Rated shows - Are we ready?

[thecolorcoal]

Disclaimer to say that while I’ve been riding for 18 years, a majority of that time has been as a lessoner/casual rider. Since buying my first horse the opportunity to show seriously has presented itself, and I want to take it.

So more of a finance question, but the opportunity to show at our local A-Circuit has presented itself. I’m not rich by any means and ride an OTTB I got for a song, brought her up myself before starting with a trainer last fall. She’s doing absolutely excellent and we’ve now got a new leaser on board, who unfortunately has my same financial crisis, but we’re going to make the show season work.

Here’s my issue: my horse is in training right now, 3’ hunters (still learning what all these divisions mean…). We have a seasonal circuit at my local training center, 5 shows over the summer. I’d get some USEF points for my mare and my trainer would get some bennies and exhibition for her business.

However, this will be her first show season and we’ve already been to one schooling show, and the next one is in two weeks. She kicked butt her first time out, 2 firsts, 2 seconds and a fourth (flat classes), but she’s still inexperienced showing.

So we have two choices: take her on our A-Circuit this season or take her to our Schooling Show circuit, which runs parallel, this season. The dilemma? Same price to do both. I live in an extremely expensive area, and financially it would cost the same for me. But we also don’t want to put down money for rated when we’d have no chance of scoring or pinning.

So, I’m looking for suggestions. Trainer is open to what leaser and I want to do. She says we’re going to do the cheaper schooling shows regardless, but the rated shows are our decision. I feel obliged to do them to help grow her business and put her on the map, but we’re also limited in funds and we can’t do both. I’ve gotten the rated show cost down to 2,000 for the entire season (that’s 5 shows, one day each), and I hope that’s allowed? I’ve never, ever shown rated before so I have no idea what’s going on. We could do the weekend, and switch off days between leaser and I to keep costs under control. Our barn is down the street from the show grounds so we would trail ride over.

Please help, if you can. Is it worth it to invest in it this year or should I wait till next year to debut. Horse in question is a 8 y/o OTTB mare, and we would be in the hunters/equitation ring.

I seek advice from those who have been there/done that and are more experienced than me.

[Scribbler]

Be guided by your coach.

In my region, both schooling and rated shows start at cross rails so there is no scope needed for rated. We have “regional” rated shows that go up to 3 feet with most competition in the 2 foot 6/ 2 foot 9 range. And we have “national” rated shows that also start low but go above 3 feet.

The little kids from the various lesson programs go jump cross rails and 2 foot or 2 foot 6 at rated shows. So really “being ready” is not a huge deal here. If some 10 year old can get their pony around the cross rails course in a creditable manner at a schooling show they can probably do it at a rated show. It just costs more.

And if the rated show is bigger and the classes larger, the competition will be stiffer.

Now things might play out differently in your area.

[ReturnCall90]

I agree with Scribbler.

Something to also think about is the atmosphere of each show. If I were showing a green horse I would choose the schooling show because they tend to be more casual. I bet they have more schooling and jumps that are more simple. I imagine you will be more competitive there than going right to an A show.

Either way, good luck and enjoy the process! Sounds like you have a nice young one on your hands.

[findeight]

Would at least start the year in the schooling shows. Usually the courses are " softer" and less intimidating then rated. 3’ Adults is tough, almost always way more horses then ribbons and you really need around an 80 to pin consistently, even in tne pastels. If you get a quality trip you will be fairly scored but,realistically, a few more miles on your mare to polish up your little details like getting to the first fence on pace and looking pretty, getting all the lines, all the lead changes and finding the center of every fence can’t hurt.

If your coach is already telling you that you aren’t not yet ready even if they sugar coat it a bit. I’d listen.

When you say the shows cost the same, are you including USEF, USHJA, dues, horse ID ( and microchip?) requirements? Or are you already paid up? And there additional fees unrated don’t have to collect, like zone, drug, mandatory night watch and such. Can’t believe the rated and unrated are exactly the same costs.

