Rebels Invited to change the NHJC By-laws

[Snowbird]

I have just gone over the next section of the By-Laws and put in the corrections. Where are our legal minded?

This is a tedious job. But, so far up to page 4, I have posted the proposed changes. Anyone who disagrees please let me know what you would change.

[B]In red are my proposed changes, strikethrough is what they either proposed or have that I think should be deleted.

black bold italics is what they proposed but has not yet been approved by the AHSA.[/B]

So let me know if it’s a go or a change
Proposed Revisions of the NHJC By-Laws

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Snowbird]

I have just gone over the next section of the By-Laws and put in the corrections. Where are our legal minded?

This is a tedious job. But, so far up to page 4, I have posted the proposed changes. Anyone who disagrees please let me know what you would change.

[B]In red are my proposed changes, strikethrough is what they either proposed or have that I think should be deleted.

black bold italics is what they proposed but has not yet been approved by the AHSA.[/B]

So let me know if it’s a go or a change
Proposed Revisions of the NHJC By-Laws

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Snowbird]

JCH if you look at the By-Laws the parts in black italics are what were the proposals from the NHJC that have not yet been approved I edited them just in case they actually do get passed. As you can see that whole section is what they want to change to bring in non-AHSA members. I would guess for the money they would pay in membership directly to the NHJC. Although I’m not personally opposed to that I am opposed to them having not only equal but better opportunities than those of us who pay the bills.

I am very opposed to the idea that the associations could affiliate with the NHJC and not the AHSA and then get some sort of certificate and opportunity to pretend to be recognized to compete against the AHSA recognized shows.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-18-2000).]

[Snowbird]

Just a little reminder! These are the changes that give us the right to know and a vote that I’m working on!

[Snowbird]

I wondered if anyone has any thoughts on how else we can persuade the NHJC that we need the right to know what’s going on?

[pwynnnorman]

I think it is worth noting, too, that changes HAVE occurred, so there are reasons to carry on (i.e. evidence that it is possible to bring about–or simply recognize change–if only is small ways). I just got the NHJC newsletter, and it is looking much, much better in terms of function vs. economy. Makes a lot more sense now.

Now if only the idea of paying yet another $30 for that special-or-something “NHJC membership” made more sense…Tell the truth, when I got the newsletter, I was tempted to send them $30 but just show my support for their attempts–I still may. I feel after all the raving and ranting that some other response might be worthwhile when change actually does take place.

[jch]

You have spent a lot of time on this! What you added looks pretty logical and I hope that it will get some attention. Just curious, why do you think that life members should not be considered for committee appointment? Seems these might be people who have a life time commitment.

[pwynnnorman]

Snowbird, I haven’t a clue as to why you have suddenly become so upset. I’m not attacking you. I am simply making suggestions. You can take them or leave them as you see fit–the situation is no different now than it was four months ago, which is why I am flabbergasted that you should get so upset.

However, as I’ve said before, this is not a personal thing for me. It is an interesting exercise. Thus I will not take your comments any more personally than I take anyone else’s–although I am saddened by the tone you have adopted.

[Snowbird]

Just wanted to remind you! These revisions are how it can happen and what the ad and the buttons are selling. So let’s have your feedback on progress so far.

[Snowbird]

Well we are getting some response, The AHSA BB is to be up and running tomorrow. The preamble looks interesting. Apparently we get to ask questions and they will try to answer.
Not Bad!

[Snowbird]

I wonder if you’re talking about the same newsletter I received weeks ago, or if you have a new one? The 2nd one which I received is “Summer 2000 Volume III Issue 8”.

Yes! they did certainly improve it with a more economical format. But, for most of us we are already members since every member of the AHSA who has checked off the hunter/jumper discipline box is a paid up member of both the AHSA and the NHJC.

What disturbs me and several others who have been working on the Revisions is that there are supposed to be four issues, and this is only the 2nd. There is no news from the zones except the election in spite of the fact that every zone is supposed to send in a report for their meetings and their finances.

