Refusals

[SuzieQNutter]

I feel that he has been pushed too fast to soon. A sign of this is him over jumping. This is not him being naughty or loving jumping. This is him being unconfident and green.

3 foot is too high for now. Lower the jumps to a height that he can be pushed over from a standstill if need be. Now every time he must either go over or stop in front. Nothing else is allowed. He is not allowed to turn around or go around. If he goes over praise. If he does not go over and stops in front you must push him over.

I would also be going back to trot poles and starting from the beginning before the above. Build his confidence and he will jump better.

[centaursam]

@SuzieQNutter

I feel that he has been pushed too fast to soon. A sign of this is him over jumping. This is not him being naughty or loving jumping. This is him being unconfident and green.

3 foot is too high for now. Lower the jumps to a height that he can be pushed over from a standstill if need be. Now every time he must either go over or stop in front. Nothing else is allowed. He is not allowed to turn around or go around. If he goes over praise. If he does not go over and stops in front you must push him over.

I would also be going back to trot poles and starting from the beginning before the above. Build his confidence and he will jump better.

This is an excellent point, thank you!

[paw]

I agree with SuzieQ - he does not look confident at all, and you’re having to push him, which isn’t helping either of you. Ideally, you’d go back to work over poles and instill “forward” (not running, but taking you) over obstacles. Let him slow to a trot, or even a walk, if he’s unsure, but his job is to keep moving his feet in the right direction. Your job (also hard) is to react appropriately - keep him between your hand and leg (ride his hind end), and don’t throw him away over the pole/fence. Slow it all down until he understands that he can trust you to (a) not overface him and (b) not make any sudden moves in the saddle.

When he’s confidently taking you over poles, start over boxes or small fences, but let him tell you if he’s uncertain, and slow everyting down until he understands it’s no big deal. This likely will take months, not days, but at the end, it will be well worth the time.

[centaursam]

@paw

I agree with SuzieQ - he does not look confident at all, and you’re having to push him, which isn’t helping either of you. Ideally, you’d go back to work over poles and instill “forward” (not running, but taking you) over obstacles. Let him slow to a trot, or even a walk, if he’s unsure, but his job is to keep moving his feet in the right direction. Your job (also hard) is to react appropriately - keep him between your hand and leg (ride his hind end), and don’t throw him away over the pole/fence. Slow it all down until he understands that he can trust you to (a) not overface him and (b) not make any sudden moves in the saddle.

When he’s confidently taking you over poles, start over boxes or small fences, but let him tell you if he’s uncertain, and slow everything down until he understands it’s no big deal. This likely will take months, not days, but at the end, it will be well worth the time.

He used to be a hunter horse years ago before my trainer got him so I know he’s capable of jumping over things and showing.

I don’t know if something happened to him along the way but it’s been nearly 6 months of me riding him several times a week and when we first started it was as if he had never jumped over anything before. I’m fine with going back to poles, although I do a lot of flatwork with him beyond jumping already.

[mbhorse]

IMHO, I would look for a new trainer with a better lesson horse. I find it bothersome that your trainer tells you to “lift him up hard” right before the fence, then tells you to “slam on the brakes” after the jump. As others have said, the horse doesn’t look or sound confident in his job, and given this training advice, it’s not likely to help build his confidence or ridability.

[centaursam]

@mbhorse

IMHO, I would look for a new trainer with a better lesson horse. I find it bothersome that your trainer tells you to “lift him up hard” right before the fence, then tells you to “slam on the brakes” after the jump. As others have said, the horse doesn’t look or sound confident in his job, and given this training advice, it’s not likely to help build his confidence or ridability.

In defense of my trainer she’s saying those things to me to help me with a few issues I have so what she is saying may be misinterpreted by others. This horse requires constant collection as he’s very heavy on the forehand and very lazy. If I’m not driving him with my leg and keeping him framed, he’ll throw his head/neck low and flop forward. I sometimes lose reign contact just before a jump as I drop my hands or lean too early (not good, I’m working on it) and you can’t do that with this horse, especially going over jumps so she’s exaggerating and reminding me to keep him held up using my body.