[Charanga2011]

I wouldn’t feel obligated to grow the trainer’s business, in my opinion that is her job. It wouldn’t hurt anything to do the schooling shows this year and really develop her. They seem to be more understanding about green horse antics. I myself will probably be doing schooling shows with my OTTB this first year to give her experience and to build her confidence before I even think of rated shows.

[ohmylivia]

Also something to keep in mind as you consider the schedule- for many of the rated shows (not all, but many), the Adult Amateur Hunter division will be held on multiple days. If getting points in a division or working towards a tricolor is part of your goals, just make sure you factor in that you may have to attend multiple days (which will add costs either in additional shipping, or in paying for a stall).
I’m also a little wary of your budget of $2k for 5 rated shows, even if you’re just shipping in for one day. Between shipping, class fees, braiding, training fees, and other show fees, that seems like a very very low cost per show for a supposedly expensive area. More power to you if you’ve managed to get costs down that far, please share your secrets!
Whatever you decide, good luck and have fun!

[fordtraktor]

Based on your posts on the dressage forum, you and your mare are not ready to show rated. Take it nice and slow, learn good basics, get your horse soft and rideable, don’t push her too hard and spend a year working up to higher fences. From the history there it doesn’t sound like she is ready to show at 3’ any time soon. Save your money at rated until you can go and be competitive.

Is this the same trainer who you feel is hard on your mare flatting? I originally thought your post sounded like basic flatwork but I am beginning to think this person is rushing you and your horse well beyond what you are ready for or conceptually understand, and worry this rush will reinjure the mare or stress her into having behavior issues again.

your job is not to develop the trainer’s business, your job is to make good decisions for your mare’s long-term growth and happiness. In fact, that is the trainer’s job too and if you are wondering about that now, ask her to slow down.

Leg to hand is the basis of good riding but I don’t like the later descriptions where you say there is a lot of wiggling the bit around. IMO that is bad dressage training. None of the good ones I have ever used would encourage that. It leads to headsets and not being on the bit/acceptance of the bit. You’ll end up with a horse behind the bit.

[blondewithchrome]

I would have to agree that it is shocking to hear that rated shows and schooling shows are the same price, but certainly not unbelievable. If you do rated shows, you’ll need to pay for horse registration, microchip, USEF and USHJA memberships for yourself ($150-200ish for the year, IIRC), admin fees, braiding, drug fees, higher division fees, etc. Braiding will run you 90$ a day. None of those fees are required for most local show series, though yours may be a pricey one.

In any case, if your horse just had her first outing and only did flat classes, the short answer is no, you’re not ready. Take it slow and enjoy the local shows, use them for a season or two of good mileage, then start with the baby greens. No reason to rush into showing at 3’ at rateds when there are plenty of more inviting divisions these days (pre-adults, local adults, schooling, etc - all run between 2’ and 2’6" usually). When you do have the experience and mileage, the 3’ will be a lovely experience, but I’d take it slow. Good luck, OP!

[Hendrick]

If it were me, I would do the schooling shows and aim to do one or two rated shows near the end of the season, in a 2’6 division. You would gain exposure to the type of riding/horses at that level and see where you and your horse are in comparison. Then you know what you need to work on over the winter to be competitive at that level.

[Scribbler]

If the horse is schooling or training 3 foot hunters at home you don’t compete at that level. You compete at a lower level.

If the horse placed at a schooling show in flat classes maybe the next step up is crosspoles to make sure the two of you can ride a course under pressure.

If it’s worth it to you to do crosspoles at a rated show just to say you’re showing rated, go for it. Otherwise it makes more sense to pick a credible schooling show and skip the extra fees.

[JenEM]

@thecolorcoal

However, this will be her first show season and we’ve already been to one schooling show, and the next one is in two weeks. She kicked butt her first time out, 2 firsts, 2 seconds and a fourth (flat classes), but she’s still inexperienced showing.