We are also concerned about the proposed changes whereby the non-AHSA members who sign up have more privileges and benefits than those of us who contribute to their $500,000 annual budget.

[pwynnnorman]

Snowbird, I read the proposed changes fairly carefully and two things occurred to me: #1, I may have missed it, but while I see where the secretary would be required to collect the financial information (and other information), I don’t see where the secretary would be required to publish it. #2, some of the proposed changes are complicated and hard-to-follow AND there is a problem with having you working on them all by your lonesome AND getting not much input from others. I think an item-by-item review via a teleconference or something like that would be helpful, don’t you? There is just so much there.

Actually, AND I WANT TO HOLLER ABOUT THIS, such a virtual or real meeting SHOULD be promoted by NHJC!!! For example, the way I think jch may have misinterpreted your strikethrough of the Life Member rights in terms of sitting on committees. This stuff needs to be explained more fully by its originators sometimes. Oftentimes, you can’t write the “intent” of a statement into the By-Laws, so in order to get support for the statement, you need to be able to explain what its intent is.

But the only explaning that goes on, it seems, is between those on the inside already. They make no effort whatsoever to explain anything to (much less seek feedback from) the rank-and-file members.

The By-Laws are a VITALLY important issue. People aren’t following your lead on this Snowbird, and I’m wondering if it is because they don’t realize that the Right to Know and the Right to Vote are being inserted INTO the By-Laws by your proposal. Nor do I think people caught the details about how the By-Laws can be changed. I’m not sure I understand that myself.

Can you repeat that information? You have said that the way to bring about the changes we seek is by revising NHJC’s By-Laws. You said that because you looked carefully at the procedures available and something about those procedures showed you that this way the way. We need to hear that again. What was it? What will happen with the proposal? It isn’t like a rule change proposal, right? It is handled differently, right? And that’s why the By-Laws may be the most effective way to bring about change, right?

Remind us again of those details, OK?

[Snowbird]

You say you don’t understand, so let me clarify in what way I felt this was an uninvited personal attack. If you really don’t understand I will explain.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I didn’t mean to imply that you are getting no support, Snowbird, but there is the perception problem again and it is something we continue to struggle with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By making the statement you imply that I am getting no support and that somehow I have a problem with the way I am perceived. A negative statement in the above context reinforces the negative which might otherwise not exist, I do take that very personally.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I’m also not saying “carry on,” but I AM saying it seems like you are out in the woods alone on this one and that’s not a good thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then I gather what you really mean is you don’t think I should “carry on” and that I should quit because I am all alone in my views and as you say this is not a good thing.

That is based on your assumption that what you say is true. I am far from alone in my support of these changes therefore it is a good thing and YES! I am not going to stop. I am not sure what criteria you used to make your measurement of my situation.

But, just for the sake of discussion who asked for your opinion of my life, my purposes or the way I project myself. And, if you were doing this in the friendly way you tried to use to disguise your criticism of me personally, you would do that privately and not publicly if you still were a friend.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It may simply because this is a busy time for people right now (the BB is kinda slow–I wish I didn’t have the time to be on it right now, alas, but my knee is so screwed up I can’t ride and I haven’t been able to work, much less prepare and show, anything for over three months now).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The BB is not slow as you well know that is a very lame excuse and not valid and very patronizing. I am sorry that you are injured and can’t ride, that’s hardly an excuse to take it out on me. Does it make you feel better if you can see someone else hurt?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyway, I am getting emails about the perception part, Snowbird. That’s why I’m saying this.[/quote}
I don’t suppose it is possible that the people who have said such things just wanted to motivate you do exactly this in the hope that this might stop the process. That’s what I assumed when people emailed me negative things about your presentation on this public forum of your views.

[quote]Sometimes, one makes the effort NOT because it will achieve something, but rather
because of the impression it makes, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless, you are talking about yourself, I certainly have never needed to try and impress anyone. Nor would I do anything for such a shallow reason.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As long as its just one or two people out there, militant crazies of not, it carries little weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And, it is also true that when people have no evidence to refute an argument they resort to name calling. The incident you quote was from just such a person.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is tiring trying to get people to
stand up and be counted, and I agree with you that it isn’t likely to ever succeed given
this particular crowd,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, that reference is out of context, since it referred to an email between you and I regarding the ad and nothing more. I think it is a very difficult thing because we would need to raise a couple of thousand dollars and I thought that was unlikely. I do not accept your derogatory view of “this particular crowd.”

