[RANT] Equestrian Guilt

[thecolorcoal]

first off: sorry to those i might offend with this. it is simply something i need to get off my chest, and maybe a few like-minded individuals will make me feel more supported…

since getting my first horse, and even before, i read up on a lot of the “right ways” to train, ride, etc. i come from a very traditional english hunter/jumper background, and for a long time only rode at show barns.

which did things the show barn way. every single barn pretty much had the same philosophy. not just about winning “blue ribbons” but also about not letting horses “push you around,” “boss you,” “dominate you,” and that any sort of physical reprimand was replicating “what a horse would do to another horse.” hitting, smacking, punching, etc etc etc. was all justified because if it were horse-to-horse, it wouldn’t be a hand, it would be a HOOF to the HEAD. and the hand was supposed to replicate that.

I watch horses out in the field, as i now board in a large pasture. they can be downright NASTY to each other. but they always give warning.

now, throughout my 16+ years of being a horsewoman, i did things one way. i am not very old, in my mid 20s, but i am currently good friends with a few people younger than me who are 100% animal rights enthusiasts.

recently, through reading and research because i am always on a quest to learn and consider new ideas, i have not heard any of the old mantra “i am doing x because if it were a horse, he’d be doing y” that i lived by for almost my entire horsey career. i know many trainers who still train in the classic style i grew up learning, and while i do not agree with it anymore, i remember one saying an old trainer of mine used to tell us kids (we were 16):

“make the punishment more terrifying than the obstacle ever could be.”

meaning, if the horse won’t jump, make jumping the better option than getting beat by the crop.

NOW. i never ever ever see this mentality anymore. and as a young girl who was very influenced by lots of PETA i was horrified, but you NEVER questioned your trainer. never. they were like god. you never talked back - you did exactly as they say.

maybe my experience is unique. i don’t know. i haven’t been able to find forum posts or experiences that replicate it. i was never a shower - i cared more about riding and having a relationship with my horse than winning blue or any other color, and so i was never asked to come to the shows because i didn’t have a competitive drive. and i still don’t.

my horse and i are unimaginably close. i research every bit of tack before i use it on her, the good and the bad. she goes in a loose ring snaffle, and reflecting back on my last story those kinds of bits were UNHEARD of. every horse HAD to go in a double twisted wire, sliding gag, or corkscrew because if they went in a snaffle they were seen as not being competitive enough, and a harsher bit almost always meant a better horse.

now that i ride at a pretty DIY barn, and considering my riding history, sometimes what i consider “normal” actually terrifies people, and they think i am an evil horse abuser because i would consider that kind of tack, or training method, or what have you. but growing up all of it was consider “normal” and “standard.” it wasn’t even that long ago - mid 2000s.

the friends i have now are extremely critical of crops, spurs, bits, martingales, nosebands, and despite one of them being a clinton anderson fan, physical reprimands/scare tactics for unacceptable behavior.

and i don’t understand how acting like the dominant horse in the relationship, using artificial aids, could be so horrible frowned upon? you are dealing with a 1000 pound animal. shouldn’t the human’s welfare trump the horse’s?

that’s my rant. hope i didn’t sound crazy and backwards… i am just trying to understand how so many people i admired in my youth would now be considered the worst abusers in equestrian history…

i use no methods i deem violent on my horse. she is not a horse you can physically reprimand and is my first realization that you can’t just crop any old horse over a fence. you have to help them over it, too.

i LOVE my horse more than any other human or animal. i go out every night to feed her, pet her, brush her, hose her legs, check to make sure she is healthy, and i read her a bed time story before i leave. she is the best thing that could ever happen to me. and i always get called “cruel” whenever i have to be stern with her under saddle, because she is a baby. i don’t consider tapping a horse behind the leg after you’ve already asked them with a squeeze “cruel.” so that is why i am so frustrated. i would NEVER do anything intentionally cruel, but “cruelty” seems to be in the gray area nowadays. even riding, for some, is considered cruel.