Am I reading this correctly, that the horse has never shown over fences? If that is the case, I would definitely start at the schooling shows, and NOT at 3’. How much showing experience do you/your leaser have, OP? Fences can look much different at shows than at home, and you want to make your first over fences experience a good one. Honestly, I’d go to the schooling show at 2’ the first time out, maybe the first two, and if the horse handles it well, move up at 2’6" for a show or two, maybe even the whole season. There’s generally some kind of 2’6 Low Adult Amateur division that you could aim for, have a good solid year there, and maybe have your trainer take the horse to a show or two at the end of the year in an open 3’ division. Usually schooling series have some kind of “open” or “working” division at that height, rated shows usually have a 3’ USHJA Hunter section, which ever works best for you and your trainer. Then be confident and ready for the rated stuff yourself next year.

I’m honestly really surprised to hear that a schooling show costs anywhere near what a rated show does. Especially once you factor in USE and USHJA memberships for you and the horse, if you want any of those points you were mentioning. Unless the horse is already registered and you just need to transfer ownership, you’re looking at $300+ right there. We have two facilities near me that have both A rated and good state-show-association sanctioned schooling shows, and there is a serious price differential between the two, before factoring in costs like memberships, braiding, etc. Because these shows are all close, I pretty regularly haul myself in for the day, and do my own braiding, so those costs are break even for me whether rated or not, and I usually spend a bit over $250 to the office to do one C-rated division at a rated show (so any of the 3’ sections you’re considering, basically). I can go do a division and a medal trip at the state sanctioned schooling show for around $100.

Are you sure you’re looking at all the costs on the rated show prize list? It’s not just the division fee, it’s things like the Office Fee and USHJA Zone/Drug Fees and Haul In Fee that start adding up; I usually pay almost half my money in fees at rated shows, as opposed to a much lower office fee at a schooling show, and that does make a difference.

[Scribbler]

Also OP why do you want USEF points on your horse? Are you trying to sell her? Are you trying to go for some year end award? Why is it important to get those points in the first year?

Again be guided by your trainer.

Some local trainers only do rated, and take the kiddies to rated crosspoles. Some local trainers only go to schooling shows. Some practice at schooling shows that have been deliberately scheduled for 2 weeks before a big rated show. A lot depends on the pockets of the clients (or their parents), the marketing strategy of the barn, and the convenience of the venues. Also the trainers assessment of the quality and culture of the shows.

Some schooling shows are very professional and have a good level of competition. Some are less well attended and looser all around. That can be a good or a bad thing, depending on what you want.

A trainer taking a student to a quality schooling show and have the horse and rider shown off doing well to the horse community is going to be happier than a trainer whose student insists on ridng above their level at a rated show just to show off, and makes a fool of both themselves and the trainer.

[OneTwoMany]

The answer (to me) is quite simple. Try the local circuit for the first week or two. If your mare kills it and your trainer thinks she is ready, consider stepping up to the “A” circuit later in the year.

If you and/or the mare is inexperienced in showing, it is best to take baby steps. First, try a schooling show or two (as you are doing now) and then some local shows before venturing out to something more intimidating like an “A” show. It is great to get a handful of seconds at a schooling show, but that won’t always translate to similar results when the competition goes up. At “A” shows the lines are set a bit longer, the fences are often a bit more intimidating. The PA system is distracting. Golf carts and scooters can be spooky. Take your time to “ease” into A circuit showing. Set yourself up for success. Go to local shows until your mare has a “been there, done that” attitude before taking on a bigger challenge. If you have your own trailer, consider hauling into the “A” show one day and doing some ticketed warm up or even just hacking around the show grounds. We do this with all our young horses. It allows them time to adjust to the new environment without adding undue stress.

I agree with earlier posters, it is the trainers job to build her own business. You aren’t obliged to do do that for her.