Whens he’s telling me to slam on the brakes, she’s wanting me to snap back quickly after the jump and collect him again because he can land in a very downhill flop and get a bit jazzed after jumps. If you don’t sit him back and frame him up again, the next jump will be a disaster.

[Foitin]

@mbhorse

IMHO, I would look for a new trainer with a better lesson horse. I find it bothersome that your trainer tells you to “lift him up hard” right before the fence, then tells you to “slam on the brakes” after the jump. As others have said, the horse doesn’t look or sound confident in his job, and given this training advice, it’s not likely to help build his confidence or ridability.

Agree. I understand you have loyalty to your trainer/barn and know it is very difficult to change, but it is not your job to school the lesson horses. This doesn’t seem like something you should be paying for. Any good barn offering lessons will provide suitable, safe mounts for their riders. Best of luck, I know none of this must be easy!

[SuzieQNutter]

@centaursam

In defense of my trainer she’s saying those things to me to help me with a few issues I have so what she is saying may be misinterpreted by others. This horse requires constant collection as he’s very heavy on the forehand and very lazy. If I’m not driving him with my leg and keeping him framed, he’ll throw his head/neck low and flop forward. I sometimes lose reign contact just before a jump as I drop my hands or lean too early (not good, I’m working on it) and you can’t do that with this horse, especially going over jumps so she’s exaggerating and reminding me to keep him held up using my body.

Whens he’s telling me to slam on the brakes, she’s wanting me to snap back quickly after the jump and collect him again because he can land in a very downhill flop and get a bit jazzed after jumps. If you don’t sit him back and frame him up again, the next jump will be a disaster.

All the things you are trying to do while jumping should be 100% on the flat with no jumps first.

Getting jazzed over jumps means to return to trot poles until no jazz.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

He’s an attractive horse, but in the short clip you posted (bear in mind I’m not a trainer), you seem to be working very, very hard to ride him every single stride, as if there is a concern (which I assume there is), he’ll stop or get squirrely. Building off of what @SuzieQNutter said, what is he like when you’re riding him purely on the flat. Does he require such a driving seat and micro-management or is he more relaxed?

[centaursam]

@Impractical Horsewoman

He’s an attractive horse, but in the short clip you posted (bear in mind I’m not a trainer), you seem to be working very, very hard to ride him every single stride, as if there is a concern (which I assume there is), he’ll stop or get squirrely. Building off of what @SuzieQNutter said, what is he like when you’re riding him purely on the flat. Does he require such a driving seat and micro-management or is he more relaxed?

Everyone always compliments his looks. I tell them they’ll quickly change their fondness of him if they rode him haha.

He’s VERY lazy. It takes a lot of work just to get him moving, let alone getting him collected and staying that way. He requires a constant driving seat and micro-management even on the flat whether it’s trot or canter. If you don’t ride him that way he’ll either collapse into a heaping stop as soon as you ease up or he’ll proceed to flop/nosedive forward as he slows down, almost as if tripping over his front legs.

I don’t mind the effort to ride him necessarily. I took it as an opportunity to build leg and overall strength but I can see how it detracts from the ride and how it’s probably contributing to the movement in my hands and lower leg.

[SuzieQNutter]

Start on the lunge. Ask for walk with voice only. This should be established with leading first. If he walks praise. If he stops you then use the whip bumping it on the ground, etc until he walks and you praise and keep the whip still.

The same with trot. Transitions are voice only. You only use the whip if he breaks to a walk. In the beginning a trot is a trot, dont ask for trot when he is trotting. The exact same as you would not ask for halt when he is halted.

When that is down pat rinse and repeat for canter, you only use the whip when he breaks from canter, praise and lower the whip when he is cantering.

You will end up with a horse that walks, trots and canters on the lunge with no whip.

Rinse and repeat with your legs and if needed dressage whip in the saddle.

A horse that won’t go without legs on has to be taught go without legs on.