i just don’t want to be made to feel like i am a horse abuser, or that i am hurting my horse, just because of the training choices i make. at the base of it all is love. i don’t believe there is any love at the base of any abusive treatment, only hate and rage.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8787082]
first off: sorry to those i might offend with this. it is simply something i need to get off my chest, and maybe a few like-minded individuals will make me feel more supported…

since getting my first horse, and even before, i read up on a lot of the “right ways” to train, ride, etc. i come from a very traditional english hunter/jumper background, and for a long time only rode at show barns.

which did things the show barn way. every single barn pretty much had the same philosophy. not just about winning “blue ribbons” but also about not letting horses “push you around,” “boss you,” “dominate you,” and that any sort of physical reprimand was replicating “what a horse would do to another horse.” hitting, smacking, punching, etc etc etc. was all justified because if it were horse-to-horse, it wouldn’t be a hand, it would be a HOOF to the HEAD. and the hand was supposed to replicate that.

I watch horses out in the field, as i now board in a large pasture. they can be downright NASTY to each other. but they always give warning.

now, throughout my 16+ years of being a horsewoman, i did things one way. i am not very old, in my mid 20s, but i am currently good friends with a few people younger than me who are 100% animal rights enthusiasts.

recently, through reading and research because i am always on a quest to learn and consider new ideas, i have not heard any of the old mantra “i am doing x because if it were a horse, he’d be doing y” that i lived by for almost my entire horsey career. i know many trainers who still train in the classic style i grew up learning, and while i do not agree with it anymore, i remember one saying an old trainer of mine used to tell us kids (we were 16):

“make the punishment more terrifying than the obstacle ever could be.”

meaning, if the horse won’t jump, make jumping the better option than getting beat by the crop.

NOW. i never ever ever see this mentality anymore. and as a young girl who was very influenced by lots of PETA i was horrified, but you NEVER questioned your trainer. never. they were like god. you never talked back - you did exactly as they say.

maybe my experience is unique. i don’t know. i haven’t been able to find forum posts or experiences that replicate it. i was never a shower - i cared more about riding and having a relationship with my horse than winning blue or any other color, and so i was never asked to come to the shows because i didn’t have a competitive drive. and i still don’t.

my horse and i are unimaginably close. i research every bit of tack before i use it on her, the good and the bad. she goes in a loose ring snaffle, and reflecting back on my last story those kinds of bits were UNHEARD of. every horse HAD to go in a double twisted wire, sliding gag, or corkscrew because if they went in a snaffle they were seen as not being competitive enough, and a harsher bit almost always meant a better horse.

now that i ride at a pretty DIY barn, and considering my riding history, sometimes what i consider “normal” actually terrifies people, and they think i am an evil horse abuser because i would consider that kind of tack, or training method, or what have you. but growing up all of it was consider “normal” and “standard.” it wasn’t even that long ago - mid 2000s.

the friends i have now are extremely critical of crops, spurs, bits, martingales, nosebands, and despite one of them being a clinton anderson fan, physical reprimands/scare tactics for unacceptable behavior.

and i don’t understand how acting like the dominant horse in the relationship, using artificial aids, could be so horrible frowned upon? you are dealing with a 1000 pound animal. shouldn’t the human’s welfare trump the horse’s?

that’s my rant. hope i didn’t sound crazy and backwards… i am just trying to understand how so many people i admired in my youth would now be considered the worst abusers in equestrian history…

i use no methods i deem violent on my horse. she is not a horse you can physically reprimand and is my first realization that you can’t just crop any old horse over a fence. you have to help them over it, too.

i LOVE my horse more than any other human or animal. i go out every night to feed her, pet her, brush her, hose her legs, check to make sure she is healthy, and i read her a bed time story before i leave. she is the best thing that could ever happen to me. and i always get called “cruel” whenever i have to be stern with her under saddle, because she is a baby. i don’t consider tapping a horse behind the leg after you’ve already asked them with a squeeze “cruel.” so that is why i am so frustrated. i would NEVER do anything intentionally cruel, but “cruelty” seems to be in the gray area nowadays. even riding, for some, is considered cruel.

i just don’t want to be made to feel like i am a horse abuser, or that i am hurting my horse, just because of the training choices i make. at the base of it all is love. i don’t believe there is any love at the base of any abusive treatment, only hate and rage.[/QUOTE]

Well, hmmmm…

[SuzieQNutter]

It doesn’t really matter ehat happened in the past. Make sure what you do from now on is not abusive.

