Really Pre-Green? Loophole exposed!

[theartofthespy]

[QUOTE=Peggy;7127494]
Here is the complete text of HU 106.3. My interpretation of 106.3.a (bolding mine) is that once a horse does 3’6" or higher they are out of pre-greens for the rest of the year unless they do the reinstatement. Is this correct?[/QUOTE]

Horses may show at 3’6 or above as long as it is in the same year as their pre-green years. It is most definitely more of a question of morality. I personally think it is NOT a bad thing this year or next year for ‘professional’ pre green horses to be included to get the program off the ground. I think in the future there should be more strict guidelines and rules. In the end it all comes down to the money and power of the hunter world. It usually doesn’t leave much room for the poor or less experienced.

[EAY]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7127381]
I am AGREEING they shouldn’t be in the Pre Green. Certainly it “can” happen but with the pros and at level, not often. Geez.[/QUOTE]

And I was agreeing with you. Sorry if it didn’t come across that way. What I meant was if the horse has a scare and needs to move down a level the 3’3 performance division is there. But what we’re seeing here is most likely because of the big $$$ in the incentive program not training issues.

[stolen_virtue]

Which is why I am skipping the hunters and just going right into the jumpers…

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=EAY;7127531]
And I was agreeing with you. Sorry if it didn’t come across that way. What I meant was if the horse has a scare and needs to move down a level the 3’3 performance division is there. But what we’re seeing here is most likely because of the big $$$ in the incentive program not training issues.[/QUOTE]

Thanks and sorry if I took it wrong. I need to step away from the keyboard . I totally agree with you.

[olivertwist96]

This might be a dumb question but by “year” does the USEF mean calendar year/competition season (Dec 1- Nov 30) or does it mean the actual first year the horse starts showing? For example, my 6 yr old did her first show in July. Is she eligible Pre-Green until Nov 30 or July 2014??

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=olivertwist96;7127784]
This might be a dumb question but by “year” does the USEF mean calendar year/competition season (Dec 1- Nov 30) or does it mean the actual first year the horse starts showing? For example, my 6 yr old did her first show in July. Is she eligible Pre-Green until Nov 30 or July 2014??[/QUOTE]

Show year. Eligible until Nov 30.

[olivertwist96]

Thanks… been wondering that for a while. They should be more clear about that in the rules. Good thing she will be ready for the First Years in Dec

[leyla25]

this is the same group of people that show green horses in Florida and green ponies that have been showing in Europe for five years. It will never change as many of the judges make money out of this, and the trainers, and the USEF.

[Spotted_Pony]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7127506]
No, that’s not correct. If a horse is eligible pre-green on Dec 1 of any given year, it is eligible pre-green for that entire show year, no matter what height it shows over in that year.[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with this, from experience. Once a horse has competed over 3’6" it is not eligible. A Pre Green horse, unless it gets reinstated as listed above. I had a horse showing in the Pre Greens during the Jacksonville series several years ago. It was the last week and he was up for series champion. It came down to the last week and he placed behind a horse that was showing in the Jr. Hunters the same week. This would have knocked him out of the Championship. I brought the fact that the horse was also showing ( and doing well) in the Jrs also and he was disqualified from the Pre Greens.

[Peggy]

It would be interesting to get a clarification on this. I was reading it like breaking your maiden–once you jump the higher height you’re out, even midyear.

[Spotted_Pony]

[QUOTE=Peggy;7127847]
It would be interesting to get a clarification on this. I was reading it like breaking your maiden–once you jump the higher height you’re out, even midyear.[/QUOTE]

You are correct, with the exception of the reinstatement clause. BUT you must go through that reinstatement process before you can compete at the lower levels.

i have also found, on more than one occasion, that no one is routinely policing this. The office will take your entries, or even more common an “add” without checking eligibility. If it is not brought to their attention the show collects the entry fee and that’s that.

[justathought]

I agree with the mention that with the Pre-green incentive in place the USEF needs to be serious about policing former show records – whether they be here or outside the country.

The imported horse is a real problem - and a real burden on developing US bred horses. Its a loophole that everyone acknowledges but its s long way from getting addressed.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Spotted Pony;7127846]
I have to disagree with this, from experience. Once a horse has competed over 3’6" it is not eligible. A Pre Green horse, unless it gets reinstated as listed above. I had a horse showing in the Pre Greens during the Jacksonville series several years ago. It was the last week and he was up for series champion. It came down to the last week and he placed behind a horse that was showing in the Jr. Hunters the same week. This would have knocked him out of the Championship. I brought the fact that the horse was also showing ( and doing well) in the Jrs also and he was disqualified from the Pre Greens.[/QUOTE]

There could have been a recent rule change that would make you right, but I’m thinking that hasn’t happened because of the show records of the horses that placed at the top of today’s Pre-Green Hunter Incentive whatever it was called. If you are correct, most of the horses that won money would have been ineligible for the class. If that were the case, at least ONE PERSON would have protested before tonight’s class ever started.

The rules are have always been pretty consistent as far as eligibility. If you have a horse that is eligible for a specific devision as of Dec 1 of any given year, that horse is eligible for said division for the ENTIRE show year, no matter what you show it in during that year.

