Really Pre-Green? Loophole exposed!

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7129369]
I had no problem getting on the Dutch Horse Sales link that you posted just now. Do you really think they much care about this? Sold is sold LOL.[/QUOTE]

I am guessing here, but I think the USEF should care. This horse is showing Pre Green and winning which is great, BUT if he did in fact compete in this Dutch Young Jumping Horse competition over 3’6" then he is not a Pre green horse.

However, for all we know they had this horse reinstated as a Pre Green because the USEF can let them do that.

It’s just weird regardless.

[chunky_munky]

When I wrote what you quoted no one had yet come on to state what the qualifying criteria were, INCLUDING YOU, g29. Still would like to see the registration/qualifying criteria posted here than just what someone believes is true. I just want to know what they are. Don’t think you knew either (g29), or you would have posted
Here we go another witch hunt! Good luck with this one! Have fun storming the castle!

[vandenbrink]

https://www.knhs.nl/actueel/nieuws/knhs/kwalificatie-knhskwpn-kampioenschap-jonge-springpaarden/

Here is a link with the information. No witch hunt intended. I think we all know this happens ALL the time. It is the reality of our business. I don’t think it will change anytime soon.

I am fluent in Dutch I thought I would just help with finding the information online.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;7129419]
https://www.knhs.nl/actueel/nieuws/knhs/kwalificatie-knhskwpn-kampioenschap-jonge-springpaarden/

Here is a link with the information. No witch hunt intended. I think we all know this happens ALL the time. It is the reality of our business. I don’t think it will change anytime soon.

I am fluent in Dutch I thought I would just help with finding the information online.[/QUOTE]

I don’t read Dutch but I can see by the heights that nothing is under 3’7 1/4" So unless this horse was reclassified with USEF as a Pre-Green horse; he is not a Pre-Green horse and showing in the Pre-Greens in the US.

Interesting.

The championship for young horses to the VION Cup takes place at the KWPN Horse Days in Ermelo. This championship offers the audience a look at the best four-, five-, six-and seven-year olds in the Netherlands. Moreover, this KNHS / KWPN selection for the World Championship in September in Lanaken. The required match result must be achieved before July 15.

Qualification through sport
Participation in the semifinals of the VION Cup is open to mares, geldings and stallions in the year of the championship reaches the age of four, five, six or seven years and are registered in the foal book, register A, the register B or the KWPN studbook, the KWPN-NA or NRPS and whose registered member of the KWPN. The qualification requirement is that the horses during regular competitions at least the following age-related before July 15, 2013 to have achieved Match result:

Four-year-olds 1.10m +2
Five-year-olds 1.20m +2
Six year olds 1.30m +2
Seven-year-olds 1.35m +2

Six and seven year olds who have taken part in international competitions for young horses (six year olds and seven year olds 1.30m 1.35m) and were least once flawless (results should be sent to the task).

Four-year-olds can save in the regular sports also qualify through Central Inspection. The CK’s for four year olds a stepping stone to the games in August. The CK’s can by a score of at least 21 points for the way of jumping and going between the obstacles an entry for the first final round will be achieved.

For the five-year-old KWPN approved stallions is included in the competition provisions that they participate in the semi-finals and the final. Five-year approved by the KWPN stallions are required to participate.

[Samotis]

That’s the whole issue with USEF. You can change a horses name and just call it a warmblood and there is no way of knowing before it was imported what it showed in.

When a horse is American bred it is a little easier to track with schooling shows etc. but when imported if the horse is over 3 it usually has jumping competitions under his/her belt.

Like anything there are surely exceptions, but it makes it very hard for a true young pre green horse to shine in a class where half of the horses already have shown in bigger classes in Europe.

It is frustrating, but there is no way that USEF has the manpower to police every horse that wants a registration number.

Horse people aren’t know to be the most honest people in the world.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=Samotis;7129449]
That’s the whole issue with USEF. You can change a horses name and just call it a warmblood and there is no way of knowing before it was imported what it showed in.

When a horse is American bred it is a little easier to track with schooling shows etc. but when imported if the horse is over 3 it usually has jumping competitions under his/her belt.

Like anything there are surely exceptions, but it makes it very hard for a true young pre green horse to shine in a class where half of the horses already have shown in bigger classes in Europe.