Horses respond to reward and praise. They can understand that uh uh means no rather than hitting. Every horse is different. Some I never raise a hand to. I would if they did something nasty and they know that! As long as discipline is done fairly and with the correct timing it will have the desired effect. If unfair or incorrect timing you will actually teach the opposite.

That is my rambling for tonight.

Loose ring snaffles of course are kinder. But any bit is only as good or bad as the hands at the other end of the rein.

No noseband is better than a cranked tight one. Gadgets are best not used. Side reins are not classed as a gadget but you should be taught how to use then.

[Bluey]

Talking about bits, loose ring snaffles tend to be too much for the more sensitive horses, because they are a “noisy” bit, has too much movement, which gives more and more inconsistent signals then other snaffles do.

A more steady bit like D ring snaffles are better for those horses.

Other horses may prefer the pre-signal loose ring snaffles give, that extra split second from tightening the rein to feeling the active bit, or like to have something playing along in their head/mouth.

We really can’t say one is “better” or “milder” than the other, they just work in different ways.

That just to explain why there is so much more to everything we do and use, we have to consider it all in how we communicate with horses and if we are smart, we never quit learning, but always search for more knowledge with an open mind.

[cutter99]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8787082]
first off: sorry to those i might offend with this. it is simply something i need to get off my chest, and maybe a few like-minded individuals will make me feel more supported…

since getting my first horse, and even before, i read up on a lot of the “right ways” to train, ride, etc. i come from a very traditional english hunter/jumper background, and for a long time only rode at show barns.

which did things the show barn way. every single barn pretty much had the same philosophy. not just about winning “blue ribbons” but also about not letting horses “push you around,” “boss you,” “dominate you,” and that any sort of physical reprimand was replicating “what a horse would do to another horse.” hitting, smacking, punching, etc etc etc. was all justified because if it were horse-to-horse, it wouldn’t be a hand, it would be a HOOF to the HEAD. and the hand was supposed to replicate that.

I watch horses out in the field, as i now board in a large pasture. they can be downright NASTY to each other. but they always give warning.

now, throughout my 16+ years of being a horsewoman, i did things one way. i am not very old, in my mid 20s, but i am currently good friends with a few people younger than me who are 100% animal rights enthusiasts.

recently, through reading and research because i am always on a quest to learn and consider new ideas, i have not heard any of the old mantra “i am doing x because if it were a horse, he’d be doing y” that i lived by for almost my entire horsey career. i know many trainers who still train in the classic style i grew up learning, and while i do not agree with it anymore, i remember one saying an old trainer of mine used to tell us kids (we were 16):

“make the punishment more terrifying than the obstacle ever could be.”

meaning, if the horse won’t jump, make jumping the better option than getting beat by the crop.

NOW. i never ever ever see this mentality anymore. and as a young girl who was very influenced by lots of PETA i was horrified, but you NEVER questioned your trainer. never. they were like god. you never talked back - you did exactly as they say.

maybe my experience is unique. i don’t know. i haven’t been able to find forum posts or experiences that replicate it. i was never a shower - i cared more about riding and having a relationship with my horse than winning blue or any other color, and so i was never asked to come to the shows because i didn’t have a competitive drive. and i still don’t.

my horse and i are unimaginably close. i research every bit of tack before i use it on her, the good and the bad. she goes in a loose ring snaffle, and reflecting back on my last story those kinds of bits were UNHEARD of. every horse HAD to go in a double twisted wire, sliding gag, or corkscrew because if they went in a snaffle they were seen as not being competitive enough, and a harsher bit almost always meant a better horse.