Perhaps for you it is tiring but for me it is stimulating and rewarding. I take pleasure in the work that I do to help people to realize what is…and what can be fixed. What is tiring is when people sit around whineing and not attempting to fix the problem or screw things up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but that doesn’t mean we should stop trying. Why don’t you at least ask those who email you privately if you can copy snippets here and there from their emails–anonymously, of course–and post them here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be your perception of how to handle these things but everyone who emails me is quite capable and intelligent enough to post what they like on any BB. I don’t remember asking your opinion about how to handle my email. And, if any of them wanted to be quoted they would do so under their own name.
Just because you think this is the right way does not make it so!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I’m saying you need to find ways to indicate that support IS out there–otherwise, I fear, disbelief from the doubters may sabotage your efforts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your implication that there is no support is yours and that’s all. It may be how you feel, and for that I am sorry. There is little doubt that the doubters are already opposed to our program and plans here on the BB and intend to do what they can to ruin the plan. Apparently, they have already convinced you. Yes! they may stop the progress of the plans but it’s better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don’t give up on the campaigning, no matter how discouraging it seems. Campaigns take time to have an effect and they have NO effect if they aren’t visible!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Another implied assumption on your part it doesn’t seem at all discouraging, actually we are doing better than I expected. I am really pleased with the responses on all the BBs and through my mail and email and looking at the AHSA Web Site I think we have already accomplished more than I expected in a shorter time.

You have not been around long enough to know that having the schedule for the convention four months ahead is a revelation. That to have any kind of copy of all the proposed rules changes is a great gift that we never had, and to have them 4 months ahead of the convention is almost a miracle. Just the fact that our 10 changes made the list and were not buried is remarkable.

So I have a lot of confidence that we can revise the By-Laws, one way or another it will happen. We can compromise some issues but I do believe there is a concession that we have the right to know not that we have the right to vote yet.
If you think that I even considered making any change in the direction I have planned, then you don’t know me at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, as I’ve said before, this is not a personal thing for me. It is an interesting exercise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that is the difference between us, to me this is not an exercise at honing my skills. And, it is very personal and close to my heart because I believe that it needs to be done and that it can be done and with help it will be done.

To me this is a mission to try and make something wonderful for the children survive until they grow up. A democratically run association on which they can depend.

I certainly wish that if you wanted to have this discussion you would have been considerate enough to do it privately.

[Doubleeez]

Snowbird,
When you get to the election process for the zone committees, something should be inserted about individual term limits for members serving on the Board of Governors.
Right now, they can serve forever and what is happening is that the Chair and vice chair of each zone are just trading places after three years and continuing to serve on the Board of Governors.
Let’s make it a little more democratic.

[Snowbird]

Well I got to sign on the new AHSA BB. It’s not easy but you can do it. They send the password and it kept spitting back my message because it was case sensitive and I kept having the wrong letters the wrong way.

I don’t think you can be anonymous there. I feel like I just got security pass for the Pentagon.

That said it should be very interesting. I put three questions up and I should be able to get answers there. Now that is DIFFERENT isn’t it!

[pwynnnorman]

Yes, the Zone News definitely MUST be a requirement. There MUST be a way to force Zones to elect/retain people based on their ability and willingness to serve! (I should have capitalized that word: SERVE. I think therein lies the root of the problem: serving the membership is NOT what is on the minds of many who are on the Zone committees. That is not their attitude at all and what is needed is more people who DO have that kind of attitude, the “giving back to the sport” attitude, that is, vs. the “what’s in it for me” attitude.)

[This message has been edited by pwynnnorman (edited 10-08-2000).]

