suppose there are some judges who don’t judge these classes well, but fortunately, I think that MOST of the judges doing these classes know very well how to judge these classes and they DO ignore excitement and minor mistakes in the horses. They DO comment on fundamental issues and things that keep horses from moving up.

I feel that most of the YH judges are judging the balance, gaits, willingness and potential of the horses. While that can be affected by atmosphere at a show, and that it’s very possible that the layout of a place can get to some horses, I still feel most judges can see what the horses are or aren’t, even when there are minor mistakes or excitement.

I wish ALL our national tests were judged exactly how the YH tests are judged. I love seeing the exhuberant forwardness of the YH horses, ‘submissiveness’ means something very different in there and I think it’s right. We got several tapes of the YH championships in Europe and it was really stunning. I think that’s how horses should do the lower level tests!

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=slc2;3263957]

The intention of the classes is to develop top level horses. The makers of the tests did not create them to help people market average horses that can’t move past second or third level. These tests are bridges to the FEI.
.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear, I never suggested otherwise. However, I do think the judges are overly focused on identifying horses that, for example, could be top-6 at Verden, rather than developing top level horses more generally.