Refusals

[centaursam]

A horse that I currently ride has been my main horse for several months now. When we first started together he had a lot of issues we had to work through. He was plagued with constant and sometimes aggressive spooks at the most random things (see another thread I started about that) and he would refuse all jumps, even a pole 6 inches off the ground. After much work I eventually got him over jumps but then had to deal with him launching over them like they were a meter high (one which left me with a really bad injury). I was ready to throw in the towel many times but decided to stick with him.

Fast forward to now and we’ve had great progress. His spooks are few and far between and very mild when they do happen. I’m now jumping him nearly 3 feet and he no longer launches over jumps. Something that still comes up, unfortunately, is refusals. While not nearly as frequently as before, they do happen. In an arena of 5 jumps, for example, he’ll refuse maybe 1 or 2 of the jumps, but only once. If I double back and attempt the jump again, he’ll go over it with no problem and we’re fine for the rest of the lesson.

His refusals come in three flavors:

1. Dirty stops
2. Stop, spin, run in other direction
3. Deflating a few strides before the jump and drifting to one side (this one is more my fault than his and I’m working on eliminating this one)

I’d like to start showing with him but I don’t feel comfortable knowing he’s going to refuse a jump. It’s been a long journey with this horse and he’s made me a better horseman and I’m happy that I stuck with him, but I’m not sure how to tackle this issue or if it’s just something that I have to accept about him.

Any advice, tips, tricks, etc. is appreciated as always.

[Redlei44]

It sounds like you are making progress with a difficult horse. What does your trainer say? I assume this is a lesson horse situation?

[centaursam]

@Redlei44

It sounds like you are making progress with a difficult horse. What does your trainer say? I assume this is a lesson horse situation?

This is a lesson horse. My trainer says I need to be more aggressive. Not necessarily physically, but mentally and energetically, with more intent and no hesitation as I approach a jump.

[supershorty628]

Any chance you have a video, OP? Easier to offer suggestions when we can see what happens before/during/after.

[Redlei44]

@centaursam

This is a lesson horse. My trainer says I need to be more aggressive. Not necessarily physically, but mentally and energetically, with more intent and no hesitation as I approach a jump.

Do other people ride this horse? What happens with them?

It does still sound like you’re making progress, and you haven’t indicated that you’re feeling overfaced or intimidated. So perhaps this is just a waystation on your journey. However, I will say that a dedicated stopper is not really a good lesson horse. There are certainly skills associated with riding one, but there are a lot of bad habits (physical and mental) that a rider can practice if they only ride a bad stopper. Not to mention the increased risk of an accident that can damage riders’ body or confidence.

[IPEsq]

My first horse (not my first mount over jumps since I started with a pony) was a stopper. Thankfully not much at home, and mostly when anxiety was taking over like an indoor show, and he was never a stop and spin type. One that stops this much including at home over baby cavaletti is frankly not appropriate for a lesson horse…It’s one thing if you buy the horse and then discover this problem and you have to deal with it. It’s another to intentionally put a student on a horse that will do this. Not that all lesson horses have to be total saints. I mean, if the rider really screws up at the jump, I won’t blame a horse for stopping rather than crashing and yes while you are learning sometimes you need a horse that will “tell on you” like that. But routinely dirty stopping? No. This makes me think there is something wrong with this horse that isn’t you. He’s got pain somewhere, for example.

Anyway, one thing that helped me tremendously was to think in terms of positive actions. So, rather than thinking “don’t stop” (a negative) either consciously, subconsciously, or with your body language, force yourself to think “GO” or other action word. This will help you project the intention and confidence that this horse needs and will translate into your body language. If your scenario #3 happens, you can also think about making a chute between your hands with a little wider rein and think about pushing the horse through the chute.