I also would find it odd that an “A” show costs as much to attend as a local show. At an “A” show, the adult hunter division usually runs over two days, and often trainers will incorporate a third day for schooling. When you add shipping fees, day fees and splits (which will all accrue to you if you are the only client going), office fees, division fees, trainer fees, a stall, bedding, hay, etc. $400 per week sounds implausibly low. I suspect we are missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Ladylexie]

@thecolorcoal

Disclaimer to say that while I’ve been riding for 18 years, a majority of that time has been as a lessoner/casual rider. Since buying my first horse the opportunity to show seriously has presented itself, and I want to take it.

So more of a finance question, but the opportunity to show at our local A-Circuit has presented itself. I’m not rich by any means and ride an OTTB I got for a song, brought her up myself before starting with a trainer last fall. She’s doing absolutely excellent and we’ve now got a new leaser on board, who unfortunately has my same financial crisis, but we’re going to make the show season work.

Here’s my issue: my horse is in training right now, 3’ hunters (still learning what all these divisions mean…). We have a seasonal circuit at my local training center, 5 shows over the summer. I’d get some USEF points for my mare and my trainer would get some bennies and exhibition for her business.

However, this will be her first show season and we’ve already been to one schooling show, and the next one is in two weeks. She kicked butt her first time out, 2 firsts, 2 seconds and a fourth (flat classes), but she’s still inexperienced showing.

So we have two choices: take her on our A-Circuit this season or take her to our Schooling Show circuit, which runs parallel, this season. The dilemma? Same price to do both. I live in an extremely expensive area, and financially it would cost the same for me. But we also don’t want to put down money for rated when we’d have no chance of scoring or pinning.

So, I’m looking for suggestions. Trainer is open to what leaser and I want to do. She says we’re going to do the cheaper schooling shows regardless, but the rated shows are our decision. I feel obliged to do them to help grow her business and put her on the map, but we’re also limited in funds and we can’t do both. I’ve gotten the rated show cost down to 2,000 for the entire season (that’s 5 shows, one day each), and I hope that’s allowed? I’ve never, ever shown rated before so I have no idea what’s going on. We could do the weekend, and switch off days between leaser and I to keep costs under control. Our barn is down the street from the show grounds so we would trail ride over.

Please help, if you can. Is it worth it to invest in it this year or should I wait till next year to debut. Horse in question is a 8 y/o OTTB mare, and we would be in the hunters/equitation ring.

I seek advice from those who have been there/done that and are more experienced than me.

Yikes I think you need to reevaluate everything. Your budget is not going to work.

[Scribbler]

@Ladylexie

Yikes I think you need to reevaluate everything. Your budget is not going to work.

If schooling shows cost as much as rated shows, no one would bother going to schooling shows.

I’m not even sure $2000 would cover five schooling shows once you factor in trailering and coaching fees on-site.

[JenEM]

@OneTwoMany

I also would find it odd that an “A” show costs as much to attend as a local show. At an “A” show, the adult hunter division usually runs over two days, and often trainers will incorporate a third day for schooling. When you add shipping fees, day fees and splits (which will all accrue to you if you are the only client going), office fees, division fees, trainer fees, a stall, bedding, hay, etc. $400 per week sounds implausibly low. I suspect we are missing a piece of the puzzle.

It’s not impossible to do $400/show, if the circumstances are right. Not all A shows run the Adults over two days–most small As here it runs one day, only the Jrs/AOs are split over two. If you haul in for one day and don’t stable, you don’t have the stall/splits/daycare/etc that really rack up fees. I do my own hauling, care, and braiding (except tails), and pay a bit under that when I add in gas and trainer fees. But I’ve also go enough experience that my trainer knows I can do all that myself and save the money while still turning up looking like someone who belongs at an A show.

Now, given OPs own statements, I’m going to have to assume much/most of that does not apply to the OP, so I agree that her estimate sounds implausibly low, because even factoring in that I can show for that cost, my annual show budget is considerably higher than hers. It also does not sound like her trainer, who from posts on the Dressage forum sounds like a primarily eventing trainer, does much/any rated showing, so might also be underestimating what’s involved. It does sound like a pretty reasonable figure for a recognized HT.

