Really Pre-Green? Loophole exposed!

[lockedoutalter]

I was looking at some of the records of the horses leading the pre-green incentive and I’m a little disappointed to see that some of the horses sitting on top of the leaderboard have ribboned at 3’6 only to drop back down to the pre-greens. Casanova did three competitons at 3’6 (even earning reserve champion at Ocala out of 24 horses in the 1st years) MTM Elemantary, Saphir, and I’m sure others, but I had to stop looking.

I understand that they can reinstate green statuses and it’s in the rules, but it still rubs me the wrong way.

It seems that everyone is always looking for way to skirt around green statuses. I’m sure that plenty of pre-green horses were already imported with 3’6 experience, but then to show in the 1st years and then decide to drop down anyway just seems to be playing the system.

[lauriep]

I completely agree. And I think it behooves the organizers to crack down on horse ID and show records. There is now a lot of money involved, and if it looks like the same old same old keep winning with their previously shown European imports, the program will die. If they don’t care to make it really fair, participation will either evaporate or it will become yet another “fake” division.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Yes, I doubt if you were reserve that your horse was over-faced at 3’6 (could happen but doubtful)… but isn’t it nice that people find ways around rules. (insert sarcastic face).

[EAY]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7127044]
Yes, I doubt if you were reserve that your horse was over-faced at 3’6 (could happen but doubtful)… [/QUOTE]

Then show it in the 3’3 performance.

[horsepoor]

Well, if I remember right, you can have a horse reinstated in first year green if it has only gone to 4 or fewer shows at that height (ETA, checked rules and this is right). When reinstated as first year green, it looks like the USEF let’s them show Pregreen if otherwise eligible. So if, say, Horse shows 1st yr green at a couple of shows, gets hurt or whatever, so they have it reinstated as 1st yr green, it can show Pregreen until it starts up its 1st yr green again…confusing, but appears to be within the rules. I don’t know about those particular horses, but suspect it has to do with this.

[lockedoutalter]

[QUOTE=horsepoor;7127125]
Well, if I remember right, you can have a horse reinstated in first year green if it has only gone to 4 or fewer shows at that height (ETA, checked rules and this is right). When reinstated as first year green, it looks like the USEF let’s them show Pregreen if otherwise eligible. So if, say, Horse shows 1st yr green at a couple of shows, gets hurt or whatever, so they have it reinstated as 1st yr green, it can show Pregreen until it starts up its 1st yr green again…confusing, but appears to be within the rules. I don’t know about those particular horses, but suspect it has to do with this.[/QUOTE]

I understand that it’s in the rules, but like I said- it rubs me the wrong way. Especially now that there is a lot of money at stake. Now people have “incentive” to show a horse in the 1st years at 3 or so shows then if they aren’t winning consistently - drop them back down to pre-green and enroll in the incentive program.

I think once you show over 3’6 no matter what- no pre-greens for you

[BBowen]

Isn’t that always the case when there is significant money involved? It really puts those nice true pre-green horses at a disadvantage when showing against the “professional pre-green” horses. Really a shame for those that enjoy bringing along a nice young horse and then get shut out in the show ring due to loopholes. I guess it is what it is.

[horsepoor]

I guess it doesn’t bother me as I don’t know the particular circumstances and just figure if someone follows the rules, it is not for me to say it is wrong. Heck, maybe Horse crashed at home schooling and only wants to do 3’ now…if it meets the requirements for the PG, let it show. While money probably enters into some of the decisions, I don’t want to paint them all with that same brush.

[lockedoutalter]

Please someone tell me I’m crazy - but how is Scripted in the Pre-Green Finals?

http://usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx

6 shows over 3’6 (rule states no more than 4) and even classes at 3’9.

Do I have the wrong horse?

ETA: No, this is the correct horse and a complete flaunting of the loophole. This horse did 3 shows- 6 divisions at 3’6 and above ribboning in them. Then on the fourth show they did 1 pre green class and an incentive class- winning it to qualify for finals. This needs to be examined if this incentive program is going to survive.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=EAY;7127112]
Then show it in the 3’3 performance.[/QUOTE]

I am AGREEING they shouldn’t be in the Pre Green. Certainly it “can” happen but with the pros and at level, not often. Geez.

[slp]

How long are they able to even compete in pre-green? I always thought it was two years. I know of a trainer that has been showing a horse for the previous three years in 3’ - 3’3" classes (adult amateur and the performance classes, quite a few of them) and this summer was back in the low pre-greens. Is this legit?

[Spotted_Pony]

[QUOTE=slp;7127387]
How long are they able to even compete in pre-green? I always thought it was two years. I know of a trainer that has been showing a horse for the previous three years in 3’ - 3’3" classes (adult amateur and the performance classes, quite a few of them) and this summer was back in the low pre-greens. Is this legit?[/QUOTE]

It seems not:

HU 106.3

e. A horse’s pre-green status may be reinstated for a future competition year if it was not shown at the 3’ height or 3’3" height at more than four (4) competitions prior to September 1st and if it was not shown at that height after September 1st in the same year.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=lockedoutalter;7127336]
Please someone tell me I’m crazy - but how is Scripted in the Pre-Green Finals?

http://usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx

6 shows over 3’6 (rule states no more than 4) and even classes at 3’9.

Do I have the wrong horse?