It is frustrating, but there is no way that USEF has the manpower to police every horse that wants a registration number.

Horse people aren’t know to be the most honest people in the world. [/QUOTE]

I think that is what kills me in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvIMyZAi4_A The announcers talk about this Pre-Green program being so exciting which is the beginning of a young horses development. And there were 118 horses competing for so much money encouraging to bring these young horses along.

I find this topic interesting and I wonder with the internet being what it is now I would hope for some changes and a lot more transparency especially when there is money involved.

[Kestrel]

I would love to see an article clarifying pregreen eligibility for one and all, published in a major equestrian magazine. Either the USEF or USHJA magazines would be good in theory, but since very few bother to read either, it would likely get the most readership in the Chronicle :). Clarifying the rule itself would also be great - anyone have any leverage with the powers that be?

[JustJump]

<<It is frustrating, but there is no way that USEF has the manpower to police every horse that wants a registration number.>>

It doesn’t even take manpower. All it takes is a microchip scanner, and/or a good software program, and some integration/receprocity with other Federations/breed registries.

They aren’t even trying, never have, and won’t unless discussions like this continue, LOUDLY.

Do you think Dr. Betsee and the Wheelers are all out and out cheaters?

No, they are just playing by the bent rules of the game…the way everyone has always played it.

Time to get some clarity about this situation, have an honest discussion about it, and yes, close those loopholes.

[leyla25]

Good luck with that. Those loopholes will never close. It’s a vicious circle and you have to learn to swim with it or else just join this site and moan about it. The same officials that write about respecting rules are proudly standing at the ingate, breaking them; whether it is greens, suitability in hunters or ponies, etc.
Once in a while they will have a public discussion i.e. the drugging issue to calm the masses but that is all.

[Samotis]

Speaking of the actual young horses showing in the pre green class, did anyone see the grey 4 year old?

That horse was beautiful. It has some growing up to do technique wise, but man what a beautiful animal. Those are the ones I really look forward to following.

I live in Arizona and have a 5 year old hunter that will do pre greens in the fall and probably next year if he doesn’t sell. We don’t really have the incentive classes here which is a shame.

I also see a lot of horses in the pre greens that have been there too long, but like we have been saying it just the way the game goes at this point.

Micro chipping wouldn’t work because you know people can remove them and put a new one in. There will always be people breaking the rules. I guess we just have to notice it more and speak up!!!

[Ruby_G_Weber]

Nothing is black and white.
Having imported a few four and five year olds over the years, I can emphatically say - no matter if they have competed in their Motherland at 1.20 - they are no where near ready to negotiate a First Year course in an acceptable hunter fashion. To start with none of them have even seen a “hunter” jump let alone been asked to go like a modern day hunter.
Same goes for young jumpers. I find one always must start them at a considerably lower height than what they were jumping.
Possibly the most equitable solution - and likely the best solution for the imported young horses - is to allow youngsters 6 years old and younger to start their US/USEF hunter career in the Pre Green regardless of what they did in Europe.

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=g29000;7129218]
http://youtu.be/MdZYcOry7ms

Hope I’m wrong but currently I say busted[/QUOTE]

What’s your damage? We’ve all known for years that USEF doesn’t care about what horses do in Europe before being imported. Let it go.

[vandenbrink]

The best way (albeit not perfect) would be to categorize these classes according to age. I’d like to see 5 as the baby green age and go from there. That way no one is starting to pound on them to early and they don’t have to move them along too fast. For those TB enthusiasts, those heights should not overface those OTTB…they have some time…assuming you bought a young one. If a horse does get overfaced, find another division for the year to build confidence, and catch up. If he can’t cope as a 6 year old with the 6 year old height.well…he’s needs to find another division to play in.

You’d have papers to verify age…they do it for the young dressage horses and jumpers, so why not hunters. It will mean some unregistered horses need to find a place to be registered…but most of the horses in those hunter classes already have papers or are eligible for registration with a studbook of some sort.

The breeders and studbooks are HAPPY to help out to make this work:)

[slp]

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;7129707]
The best way (albeit not perfect) would be to categorize these classes according to age. I’d like to see 5 as the baby green age and go from there. That way no one is starting to pound on them to early and they don’t have to move them along too fast. For those TB enthusiasts, those heights should not overface those OTTB…they have some time…assuming you bought a young one. If a horse does get overfaced, find another division for the year to build confidence, and catch up. If he can’t cope as a 6 year old with the 6 year old height.well…he’s needs to find another division to play in.