[Scribbler]

Hmm as well if you are going to show hunters with an eventing trainer who doesn’t necessarily know the hunter routine really well, there will be a learning curve for trainer as well as student. Best to get the kinks out at a smaller venue.

And yes, to anticipate the OPs next likely started topic “is there a difference between how horses go in hunter, show jumping, and eventing?”

Yes. At the upper levels horses specialize. Eventing show jumping can be less technical than straight show jumping at the same height because the game is really cross country.

Both show jumping and cross country are timed events whereas hunter is based on form and even pace. A good hunter is not always interchangeable with a good show jumper, and probably would not be suitable for eventing.

So why OP is using an eventing dressage coach to prep for rated hunter shows does puzzle me.

[Ladylexie]

Maybe OP can clarify some points here.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you everyone for your answers. I had suspected we were not ready for the rated shows but the price difference is so insignificant that it’s a matter of what my mare will be more successful in.

Someone mentioned my coach sugar coating our abilities, and that’s probably true. She doesn’t want to throw water on my burning passion to kickstart this show journey i have waited 2 years to begin (we had hiccups the past 2 years), but I also think she’s trying to slow me down and get me realistic on what my horse can and can’t do.

My only show experience is schooling. I did our schooling circuit last year and I showed IHSA when I was in college, which isn’t the same I admit but at least I got used to riding under pressure.

I am a very casual rider. I am there to have fun and learn. I admit I am not always comfortable with the atmosphere and expectations in the hunter classes and feel I don’t belong because my horse/saddle/bridle/clothes aren’t expensive. I grew up riding at very fancy show barns and I was the kid in the t-shirt and stained breeches, so I’m a bit intimidated by who I will be surrounded by.

My leaser, in contrast, did show on the circuit in her younger years and took a break after college, so she knows what needs to be done. She’s a very experienced rider and is more likely to show rated than I, as she’d give my horse a better trip.

She, understandably, also wants to get her money’s worth and isn’t sure horsey is ready for rated, but rated was her dream with my horse so we’ve got some conflicting pressures.

As far as prices go, it is 55/class or 275/section (5 classes) + $100 application. The show is 4 days long, and we would be on the weekends. We omit trailer fees (we’re walking over), stall fees (we’re walking home), braiding fees (my trainer braids for us), and other tiny expenses charged by the show for those importing from other places. All caught up on my fees, horse has her microchip, just needs to be registered with USEF/USHJA and I am sending in my fees in March for her.

It is a series of 5, so we would probably be able to do 2 this season, if we did them at all.

The schooling shows are $50 a class, $250 for a section, $35 office fee, $15 grounds fee, $8 drug fee, and a few others on top of that. So in essence they are closer to the same price but the application fee is less in the schooling shows.

Our park isn’t hosting any usdf dressage shows this year… super bummed about that, too.

We’re on a pretty tight budget but I am a number cruncher so I’ve caculated it’s going to be about ~400 with extras on top (drug fee, participation fee, grounds use fee) for each day, if we do one section. If we do medal classes (our equitation) it’s less, and jumper classes is more.

@Scribbler - i mentioned several times dressage is my side project with my mare. She was bought as a jumper horse but as she and I have progressed I’ve realized i am not as passionate about jumping as I used to be. Trainer is experienced in dressage but has chosen to specialize in H/J. She has an eventing background and showed USDF when she was younger, but got into H/J after getting a job managing a show barn downtown from where we board. She now has her training program at the barn I am at, along with her fleet of school horses. I am her third in-house client, and she mostly is a commuter trainer and also trains those at our horse park. It is her first year being independent of any barn she’s been previously employed to, so helping her with her business was also my goal in showing rated as I know that would reflect well for her business

[JenEM]

@thecolorcoal

Thank you everyone for your answers. I had suspected we were not ready for the rated shows but the price difference is so insignificant that it’s a matter of what my mare will be more successful in.