[Snowbird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>#1, I may have missed it, but while I see where the secretary would be required to
collect the financial information (and other information), I don’t see where the secretary
would be required to publish it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The President of the NHJC is responsible to see that it gets done if you check the descriptions under “Officers” the secretary of the zone is responsible for getting the information to the NHJC. That’s a new position they don’t have right now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>#2, some of the proposed changes are complicated and
hard-to-follow AND there is a problem with having you working on them all by your
lonesome AND getting not much input from others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had a lot of input from tons of people with valuable ideas. I’ve gotten them by mail, by phone and here on the BB. As a matter of fact one change I will make is to eliminate the show secretaries and replace them with a Veterinarian and a Licensed Official instead, since secretaries are too closely related to show management. That was an email suggestion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think an item-by-item review via a
teleconference or something like that would be helpful, don’t you? There is just so much
there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I don’t agree because everyone has such a dificult schedule and the time frame is so different in all the parts of the country, I don’t think it would be better at all. I think putting the ideas out here, and we have three months to work it all out is a great idea. I find most people have really constructive ideas and reasoning when they deal one to one. Too many would be intimidated by a large confusing teleconference.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Actually, AND I WANT TO HOLLER ABOUT THIS, such a virtual or real meeting SHOULD be promoted by NHJC!!! For example, the way I think jch may have misinterpreted your
strikethrough of the Life Member rights in terms of sitting on committees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure there are misunderstandings that need to clarified and just like your questions we can all express an opinion when we have the few minutes that it takes. I think that the misunderstand for JCH is just the difference between and AHSA Life member and the proposed Life member of the NHJC that isn’t a member of AHSA. I think we all agree that non-AHSA members shouldn’t be on committees.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This stuff needs
to be explained more fully by its originators sometimes. Oftentimes, you can’t write the
“intent” of a statement into the By-Laws, so in order to get support for the statement,
you need to be able to explain what its intent is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t agree because I see this as a work in progress. Anyone can chime in and we can dialog any issue until we come to a consensus. This way there is plenty of time to think about it and develop an opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But the only explaning that goes on, it seems, is between those on the inside already.
They make no effort whatsoever to explain anything to (much less seek feedback from)
the rank-and-file members.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s the whole point of this exercise to get as much opinion and clarification as possible from everyone. No one is so knowledgeable as to have the final word on everything.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The By-Laws are a VITALLY important issue. People aren’t following your lead on this
Snowbird, and I’m wondering if it is because they don’t realize that the Right to Know and
the Right to Vote are being inserted INTO the By-Laws by your proposal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t agree,with you I think they are! I’ve had so much feed back from people who might be too shy or private but have wonderful ideas and logic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Nor do I think
people caught the details about how the By-Laws can be changed. I’m not sure I
understand that myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The reason is that’s in the last Article and we aren’t there yet. I’m taking it step by step as the By-Laws are written puttting it up in sections so it’s easier to follow. There is a whole other page on election procedures that I haven’t worked on. The proposed changes are the result of what we have been discussing they’re not carved in stone yet and that’s why they’re out here.

Essentially, when we get there the only requirement to propose a change to the By-Laws is that the entire Board of governors get a copy each before a scheduled meeting. We can do that! Of course getting them to vote on it, or approve it is another story. My guess is that they will refuse and then we will have to take the proposals to the AHSA Board which has final oversight of all NHJC activites. That can be done at the convention

[Snowbird]

I have added four more sections to the rule change proposals. This is a work in progress and if there is something you think should be changed or modified please let me know.

The sections in blue are those proposed by the NHJC which may not yet be approved by the AHSA. The sections in red are our proposals. The strike-outs indicate what we feel should be deleted.

Essentially so far all the changes simply indicate changes to the definitions for our better representation on the zone committees and our need for the “Right to Know”.
Proposed Changes for the NHJC By-Laws

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Snowbird]

Thanks Doubleeez,
That’s a really good point and I appreciate the help. I need everyone’s eyes and thoughts so as not to miss an important point like that one.

[pwynnnorman]

I’m glad you can’t be anonymous. It will be interesting to see how much traffic they get.