now that i ride at a pretty DIY barn, and considering my riding history, sometimes what i consider “normal” actually terrifies people, and they think i am an evil horse abuser because i would consider that kind of tack, or training method, or what have you. but growing up all of it was consider “normal” and “standard.” it wasn’t even that long ago - mid 2000s.

the friends i have now are extremely critical of crops, spurs, bits, martingales, nosebands, and despite one of them being a clinton anderson fan, physical reprimands/scare tactics for unacceptable behavior.

and i don’t understand how acting like the dominant horse in the relationship, using artificial aids, could be so horrible frowned upon? you are dealing with a 1000 pound animal. shouldn’t the human’s welfare trump the horse’s?

that’s my rant. hope i didn’t sound crazy and backwards… i am just trying to understand how so many people i admired in my youth would now be considered the worst abusers in equestrian history…

i use no methods i deem violent on my horse. she is not a horse you can physically reprimand and is my first realization that you can’t just crop any old horse over a fence. you have to help them over it, too.

i LOVE my horse more than any other human or animal. i go out every night to feed her, pet her, brush her, hose her legs, check to make sure she is healthy, and i read her a bed time story before i leave. she is the best thing that could ever happen to me. and i always get called “cruel” whenever i have to be stern with her under saddle, because she is a baby. i don’t consider tapping a horse behind the leg after you’ve already asked them with a squeeze “cruel.” so that is why i am so frustrated. i would NEVER do anything intentionally cruel, but “cruelty” seems to be in the gray area nowadays. even riding, for some, is considered cruel.

i just don’t want to be made to feel like i am a horse abuser, or that i am hurting my horse, just because of the training choices i make. at the base of it all is love. i don’t believe there is any love at the base of any abusive treatment, only hate and rage.[/QUOTE]

Wow! So glad you seem to have it all together and know everything. Just a hint- stay open minded and don’t judge. You might actually learn something!

[soloudinhere]

Sorry, but all this bunk about “love” and “bonding” etc makes me gag.

And I really only hear it from a) really young people, like teenagers who spend too much time on instagram and b) older ladies who are definitely filling some other void in their life by pretending their horse is a human child.

You don’t have an incredible bond with your horse just because you obsessively research what the internet has to say about what noseband you should use. Sorry, but that’s just bull.

Pretty much everything these days is about somebody’s hurt feelings. Pick your cause, I’m sure there is one, that is a totally fake cause but makes somebody feel good to champion it. Repeat in every area of your life.

[TBROCKS]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8787082]
i know many trainers who still train in the classic style i grew up learning, and while i do not agree with it anymore, i remember one saying an old trainer of mine used to tell us kids (we were 16):“make the punishment more terrifying than the obstacle ever could be.”[/QUOTE]

TRUE classical training does not equate punishment. Quite the opposite. Have you studied classical training for yourself?

[Foxtail]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8787407]
Sorry, but all this bunk about “love” and “bonding” etc makes me gag.

And I really only hear it from a) really young people, like teenagers who spend too much time on instagram and b) older ladies who are definitely filling some other void in their life by pretending their horse is a human child.

You don’t have an incredible bond with your horse just because you obsessively research what the internet has to say about what noseband you should use. Sorry, but that’s just bull.

Pretty much everything these days is about somebody’s hurt feelings. Pick your cause, I’m sure there is one, that is a totally fake cause but makes somebody feel good to champion it. Repeat in every area of your life.[/QUOTE]

It seems, from my observation, that when equestrians make large changes to their personal philosophy they swing too far in the other direction to try and make up for what they had been doing. I myself was guilty of that at one point; after some time away from horses I found a new (and decidedly moderate) equilibrium. That said, what’s the point in wasting energy by saying things that will just put someone on the defensive, when you could say something that opens a dialogue?

[findeight]

Only what you learn after you think you know it all counts. Remember that, it’s a moving target no matter how many years you have been at it.