Someone mentioned my coach sugar coating our abilities, and that’s probably true. She doesn’t want to throw water on my burning passion to kickstart this show journey i have waited 2 years to begin (we had hiccups the past 2 years), but I also think she’s trying to slow me down and get me realistic on what my horse can and can’t do.

My only show experience is schooling. I did our schooling circuit last year and I showed IHSA when I was in college, which isn’t the same I admit but at least I got used to riding under pressure.

I am a very casual rider. I am there to have fun and learn. I admit I am not always comfortable with the atmosphere and expectations in the hunter classes and feel I don’t belong because my horse/saddle/bridle/clothes aren’t expensive. I grew up riding at very fancy show barns and I was the kid in the t-shirt and stained breeches, so I’m a bit intimidated by who I will be surrounded by.

My leaser, in contrast, did show on the circuit in her younger years and took a break after college, so she knows what needs to be done. She’s a very experienced rider and is more likely to show rated than I, as she’d give my horse a better trip.

She, understandably, also wants to get her money’s worth and isn’t sure horsey is ready for rated, but rated was her dream with my horse so we’ve got some conflicting pressures.

As far as prices go, it is 55/class or 275/section (5 classes) + $100 application. The show is 4 days long, and we would be on the weekends. We omit trailer fees (we’re walking over), stall fees (we’re walking home), braiding fees (my trainer braids for us), and other tiny expenses charged by the show for those importing from other places. All caught up on my fees, horse has her microchip, just needs to be registered with USEF/USHJA and I am sending in my fees in March for her.

It is a series of 5, so we would probably be able to do 2 this season, if we did them at all.

The schooling shows are $50 a class, $250 for a section, $35 office fee, $15 grounds fee, $8 drug fee, and a few others on top of that. So in essence they are closer to the same price but the application fee is less in the schooling shows.

Our park isn’t hosting any usdf dressage shows this year… super bummed about that, too.

We’re on a pretty tight budget but I am a number cruncher so I’ve caculated it’s going to be about ~400 with extras on top (drug fee, participation fee, grounds use fee) for each day, if we do one section. If we do medal classes (our equitation) it’s less, and jumper classes is more.

@Scribbler - i mentioned several times dressage is my side project with my mare. She was bought as a jumper horse but as she and I have progressed I’ve realized i am not as passionate about jumping as I used to be. Trainer is experienced in dressage but has chosen to specialize in H/J. She has an eventing background and showed USDF when she was younger, but got into H/J after getting a job managing a show barn downtown from where we board. She now has her training program at the barn I am at, along with her fleet of school horses. I am her third in-house client, and she mostly is a commuter trainer and also trains those at our horse park. It is her first year being independent of any barn she’s been previously employed to, so helping her with her business was also my goal in showing rated as I know that would reflect well for her business

Even if you’re walking over and not actually trailering in, you’ll pay ship-in fees; it’s an either-or thing. I’m not sure what you mean by “application” fees. Nominating fees? Like for jumpers? Those are usually only for higher-level jumper classes, I’ve not seen them on a hunter division. And those schooling show fees are the highest I’ve ever seen. Do you have links to prizelists? I’m really curious, and perhaps if we knew what your options were there we could guide you a bit, though it sounds like your trainer really wants to do that and keep your expectations reasonable and in line with your budget. That is a GOOD thing. And you help your trainer build her business by showing successfully at a level at which you and your horse are capable. It doesn’t matter whether that is Pleasure flat classes or Amateur Owners. People will notice success, and failure. Be the success.

You do not walk in the show ring with a dollar sign and a tack company logo over you when you step in the ring. If you look clean, fit, and tidy, and blend in with everyone else’s look, no one will know whether you spent $5 or $500 on your bridle. The judge wants to see a good trip, they don’t care about the tag on your pants. Though it sounds like you’re not particularly keen on showing. You don’t have to show if you’re not in to it. Just enjoy your horse, let your leaser go show if that’s what she enjoys. Or let her go do a few rated shows while you stick with the schooling stuff.