ETA: No, this is the correct horse and a complete flaunting of the loophole. This horse did 3 shows- 6 divisions at 3’6 and above ribboning in them. Then on the fourth show they did 1 pre green class and an incentive class- winning it to qualify for finals. This needs to be examined if this incentive program is going to survive.[/QUOTE]

That horse’s USEF record starts in July 2013. In other words, it has been showing at recognized shows in this country for about 6 weeks. Possible European show experience aside (yes, that’s a huge problem but not really what this thread is about), the horse is eligible pre-green until the last day of November 2013. Just because they chose to show it in other divisions doesn’t make it not eligible for the pre-greens.

The same applies to other horses that are mentioned here. What is the loophole that is being flaunted?

[iEquitate]

I’m pretty sure Pre-Green is a year long eligibility division, similar to first years… you can do the grand prix for all they care, but until November you are eligible pre-green, thus enabling the ‘loopholes’. (Unless I’m wrong, then disregard me)

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=iEquitate;7127478]
I’m pretty sure Pre-Green is a year long eligibility division, similar to first years… you can do the grand prix for all they care, but until November you are eligible pre-green, thus enabling the ‘loopholes’. (Unless I’m wrong, then disregard me) ;)[/QUOTE]

Ok so now the loophole(s) is being enabled as well as flaunted. I’m asking someone to explain what is the actual loophole with regards to pre-green eligibility of these horses.

[Peggy]

Here is the complete text of HU 106.3. My interpretation of 106.3.a (bolding mine) is that once a horse does 3’6" or higher they are out of pre-greens for the rest of the year unless they do the reinstatement. Is this correct?

---

Pre-Green - Unless USHJA Zone Committees submit their specifications byAugust 1st to the Federation, the following specifications will apply:
a. A Pre-Green Hunter is a horse of any age in his first or second year of showing over 3’ or 3’3” fences that has never competed over fences of 3’6” (1.07m) orhigher. A horse that receives a 1st Year Green Reinstatement may return toPre-Green if it is otherwise eligible.
b. A horse’s Pre-Green Status is not affected by showing as a three-year-old.c. Classes may be divided by height section 3’ and 3’3”. You may not show inboth height sections at the same competition. Horses may compete in bothheight sections within the same competition year.
d. No jogging is required.
e. A horse’s pre-green status may be reinstated for a future competition year if itwas not shown at the 3’ height or 3’3” height at more than four (4) competitionsprior to September 1st and if it was not shown at that height after September 1stin the same year.
f. The Federation recorded owner must submit the pre-green reinstatementapplication, which must reach the Federation office on or before November 30thof the year of withdrawal. The request must be made during the year in whichpre-green status was broken.
g. A processing fee, a list of competitions with dates where the horse competedat its regulation height or higher, the horse’s name and Federation recordingnumber must be included on the reinstatement application.
h.At the time of request, the horse must stop competing over fences its respectiveheight or higher for the remainder of that competition year.
i. If the horse is not actively recorded at the time of request, it must be recorded/renewed at that time. Failure to do so will result in the horse losing its pre-greenstatus. The owner will receive notification indicating the horses’ pre-greeneligibility.
j. A pre-green reinstatement will only be granted one time.
k.In the event an owner of a horse is not satisfied with the decision, they maysubmit a written appeal to be heard by the Federation Hearing Committee withthe required appeal fee. An appeal does not guarantee the reinstatement will begranted.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Peggy;7127494]
Here is the complete text of HU 106.3. My interpretation of 106.3.a (bolding mine) is that once a horse does 3’6" or higher they are out of pre-greens for the rest of the year unless they do the reinstatement. Is this correct?[/QUOTE]

No, that’s not correct. If a horse is eligible pre-green on Dec 1 of any given year, it is eligible pre-green for that entire show year, no matter what height it shows over in that year.

[circus_peanuts]

A pre-green horse is supposed to have never competed over 3’6.

I can see both sides of the coin here. I think it’s not so much a “loophole” as it is an ethical question. Yes, we can show our horse in the bigger divisions and then drop back down to pre-green. But after a horse has success at 3’6 and 3’9 - why feel the need? That’s what feels weird to me.

Sure, you can do it but is it in good taste? I personally do not think so.

I think that this is just another nail in the coffin of the legitimate homebred that is going up the levels. We have a horse that showed in the Regular Conformations and got champion, but then decided to go to pre-green finals and take the prize money away from horses in their first year at 3’.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

[QUOTE=iEquitate;7127478]
I’m pretty sure Pre-Green is a year long eligibility division, similar to first years… you can do the grand prix for all they care, but until November you are eligible pre-green, thus enabling the ‘loopholes’.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Ugh. Although, now that you mention it, I can recall seeing horses doing both the pre-greens and the first-years–this was many, many years ago, so I’m not sure if this is still allowed at the same horse show.

You know, I haven’t shown in that level in, gosh, 16 years, and I still love to see a beautiful hunter. But if you’re going to import a horse who has already done the height and show it at a height 3 to 12 inches lower to what it has been doing and call it “green?” In the words of ESPN: “C’mon, man!”

[circus_peanuts]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7127506]
No, that’s not correct. If a horse is eligible pre-green on Dec 1 of any given year, it is eligible pre-green for that entire show year, no matter what height it shows over in that year.[/QUOTE]

Are you reading the rule? It distinctly says NOT COMPETED OVER 3’6. That is a class specification. Once they show over 3’6 they have to get their green reinstated in order to go back to pre-greens. It’s different for 1st years where they can show any height after they break it. Pre-green is supposed to prepare you for the 1st years, not be a back up plan when prize money is an encouraging factor.