You’d have papers to verify age…they do it for the young dressage horses and jumpers, so why not hunters. It will mean some unregistered horses need to find a place to be registered…but most of the horses in those hunter classes already have papers or are eligible for registration with a studbook of some sort.

The breeders and studbooks are HAPPY to help out to make this work:):)[/QUOTE]

Dont agree with this at all. My DD has a lovely 8 year old Oldenburg that she has owned since he was 2 weeks old and brought along herself. He has done 2 rated shows in his lifetime since school and work have been her priority for the past 6 years. Next year she will finally have the time and funds to start to do a few rated shows and you can bet that he will legitimately be starting his show career in the pre-greens. An age restriction rule could penalize a lot of horses that got a late start in the show ring, and I know we aren’t the only ones out there that have chosen to wait.

[vandenbrink]

I understand where you are coming from, but we cannot police the green status. Your 8 year old Oldenburg has an unfair advantage over my 4 year old just by being 4 years older and being physically and mentally more mature even if he’s been mostly at home. For all we know you could have brought that horse to every local schooling show and county fair jumping bigger courses for the last 4 years.

You cannot enforce true green status, people lie about the eligibility, so verification of age is at least something that can level the playing field.

It won’t happen, but I can dream.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Ruby G. Weber;7129691]
Nothing is black and white.
Having imported a few four and five year olds over the years, I can emphatically say - no matter if they have competed in their Motherland at 1.20 - they are no where near ready to negotiate a First Year course in an acceptable hunter fashion. To start with none of them have even seen a “hunter” jump let alone been asked to go like a modern day hunter.
Same goes for young jumpers. I find one always must start them at a considerably lower height than what they were jumping.
Possibly the most equitable solution - and likely the best solution for the young horses - is to allow youngsters 6 years old and younger to start their US/USEF hunter career in the Pre Green regardless of what they did in Europe.[/QUOTE]

I’m fine with any horse that’s shown in the jumpers exclusively, no matter what height, to be eligible to show in the pre greens. The disciplines are entirely different…everything from the training, way of going, types of jumps, etc. I don’t think there should be an age restriction, either. Not every horse is started early, for a whole host of reasons, as other posters have mentioned here.

[Tackpud]

Better yet how about creating American-bred pre-green and imported pre-green divisions? No matter what age they just compete in the division where their breeding puts them.

[g29000]

I don’t disagree but how quickly we seem to forget about the performance hunters division. Pre green 1st yr 2nd yr were created for actual horse trainers so we could see young horses brought along. If you want to bring one over that has jumped you show in the performance hunters. There’s not as much prestige in the performance hunters but that’s where you belong. All they are doing is making it near impossible for our breeders here to sell young prospects.

"So I guess all U.S jumpers showing 1.20+ are eligible pre green as long as they haven’t done any hunter classes. That’s such a lame excuse and the rules apply even if your horse is from Europe,Canada or any other country.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;7129707]
For those TB enthusiasts, those heights should not overface those OTTB…they have some time…assuming you bought a young one. [/QUOTE]
Why would you assume that? They don’t all come off the track at the same age. Some race longer than others.

@vandenbrink;7129733

For all we know you could have brought that horse to every local schooling show and county fair jumping bigger courses for the last 4 years.

Which would be completely within the current USEF rules. Horses don’t all have the same background and experience, just as horses don’t all come off the track at the same age.

[Go_Fish]

@g29000;7129806

There’s not as much prestige in the performance hunters but that’s where you belong. All they are doing is making it near impossible for our breeders here to sell young prospects.

I don’t know if I’d agree with that, especially if entry numbers have anything to say about it. In my neck of the woods, the performance hunters entries vastly outnumber the pre green entries.

It’s been done to death on this board, but perhaps if U.S breeders would get their young prospects going before they hang a huge price tag on them, they’d have an easier time selling. When I was shopping several years ago for a young, unstarted prospect, I was flabbergasted by the price tag on 3-year-old prospects that were standing around in a field. Just because you have X number of dollars invested, doesn’t mean that the market will bear that price. I digress, but just my personal experience.