Are there any other horses you can ride as well? It is hard to project confidence to the horse if you don’t know what a confident ride really feels like because you never get to practice it on a horse that doesn’t make you want to hesitate. My pony had been a point and kick type and while he could do some naughty things from time to time, stopping wasn’t one of them. But I did have to work to ride forward. That experience helped me deal with the more forward yet spooky/backed off stopper. And I did get some benefit from being able to practice on him at home as well without stopping. I really would not put up with stopping all the time every day at home if you have any choice to avoid this. While learning how to deal with it is a good skill to have, it is likely to teach you a lot of bad habits as well.

[gottagrey]

are you paying to ride this horse? Sounds like a lot of work for a lesson horse. I admire your tenancity, I’m not sure I would.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

I’m joining those who question whether this is a suitable lesson horse. Riders who are still learning how to ride a course have so much to think about; if they have to devote a large amount of mental effort to worrying about whether the horse will jump and/or how to avoid falling off, it will tend to hinder their ability to focus on things like pace, strides, the best route, their position etc.

I question whether this horse is cut out to be a jumper. Certainly if he is so suspicious of jumps at home, it will only get worse at shows.

All of that said, it sounds like you have progressed quickly and impressively in your riding. You must have quite a bit of natural talent!

[Halternatively]

I would agree with the advice given. In my experience, a horse that stops at home will absolutely stop at shows when nerves come into play. This is NOT a horse to learn to show on. This is also not likely a horse that you, a relatively new rider, can fix, and like others have said, you should not be asked to.

You should be learning on a safe and sane horse that you can trust to get you around the course so you can focus on developing your skills. More than anything, you should be enjoying your lessons and time spent riding, not anticipating spooks and stops.

[centaursam]

@supershorty628

Any chance you have a video, OP? Easier to offer suggestions when we can see what happens before/during/after.

Surprisingly, here is the only video I have of me riding him that I only got last week! Need to get more for sure:

https://youtu.be/26FRbyZB5NM

@Redlei44 My trainer and I are really the only one’s to jump him, at least recently. He doesn’t refuse jumps with her nearly as much, but occasionally he’ll pull one off. Other riders who jumped him in the past had a similar experience but no one has really ridden him for as long as I have. I believe one other person rides him during the week, just flatwork, and they haven’t been riding all that long if memory serves me.

To be honest, between the past spooks, launches, and refusals, I used to DREAD riding this horse and almost gave up. For some reason I stuck with him and worked through many issues with just this one still left and now a days I really do like him. He’s forced me to work on so many aspects of my riding beyond jumping and I’m very comfortable when I ride him. I’m not intimidated by him or feel that I’m over-faced. As you have said, I’m not sure if this is just a waystation on my journey with this horse or if it’s simply time to move on.

@IPEsq I’ll give your mental tricks a try. I’m trying to identify how much of this is perhaps my energy translating to him.

There is another horse I can ride but he is the exact opposite of this one. He’s great at jumps and will go over anything you point him at but the way he rides is vastly different than any other horse I’ve been on and I find him to be very uncomfortable (started a separate thread on him a while back :lol:)

@Horsegirl’s Mom He’s not an easy horse to ride overall as he’s very heavy on the forehand and not exactly forward. He requires constant collection and proper posture and has completely humbled me in terms of seeing distances (he’s yet to refuse a jump due to an incorrect distance so I ruled that out). So despite the fact that there is the chance of refusal occupying my mind, he does require you to be cognizant of many things you mentioned. But as you and others have said, perhaps not the greatest horse for jumping and refusals shouldn’t be on my mind in general.

[Foitin]

Agree with the comments about suitability. Another question: OP, are you having fun? A challenge is good, but need not be such an onerous one in the case of a hobby or sport. I myself only learned how to ride when I finally got a horse I could get in a good canter. It was then that I learned to find the jumps, improve my position over the jumps, figured out how to set a horse up for a lead change, and to put a course together. Even a really nice horse that is behind your leg can be a challenge to jump.

