[QUOTE=Pablitospebbles;5558257]
Yeah- I was going off the wrong email- I just got them in and looking at their papers saw my mistake… duh. Its been a long week… anyways the CORRECT pedigree is (Ratibor/Flamingo/ Liguster) and (Rantares/ Flamingo/ Liguster)… ok so anyways, Tim good point- that is why I was looking at Limoncello II for the Rantares mare as she is dressage type but he still has good jumping genes. And for the Ratibor mare- she is more jumper type- I was thinking Quinar for her. Any idea on the temperament of Limoncello’s? She could use some quietness- I want the baby ammy friendly. Thanks and sorry for my hairbrainess…[/QUOTE]
Understand about refining and modern being different. 22 yrs ago is probably the key here. As I said, I’m not seeing lighter bodies in many instances and it was somewhat surprising- hence the question. They are however, good moving with good minds.
No problems, I do that stuff all the time.
I can’t say whether or not Limoncello II is good for your mare, I can only say I don’t think he will refine your mare. His temperment should be fine. Limoncello II’s foals do have good type and movement scores.
Does anyone have suggestions for holsteiner stallions (or even a holsteiner stallion that is dutch approved) to modernize a mare?
I have a F1 xx cross that is a tank but I do not think I need anymore “blood” so I think I need to “modernize” i.e. add leg length (??) along with jump. I think she phenotype wise strongly looks like a very femine version of her paternal grandfather Burrggaraf (landgraf). She has a big trot and is forward temperment wise. Fresh woudl be best. TIA
Thanks Tim. Do you have any personal favorites? or do you just go by what the mare needs? What Limoncello foals do you know of? I cant find any. I know Linaro has great movers & temperament- but does he add a good jump? I know Quinars can JUMP!
[QUOTE=omare;5559569]
Does anyone have suggestions for holsteiner stallions (or even a holsteiner stallion that is dutch approved) to modernize a mare?
I have a F1 xx cross that is a tank but I do not think I need anymore “blood” so I think I need to “modernize” i.e. add leg length (??) along with jump. I think she phenotype wise strongly looks like a very femine version of her paternal grandfather Burrggaraf (landgraf). She has a big trot and is forward temperment wise. Fresh woudl be best. TIA[/QUOTE]
I obviously don’t know a great deal lol! But you might want to check out Cascani and Contiano- they seem to have that modern thing going
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5558292]
Refining and modern are considered different attributes. He was very modern for his time, but that was 22 years ago. He does refine and some of those attributes will also modernize.
Tim[/QUOTE]
For the sake of clarification…would you speak to the difference between refining and modern attributes? Is there a written, widely accepted definition of each…or does it end up being a bit different in the mind’s eye of the beholder?
Certainly it is continually evolving, as you stated above…where do you see it going next?
TIA
I don’t think there is a widely accepted definition. I find for myself it is best to not expand on the definitions too much, keep it simple. IMHO, Refining is lightening of bone and body and head. This is usually accomplished by adding blood, so when you refine, you add blood. Modernizing can come from a non-blooded stallion. This tends to be slighly shorter backs, smaller frames and longer legs. Old type tends to be heavier, longer bodies with shorter legs. Some stallions do both. You can generally look to your younger stallions for modernizing, Cormint, Acodetto, Diarado, Casall la Silla, Cassiano, Casiro, Quinar I etc. These stallions are not necessarily refining or blooded(exception Quinar). Some exceptions to the young stallions are Coriano, Limbus, and Lavall I. Refining stallions are like Larimar, Quinar, Clearway, Linaro, Lord, Lavaletto, Cardento, and Lavall I. These stallions bring blood, and lighten with out(exceptions apply) reducing the overall ground coverage.
So my Calando I mare is 16.3, always makes bigger, and sometimes too big. I need more modern, becuase she can’t handle anymore blood, and doesn’t need refinement. She is elegent, femanine with long legs. She has a very long back, and can breed with a heavy body. So I breed her to today’s young stallions to get modern, without adding blood.
I think tomorrow’s horses will be smaller, shorter and quicker. I think the ring is supporting this type of horse.
I am focused on Larimar right now, because of some focus by some of the best breeders. He is full of blood, yet has great type and is a GP jumper. Furthermore, ones I have seen move well.
Linaro actually takes the jump away. this is okay if it is for producing a broodmare, but I think you take a risk if you still need jump. He is a great stallion, and serves a wonderful role, but jumpers is not his thing.
I have seen a couple, one at the stallion approval, and one foal. He wasn’t used that much because his full Brother Lasino was putting horses in the Olympics. He is also by a dressage stallion, and this is hard to swallow. I believe, like his sire he will breed modern, but it isn’t based on a lot of information. He didn’t jump at the top, and kind of maxed out at 1.4m. So until we see his adults, we won’t know if they jump. His Dam is amazing, and we can’t forget that. His breeding index for foals is very high, but I don’t put much stock on that.
I always choose what is best for the mare. If the mare needs refinement more then anything I find the best refinement stallion that goes well with my mare. If something else is more important then refinement, I might look elsewhere. I hope that helps.
Thank you so much for the discussion on Linaro. I have seen some horses by him that I would call “tanks”. However I think I can see how he refines them but does not modernize them, which is what I want to do. The ones that I have run across are much “bigger” than I want (I want a short back, long legs, not tall).
[QUOTE=Pablitospebbles;5560738]
tell me more! who did you breed them to?[/QUOTE]
Is the Liguster mare in your pedigree Liane ?
She was bred to several stallions. Caracas , Lord Capitol , Cicera’s Icewater etc.
Here is a Cicera’s Icewater gelding from her. This was his first time in the jumping chute. He is very indicative of what she made. Athletic , attractive, scopey with lots of elasticity up thru the topline.
RyTimMick, can you comment on Willemoes as a refining stallion? The Danish registry defines him as refining, yet to look at him, his phenotype doesn’t indicate that he would refine.
[QUOTE=Pablitospebbles;5561716]
yes its Liane.[/QUOTE]
Super motherline. Liane was a famous mare in Holstein. Breed the best stallions you can back on your mares. Livello is a good choice but I think he is sold out.
I do not have enough information on Willemoes to say one way or another. After Cantus, he has 3 half bloods in a row, but his overall blood % is low at 41%. So if I had to make a guess, more modernizing then refining.
