Really Pre-Green? Loophole exposed!

[Linny]

While I agree that many US breeders wait too long on youngsters they are disadvantaged by the price tags of horse shows. Get your baby out to some of the bigger venues for experience and exposure to BNTs and you are pouring big money into the process.

As far as the green situation, my background is in racing and in that area there is complete reciprocity between countries. I cannot import a proven winner from Europe and start him back over in maiden races just because all his races overseas were on grass, and now he’s trying the dirt. I could plead that he’s always lived at a trainers yard and shipped to race and now has to live on a backstretch in the shadow of JFK but to no avail. Of course because of the betting, racing is better policed. Registration papers must be in the racing office when and wherever a horse races. ID is verified before each race. TBs are DNA tested, tattooed etc.
in this era of technology, it would seem that tracking the true identity of a registered horse should be possible. As far as the rules, it seems stupid to me that a horse could be eligible for pre green on Dec 1, proceed to show at 3’6 (say in juniors or A/Os ) and yet retain its pre green status through the show year. It also seems like the USEF is willing to hand out reinstatements like candy.Also, a TB that leaves the track as a late 5yo and spends the next next year freshening, learning to jump, maybe doing some little locals would be hitting the pre greens at 7.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=Linny;7129861]
While I agree that many US breeders wait too long on youngsters they are disadvantaged by the price tags of horse shows. Get your baby out to some of the bigger venues for experience and exposure to BNTs and you are pouring big money into the process. [/QUOTE]
Yes, I think it’s pretty common knowledge that you can put show miles on a young horse in Europe for a lot less money. So for the same price, you can often buy a horse with much more show experience from Europe.

[Ruby_G_Weber]

I see two solutions here. One would be to continue on the current path/current rules, turning the clock back included, accepting the premise that most horses competing in the “pre green” have more experience than the literal definition of a pre green. Or set reasonable/workable perimeters which expand the - probably now archaic - definition of a pre green hunter.

[lauriep]

Microchips are the answer. People aren’t going to be digging them out willy mildly, and if the FEI requires it, and these horses show in Europe, they have to show FEI, so will have to be chipped. If our federation would simply follow their lead instead of constantly swimming upstream against the current, this could be completely addressed in a couple of years. American breds would also be chipped, obviously.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=Ruby G. Weber;7129891]
I see two solutions here. One would be to continue on the current path/current rules, turning the clock back included, accepting the premise that most horses competing in the “pre green” have more experience than the literal definition of a pre green. Or set reasonable/workable perimeters which expand the - probably now archaic - definition of a pre green hunter.[/QUOTE]

If everyone were competing on European imports, yes. But showing American breds, which we SHOULD be promoting, and having to compete against these horses, is a clear disadvantage. And of course, we want a fair shot at the money, too.

[Ruby_G_Weber]

The American bred horses have an advantage the European bred ones don’t. They can get all the “unrecognized” mileage - in hunter classes -they want without documentation. Not saying that is right or wrong just saying it is how it is.
So I guess there is no simple solution IF one thinks there is a problem. The outcome this year would have been considerably different if one could only roll the clock back to the Performance 3’3" and not Pre Green 3’3".
Much to ponder.

[TSWJB]

Wow! No wonder everyone buys from Europe! First off I think the European riders are much better. They know dressage and put a good base on the horses. Then when they come over here they are green. There is no way an American bred horse can compete with that. Its about miles and confidence.

[TSWJB]

I don’t agree with you. I don’t see the better riders hanging around schooling shows. And the schooling shows certainty are not WEF or Kentucky. You need good riders to make up confident horses

[3Dogs]

TSWJB - I don’t agree entirely with you. What I do agree with is that there are a lot of horses bred in a small geographic area (Europe), there is a system of young horse starters and there are a lot of local, one day shows to START young horses that are far more affordable that here in the US.

Where we diverge is that I know there is a pretty rapid “cull” system in Europe - and horses are pushed pretty fast to find out the ones to “cull”. The “culls” are not horses we wouldn’t love - they are horses that won’t go to the top of their chosen sport - dressage or jumpers -
But this doesn’t change that it appears rules ARE bent and that money swoops in very suddenly and quickly to buy what just might WIN the big money classes “coming up” - even if it is highly suspect they meet the rules of the division
And the breakdown rate of the pushed fast isn’t mentioned but one year a trainer I was with brought back 9 horses from Europe and 7 ended up out of action in short order - and it wasn’t due to “poor care” …

A stallion owner in CA - who most likely will not come forward - pulled her stallion from First Year Greens because of a “complaint” that the horse had shown much higher than 3’6" in Europe. Why did someone KNOW that - ? The name wasn’t changed and the results were available. Never showed as a hunter but SO stopped showing the horse in that division - unaware of the violation before going into the First Years. Seems the rules applied differently now - there are so MANY examples (Commentary come to mind?)
It is very sad IMHO -
Meanwhile, I went to a big show in an area and ran into locals and asked if they went to the shows to “watch”. They said “no” - that the showing of horses seemed full of people they couldn’t relate to.
Just watched the Tour of Champions jumper class live stream from Europe and the stands were packed.

Sorry if off on a slightly different tangent but it all ties in -

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;7130066]

Meanwhile, I went to a big show in an area and ran into locals and asked if they went to the shows to “watch”. They said “no” - that the showing of horses seemed full of people they couldn’t relate to.
Just watched the Tour of Champions jumper class live stream from Europe and the stands were packed.

Sorry if off on a slightly different tangent but it all ties in -[/QUOTE]

I will follow you on that tangent I wonder if the fact Europe does Jumpers, no Hunters… and as much as I love and ride Hunters, it’s not too exciting to watch. I think it’s beautiful and know how hard it is to get that nice round, nailing every distance… but Jumpers - that’s pretty exciting.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=theartofthespy;7127524]
… In the end it all comes down to the money and power of the hunter world. It usually doesn’t leave much room for the poor or less experienced.[/QUOTE]

Or the actual pre-green.