[ponysaurus]

[QUOTE=Foxtail;8787498]
It seems, from my observation, that when equestrians make large changes to their personal philosophy they swing too far in the other direction to try and make up for what they had been doing. I myself was guilty of that at one point; after some time away from horses I found a new (and decidedly moderate) equilibrium. That said, what’s the point in wasting energy by saying things that will just put someone on the defensive, when you could say something that opens a dialogue?[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure OP isn’t interested in “dialogue”, but rather a mass agreement that OP is “right”.

[Foxglove6]

I can’t even figure out what OP is saying!

Punishment is bad but so is being too nice. So… what?

[RxCate]

It sounds like A) OP is anthropomorphizing which is bad, and B) OP has landed in a ‘natural’ barn and is getting the stink eye from the carrot wavers.

OP needs to find a barn that suits her training goals, or ignore the carrots and continue on as her (hopefully she has one) current trainer is advising.

[Foxtail]

[QUOTE=ponysaurus;8787554]
Pretty sure OP isn’t interested in “dialogue”, but rather a mass agreement that OP is “right”.[/QUOTE]

That’s still no reason for hostility. If anything, that would only serve to cement OP’s beliefs.

[AprilKisses]

Sounds like you were immersed in possibly one extreme, and then ended up smack dab in the opposite extreme.

Not all show barns are alike, not all backyard barns are alike- same goes for the horse people/riders that you will find across the industry. Just because people have the same goals/interests with horses does not mean that they treat/care for their horses the same way.

Think for yourself and do what is best in your mind for yourself and your horse. Horses will tell you how they are/feel through their condition, body language, etc. As long as your horse is healthy, well cared for and seemingly comfortable with life (and you are also safe around your horse) all is probably good.

Everyone has their own experiences and opinions. Unless someone is trying to look out for the well-being of you and your horse, you have invited their input and they meet the standards that you consider important, I would disregard all the other input.

[D_BaldStockings]

You can’t be ‘made to feel you are abusive’ if you are confident in your treatment of your horse. Be your own person and stand by your beliefs and training.

The difference between aids and cues and correction and punishment and abuse should be clear in your mind and actions. That doesn’t mean they will always be clear to onlookers, especially onlookers who believe any use of artificial aids like crops and spurs and various bits designed to more clearly communicate with the horse are instead cruel, abusive and mean.

Loving your horse more does not reduce his pain or confusion at erratic, wrongly timed and inconsistent aids; for some this means they ask less and less of the horse, and think they are being kind.

They are ineffective and often not providing sufficient exercise or stimulation to their large domestic animal bred to interact with humans, and move over ground to their mutual enjoyment.

Horses are horses; appreciate them as they are. They are not a crutch or substitute for human relationships, and when you ‘love them more than humans’ this is not healthy.

[Halt_Near_X]

There are many, many, many barns that exist in a happy medium between “bit up every horse and make them fear punishment more than work” and “ride bitless and bareback while communing with your soulmate under the light of a full moon.”

Based on your post, I personally wouldn’t board/train at either the types of barns you describe.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8787914]
You can’t be ‘made to feel you are abusive’ if you are confident in your treatment of your horse. Be your own person and stand by your beliefs and training.

The difference between aids and cues and correction and punishment and abuse should be clear in your mind and actions. That doesn’t mean they will always be clear to onlookers, especially onlookers who believe any use of artificial aids like crops and spurs and various bits designed to more clearly communicate with the horse are instead cruel, abusive and mean.

Loving your horse more does not reduce his pain or confusion at erratic, wrongly timed and inconsistent aids; for some this means they ask less and less of the horse, and think they are being kind.

They are ineffective and often not providing sufficient exercise or stimulation to their large domestic animal bred to interact with humans, and move over ground to their mutual enjoyment.

Horses are horses; appreciate them as they are. They are not a crutch or substitute for human relationships, and when you ‘love them more than humans’ this is not healthy.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

And, OP, if you just ask yourself how your horse is progressing under your care and training, you’ll get the Truth about your methods. If your horse is improving and wants to do a job and be around you, you are doing things right. If not, then you have something to learn yourself. How do you pick a method (or really, a correct interpretation of the horse’s motivation when she is not doing as you ask)? Find someone who is getting what they want from their horses and ask them to show you with your horse how to do the same.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Foxglove6;8787586

I can’t even figure out what OP is saying!