This is why ponies can show in both the green and regular divisions for an entire show year, and why horses can show in green and regular divisions in any given show year. I think pre-green is not nationally recognized, so there could be differences in that way, but I would think if there is a difference, someone would have mentioned it before the final round of the Pre-Green Hunter Incentive finals. Because why would’t someone?

[3Dogs]

So discouraging
And so many comments spot on
AND

Not to mention the recent imports who come in with “unknown breeding” who suddenly appear in the 3 foot divisions as “Pre Greens” when, in fact, gosh, been showing 1.30 meter classes in Europe. Or higher

sigh

[lrp1106]

The majority of this thread is the exact reason why the poorly-written USEF rules need major clarification. I don’t know which is true (entire year vs. ends when competed at 3’6"), but the fact that I can’t figure it out by reading the rules is a little alarming.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=justathought;7127869]
I agree with the mention that with the Pre-green incentive in place the USEF needs to be serious about policing former show records – whether they be here or outside the country.

The imported horse is a real problem - and a real burden on developing US bred horses. Its a loophole that everyone acknowledges but its s long way from getting addressed.[/QUOTE]

Unless the rules for pre-green eligibility are different than every other green status eligibility rule, none of the horses mentioned are NOT eligible (unless the USEF starts taking European show records into consideration, which apparently they don’t at this time).

And the fact that the Europeans are producing better show hunters than the US breeders can is not the fault of the USHJA. There is no loophole there. US breeders will only be competitive when they stop being so barn blind and start seeing what they are doing as a business. The few that are able to do that here in this country are too few and far between. Breeders in the USA are their own worst enemy for the most part.

[Spotted_Pony]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7127892]
There could have been a recent rule change that would make you right, but I’m thinking that hasn’t happened because of the show records of the horses that placed at the top of today’s Pre-Green Hunter Incentive whatever it was called. If you are correct, most of the horses that won money would have been ineligible for the class. If that were the case, at least ONE PERSON would have protested before tonight’s class ever started.

The rules are have always been pretty consistent as far as eligibility. If you have a horse that is eligible for a specific devision as of Dec 1 of any given year, that horse is eligible for said division for the ENTIRE show year, no matter what you show it in during that year.

This is why ponies can show in both the green and regular divisions for an entire show year, and why horses can show in green and regular divisions in any given show year. I think pre-green is not nationally recognized, so there could be differences in that way, but I would think if there is a difference, someone would have mentioned it before the final round of the Pre-Green Hunter Incentive finals. Because why would’t someone?[/QUOTE]

Any of the horses that had competed at 3’6" were eligible to request a “green reinstatement”. If they are also in their first or second year of showing they are also eligible to return to the PreGreens.

The rule specifically states “may not compete at 3’6” or higher". Therefore, you may not compete in both PreGreen and 1st Yrs at the same competition, as was my experience. The rule says nothing about being eligible for the entire show year.

There is a difference in the way the rule is written for the Green Horse/Pony Divisions that allow horses/ponies to cross enter into both.

[Denzel]

It really seems like the hunters are spiralling more and more downhill. Entries in the regular hunters are declining because everyone seems to want to stay at 3’ and below forever.

The USEF (and EC too!) really needs to get on the ball and start policing horse records much better! Horses being imported as “unknown breeding” and doing the baby/pre-greens when they have 1.20+ show experience is RIDICULOUS. I totally understand that it is a process getting them to “go like a hunter” after being jumper trained, but the majority of the time, it is PROFESSIONALS showing these horses! It should not take you 2 years to get a horse with 1.20+ experience to lope around the 3’6+ hunters if that’s it’s natural way of going.

Hunter breeders in North America need to notice that Europe seems to breed FAR better hunters by accident than North Americans breed on purpose!

[olivertwist96]

[QUOTE=Denzel;7127998]

Hunter breeders in North America need to notice that Europe seems to breed FAR better hunters by accident than North Americans breed on purpose![/QUOTE]

I disagree. This has nothing to do with the American breeders not being up to speed with Europeans. Many of the horses in those lower divisions are imported as well.

There are soooooooo many nice stallions and awesome breeding programs in the US. The problem is that a lot of people don’t realize that you pay for bloodlines and quality… which means sometimes you are paying a lot for a green animal. People would rather import something from Europe that is further along and cheaper because it is too slow to be a jumper and therefore not of any use to the Europeans. I just bought a 5 year old from a very reputable breeder here in the states. For what I paid, I could have imported something from Europe with show experience. But I chose to buy from an American breeder because I want to support breeders here in the US. What the breeders need is more support from the buyers, not better breeding programs.

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7127919]
Unless the rules for pre-green eligibility are different than every other green status eligibility rule, none of the horses mentioned are NOT eligible (unless the USEF starts taking European show records into consideration, which apparently they don’t at this time).

And the fact that the Europeans are producing better show hunters than the US breeders can is not the fault of the USHJA. There is no loophole there. US breeders will only be competitive when they stop being so barn blind and start seeing what they are doing as a business. The few that are able to do that here in this country are too few and far between. Breeders in the USA are their own worst enemy for the most part.[/QUOTE]

If I’m reading the rule correctly, the pre-green and green status rules are written differently. Exemptions aside, pre-green is based on never having jumped 3’6" or higher. Green is based on the horse being in its first year of showing 3’6" or higher.

I realize that the intent of the rule may well be different than the statement of the rule, as in how European experience is counted.

But I am a nobody who wears a plastic helmet when she rides.