Is this actually a division we need? Seems ridiculous to me for a horse to be able to hop around the 1.20’s in Europe, get imported, lose the passport, do a few years as pre-green. Isn’t it more than a little silly to have first year green horses at the age of 10? Really? By that age they should be well into doing what they do, not showing week after week to get ready for their real division.

[ynl063w]

I would guess that many of the horses showing in the pre-greens this year only did so because of the Incentive program. They would have likely stayed in the higher divisions if it weren’t for the chance to win some nice prize money by dropping down to the pre-greens.

[3Dogs]

Doublesstable - I don’t think they USED to be boring - outside courses, big fences, fantastic TBs (and I am not dissing WBs just relating to the past) -
Agree that to watch the streams of 1.6 meter classes from Europe or Spruce - it is wowzer

But even when WE have big jumper classes ??? No where NEAR the attendance - and there ARE GPs at these shows

But we haven’t made it inviting - I know it is very different in Europe but dang nabit - the show sponsors depend on the ENTRIES and court the mega rich BECAUSE they can’t offset cost with sponsors and attendance - my simple explanation of a complicated problem - not helped if the uber rich make even those of us who love the sport quit because the playing field is SO un level it makes it too unattractive, costly and well, full of “rule skirters”

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=Ruby G. Weber;7129691]
…
Having imported a few four and five year olds over the years, I can emphatically say - no matter if they have competed in their Motherland at 1.20 - they are no where near ready to negotiate a First Year course in an acceptable hunter fashion.
.[/QUOTE]

Sorry. Isn’t learning to “negotiate a First Year course in an acceptable hunter fashion” what being a First Year Green hunter should be about?

[justathought]

The Pre-Green Incentive program is a great idea BUT its not accomplishing what is intended if it is filled with horses that have already competed at 3’6" - whether here or in Europe.

While jumpers are not the same – jumping a 3’6" course is experience that a Pre-Green horse should not have. Being a TRUE young horse through the levels requires patience, money, talent, etc. But it ought not to include competing with horses that have a lot more experience jumping at shows – whether in jumpers or eventing etc.

Sure, it takes time to convert a jumper or eventer to a hunter way of going – but that training should not come from competing against real pre-green horses that have never jumped a 3’6" course. There are other divisions to get that experience including open hunters, hi - low hunters.

Micro-chipping would be a great way to start to have real oversight

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;7130133]
Doublesstable - I don’t think they USED to be boring - outside courses, big fences, fantastic TBs (and I am not dissing WBs just relating to the past) -
Agree that to watch the streams of 1.6 meter classes from Europe or Spruce - it is wowzer

But even when WE have big jumper classes ??? No where NEAR the attendance - and there ARE GPs at these shows

But we haven’t made it inviting - I know it is very different in Europe but dang nabit - the show sponsors depend on the ENTRIES and court the mega rich BECAUSE they can’t offset cost with sponsors and attendance - my simple explanation of a complicated problem - not helped if the uber rich make even those of us who love the sport quit because the playing field is SO un level it makes it too unattractive, costly and well, full of “rule skirters”[/QUOTE]

Ahhh this is why shows are so expensive. Makes sense to me. I was at a horse show last weekend and the Sat jumpers had a pretty good crowd, however, no one paid to sit there but probably paid 20.00 for a cold sandwich.

[MyssMyst]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7128781]

The whole concept of Pre-green is outdated If there is to be a series of classes for young hunters with a Championship which requires qualifying, then call them what they are: YOUNG HORSES. And the truly young (4 and 5) should show against each other.
Yes, I know, this will not preclude people from putting down a horse’s age incorrectly, but it will help curb some of the cheating, which has 8 year old horses jumping against 4 year olds.[/QUOTE]

And for those of us who do start our horses later? They’re not any less pre-green eligible or new over fences for being older. My six-year-old just got started over fences last month. We plan on bringing him along slowly and carefully, so he could very well be eight before showing in the pre-greens. As a four year old, he showed in a couple training level dressage tests and flat classes at Scottsdale. I showed three flat classes with him at a schooling show this year. He’s a clown, and just now getting the maturity program installed. Leaving age out of the calculation allows owners and trainers to make the best decisions for their horses. I’m well in the minority, but I’m just not a huge fan of starting a younger horse over fences. Also, you have OTTB’s who can come off the track older and need the time to develop. And some horses just don’t have the mental development until they’re older.

Second, it doesn’t solve the issue of trainers misrecording a horse’s age. This is NOT an issue you’re going to solve without a multi-pronged approach.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7130129]
I would guess that many of the horses showing in the pre-greens this year only did so because of the Incentive program. They would have likely stayed in the higher divisions if it weren’t for the chance to win some nice prize money by dropping down to the pre-greens.[/QUOTE]

But I bet the organizers will tell you that this new incentive is to bring horses UP through the ranks, not to have them drop DOWN. Unintended consequences and all…

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=lauriep;7130346]
But I bet the organizers will tell you that this new incentive is to bring horses UP through the ranks, not to have them drop DOWN. Unintended consequences and all…[/QUOTE]

Oh I completely agree with you and I think it’s a shame that it’s happening.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=lauriep;7130346]
But I bet the organizers will tell you that this new incentive is to bring horses UP through the ranks, not to have them drop DOWN. Unintended consequences and all…[/QUOTE]

Could this also be about money for the organizers? They remarked about how many horses were entered - like 118. And I heard the entry for the Pre Green program is pretty pricey and they don’t offer enough opportunities to compete in it.