Yeah. My initial response to the OP was, “umm…what?” :lol:

OP, you seem to have swung from one extreme to the other. Seek out a middle ground. Use some common sense.

You will find lots of good advice here, but you will have much better responses if you refrain from posting diatribes and stick to asking specific questions or asking about specific scenarios. For example, you mention using a crop behind the leg when the horse doesn’t respond to a squeeze. You might find it helpful to post a question asking people how they teach a young horse to be more responsive to cues.

[Scribbler]

Guilt is a destructive and ultimately pointless emotion. If you are doing something now that makes you feel guilty, stop doing the thing. And if you did something in the past that you thought was right then, but you now know is wrong, then pat yourself on the back for having learned enough to change your ways. Don’t keep reacting in the present to something that has already ended.

Of course, if it involved people, and you hurt them, yes, go back and make amends as best you can. But if they didn’t know, just keep quiet about it and don’t do it again – you’ll hurt them more by telling them now.

That said, as one of the other posters has said, you’ve bounced from one extreme (win at all costs show barn) to the other (PETA, extreme “natural” horsemanship, etc).

This says to me that you might be a person that tends to go all the way, that is to extremes, accompanied by self-disgust at your past self, and a lot of emotional investment in each stage as it comes along. Maybe this manifests itself in other areas of your life, like jobs choices, entertainment choices, friends, fashions, political ideas, etc?

There are good points to being able to totally immerse yourself in your current choices to this extent. It gives you the energy and commitment to totally do something, and reject distractions. I’ve known friends like that. But the flip side is that when they tire of the one extreme, they are disgusted with the whole enterprise, and with themselves, and then burn all their bridges as they make a big life change and go on to the next new thing. Sometimes even success can make them disgusted: that was all too easy!

It takes a big toll, after the first couple of flip-flops.

True stability and competence in anything comes somewhere in the middle, and it comes also from forgiving yourself for your errors. In particular, while you are a kid and a teen, you have very little freedom, really, to go against the predominant cultures the adults around you insist on. So it is not at all surprising that you ended up in a show barn and never questioned the parts of the horse care that were cruel.

What you need to take away from this is that you also learned a lot that was good and useful, and now you are ready to move on.

Now that you know more, the answer is not to flip over to a straight PETA point of view, because hardline PETA doesn’t even allow for pets or riding horses. And don’t be swayed by self-righteous natural horsemanship people. A lot of that actually leads away from riding too, and attracts people who don’t actually want to ride.

If you are looking for direction, find some of the better western horsemanship trainers and learn from them. You will find that you can be clear, firm, and kind, without letting the horse walk all over you (just like you can be muddled, contradictory, and often cruel, and have a horse that doesn’t behave either). There is also good, kind, intelligent riding going on with both some western and some French classical trainers and instructors, riding that is about training and technique more than it is about short cuts to ribbons. There are a lot of ways to ride out there that are both effective and kind.

You may not be in the right barn yet, if you are getting criticized for riding in a bit :).

As far as saying if there’s love behind it, it can’t be abuse: I hope you understand how ridiculous that sounds to us older, more cynical folk :). The majority of women who are murdered each year are, after all, murdered by husbands, boyfriends, exboyfriends. Love and abuse can go hand in hand, unfortunately, because the heightened emotions of “love” can lead so quickly to anger, feelings of betrayal, abandonment, etc.

[drmgncolor]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8787082]
i LOVE my horse more than any other human or animal. i go out every night to feed her, pet her, brush her, hose her legs, check to make sure she is healthy, and i read her a bed time story before i leave. she is the best thing that could ever happen to me. [/QUOTE]

Dang. Please don’t tell my horse yours gets a bedtime story every night. Mine’s lucky to see me three days a week and even then she thinks peppermints are the highlight of our time spent together.

On a more serious note, I agree with the others who said it sounds like you have gone from one extreme to the other without a whole lot of experience in between. That’s got to be tough.

There’s a happy medium in there, you just need to find it.