[gertie06]

Life is too short to voluntarily ride a stopper. I did it for years as a junior because of emotional attachment, but it messed with my mind badly. To this day, I still have a little what-if-he-stops PTSD every time I canter to a fence. Don’t repeat my mistake. As others have said, a rider who is learning to jump and show should be mounted on something relatively trustworthy.

[Always_WIP]

@gertie06

Life is too short to voluntarily ride a stopper. I did it for years as a junior because of emotional attachment, but it messed with my mind badly. To this day, I still have a little what-if-he-stops PTSD every time I canter to a fence. Don’t repeat my mistake. As others have said, a rider who is learning to jump and show should be mounted on something relatively trustworthy.

100% this. You learn a ton of bad habits by riding a habitual stopper. Also I’ve found that any normal things that can occasionally happen (falls) are completely magnified when riding a stopper. Personally, I had a much harder time “getting over” my fall mentally when I was riding a stopper I couldn’t trust to get me to the fence.

There’s a fine line between “this horse needs the proper support to get over the fence” and “this is horse is a habitual, possibly dirty stopper”. The first you can learn a lot from, provided your skills are at a level appropriate for that horse. However, you could not pay me enough to ride the second type. I did that as a kid, never again. I still have issues trusting new horses, although I have gotten better.

And of course sometimes type 1 becomes type 2 - it’s a delicate line that whomever is running the program should be careful to prevent.

My personal line is frequency and type of stop. Did we totally lack impulsion, I am super tired and didn’t help the horse? Then in my opinion the horse is right to stop. I also event which colors the perspective a bit - you want horses to make that decision when solid obstacles are involved as it’s a matter of safety. However, this happening once in a lesson every three months is one thing. But if it happens every lesson, or multiple times every lesson then I would expect the trainer to chime in on how I can prevent them. If they are not giving sufficient feedback on how to prevent them that’s a major issue. If it’s still happening, then it’s time to find a new horse to ride or a new trainer.

And if the stop is dirty hopefully I’m not riding that horse in the first place. Life is too short to ride dirty stoppers.

[atl_hunter]

@centaursam

This is a lesson horse. My trainer says I need to be more aggressive. Not necessarily physically, but mentally and energetically, with more intent and no hesitation as I approach a jump.

It sounds like you need to commit to the jump, and that you are doing something that is being interpreted by this horse to be a hesitation.

Things to do as you approach the jump:

• Sit up
• Sit back/stay back
• Maintain connection
• Keep your leg on - doesn't have to be a huge squeeze unless you need it - but keep that contact
• Have enough impulsion and let your horse move forward
• Look at the jump, then look up to where you are going - make sure you are looking up, this will ensure you are sitting tall
• Be decisive
• Keep your hands up and in front of you
• Visualize getting to the other side of that jump - tell yourself "I am getting over this jump"
• Establish your canter long before you turn to the jump, and maintain that pace and rhythm through the turn and on to the jump - maintain, maintain, maintain
• Get organized. Plan your track before going to the jump so you can be decisive.

Things not to do:

• Don't exhale as you approach the jump - this will immediately make just about any horse slow down and some will stop (I do this to relax myself since I tend to be anxious, and 9 times out of ten the horse I'm riding will lose its rhythm. This doesn't mean to hold your breath - it means don't make a big exhale at the jump
• Dont lean at the jump
• Don't lose the connection with your horse
• Don't obsess over the possibility of the horse stopping - if you think it, you will make it happen
• Don't lose focus
• Don't fail to make a decision - make a decision. Even if you see a chip or a long and it's too late to fix it, COMMIT to it. Tell that horse that was your plan all along - do not leave your horse hanging to make that decision for you.
• Don't lose momentum, but don't gallop up uncontrollably
• Don't look down
• Don't stare down the jump
• Don't go to the jump with longer, looser reins - stoppers need to stay even more connected than other horses. They need to know you are there - they are waiting for you to tell them what to do.

I just started a mare who will occasionally stop. She does this when I screw up, not because she's conniving and trying to get out of the job. She's actually quite honest but has a shorter stride that I'm still getting used to, and sometimes I just go to the jump, don't see anything, and just don't do anything. When that happens, she stops. If I throw my body at the jump because I saw a distance and she thought it was too long to be safe, she will stop. It's not every lesson, and it's not dirty. But I'm learning quickly to sit back, stay in contact with her, and keep going forward. Your horse is trying to tell you something. I would ask the trainer for more specific details on what it means to not hesitate. What does that mean? What does more intent mean to your trainer? What is your body's reaction to your mental state as you approach the jump - are you rolling your shoulders with your indecision? Worth asking!

I would also not take this horse to a show. If it’s stopping at home, it will likely happen at the show tenfold.

Best of luck, and congrats with the progress you’ve made so far. If you’re jumping 3’, then this isn’t’ a typical lesson situation. You should be proud of your progress, but definitely be safe. And maybe consider an air jacket for this one. I rode with one when I was stuck in a lease with a stopper and it saved me a hospital visit.

[showy]

Refuse to ride this horse.

Seriously. A dirty stopper who spins, bucks, and aggressively spooks? No thanks, no matter what level you ride at.

[pony4me]

I would ask to see your trainer, or some other very good rider take this horse around a course of jumps. Lesson horses for less experienced riders should be absolute saints and should help you learn. An experienced rider helps an inexperienced horse learn. If I were running a lesson program with this horse I would be very careful about who rides him. He may not be suitable for some students.

[centaursam]

@supershorty628 Here is us over some lower jumps, sans refusal:

https://youtu.be/26FRbyZB5NM

@Redlei44 My trainer and I are really the only one’s to jump him, at least recently. He doesn’t refuse jumps with her nearly as much, but occasionally he’ll pull one off. Other riders who jumped him in the past had a similar experience but no one has really ridden him for as long as I have. I believe one other person rides him during the week, just flatwork.

To be honest, between the past spooks, launches, and refusals, I used to DREAD riding this horse and almost gave up. For some reason I stuck with him and worked through many issues with this one still left and now a days I really do like him. He’s forced me to work on so many aspects of my riding beyond jumping and I’m very comfortable when I ride him. As you have said, I’m not sure if this is just a waystation on my journey with this horse or if it’s simply time to move on.

@IPEsq I’ll give your mental tricks a try. I’m trying to identify how much of this is perhaps my energy translating to him.

There is another horse I can ride but he is the exact opposite of this one. He’s great at jumps and will go over anything you point him at but the way he rides is vastly different than any other horse I’ve been on and I find him to be very uncomfortable (started a separate thread on him a while back :lol:)

@atl_hunter Thank you for this!! Definitely many things I need to keep in mind and work on regardless of the horse I am riding. I’m trying to identify how much of this issue is me as he’s a horse that requires you to micromanage every step, no room for error. If you leave out one, the jump won’t be successful; we might still go over it but it’s sloppy.

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions from everyone!

[Jo]

Just my two cents from the video. You have a very active, but not independently acting hand. Fixing this issue will help - maybe concentrate on grabbing mane or a martingale and get your base independent without interference from your hands.

You’re much braver than I am. My heart horse was a nasty stopper and I’m still traumatized 20 years later.

[centaursam]

@Jo

Just my two cents from the video. You have a very active, but not independently acting hand. Fixing this issue will help - maybe concentrate on grabbing mane or a martingale and get your base independent without interference from your hands.

You’re much braver than I am. My heart horse was a nasty stopper and I’m still traumatized 20 years later.

You are correct. I believe in general I have very noisy hands, if not arms. Something I need to work on for sure.

[Classic]

You have done the right thing in asking for ideas here. Sometimes when the only input you get is your trainer’s, you may not be “hearing” what is said. If some of the same advice is given here, you may listen better and apply the advice.