A horse that you can’t put legs on, needs to be taught to go with legs on.

[paw]

He’s not lazy. He’s not forward. He may be diving onto his forehand in an attempt to not have to use his hind end (which is much more work). He may be reluctant to use his hind end properly because he hurts.

Using a driving seat is almost never the right answer. If you owned the horse and knew how to longe correctly (not just “yeehaw” on the end of a line), I’d suggest a couple of weeks of longe work getting him to work his haunches to the outside of a tight circle and then letting him go forward on a larger one. The longe is nice because it lets the horse use himself without rider interference, and you can watch how he moves and detect irregularity and/or stiffness while he works.

But I agree with everyone who says that this is not a suitable lesson horse (unless you’re studying how to retrain one) - he needs too much long, slow work to be useful to you as a jumping horse.

[centaursam]

Correct, he is not forward. Pretty much the opposite of forward.

I don’t mind learning how to retrain a horse. Perhaps my expectations where not correctly aligned with this horse and where I’m at as a rider. At the moment my trainer has no other horses really so it’s either stick with him and go back to work from the ground up, or find a new trainer/barn.

[Bogie]

I would stop riding him. He’s teaching you to be a busy, aggressive rider. Either your trainer needs to get on him and teach him how to go forward, or you should ask to ride something different. Once you get on a forward horse it will be hard for you to stop overusing your body. You should have a supportive leg, yes, but right now you’re actively kicking, rounding your back and getting very busy with your hands.

Part of the beauty of riding a horse that responds to you is the ability to be light with your aids and having your horse respond to the slightest shift in weight.

You are “shouting” at the horse rather than “whispering”. It’s not that he can’t hear you, but that he’s either confused or too weak to do what you’re asking. But he’s not YOUR horse, so not YOUR problem.

[mbhorse]

I just watched your trot and canter videos that followed the short jumping clip on YouTube. Let me start by saying I’m not a professional. But a few things caught my eye.

It looks like this horse wants to pull like a freight train on his forehand, stiffen his jaw and invert when you ask him to balance, and leave a trailing hind end that isn’t engaged. I would start by doing tons of lateral work with almost constant changes of direction every half dozen strides or so when he’s not being soft and round. This should help engage the hind end and soften him if done in a manner which wraps him around your leg and keeps him forward into an elastic hand.

Speaking of hands, you really need to work on developing and independent seat and hands (not saying this to be mean). Shorten your reins and don’t ride with your hands in your lap, but keep your hands soft and your arms elastic. When he goes to stiffen, invert and get quick on his forehand, stretch tall and ride from your leg into a closed (but not hard and pulling) hand, with a little leg yield to the outside. The moment he softens, soften your hand but keep quiet, elastic contact. Do not seesaw his mouth left and right with your hands, as this will only create more tension and perhaps an “artifical” softening where he drops his head but is behind your legs and hands and not actually engaged with his hind end.

With a horse like this, always focus on riding the hind end up to the front end with elasticity. But when he tries to invert, get quick and lug, close the leg and ride him up into a closed, but not hard or pulling, hand, that softens but maintains contact the moment he softens. The last thing you want to do with a horse like this is to get into a tug of war with him.

[paw]

@centaursam

Correct, he is not forward. Pretty much the opposite of forward.

I don’t mind learning how to retrain a horse. Perhaps my expectations where not correctly aligned with this horse and where I’m at as a rider. At the moment my trainer has no other horses really so it’s either stick with him and go back to work from the ground up, or find a new trainer/barn.

Retraining a horse can be magic, but it helps to have the rest of his team behind your work. IMO, the path forward with this horse starts by going all the way back - do you think your trainer has the stomach for that? It is a slow (and may be a very slow) and patient course. It really does help to have eyes on the ground who will commit to the process.

Only you know the situation.

[centaursam]

@Bogie That is a great analogy, I definitely feel like I’m “shouting” with my body, nothing subtle about anything I’m doing. A forward horse sounds very welcoming right now!

@mbhorse I only have one video of this horse on my channel. The other ones on there are of a different horse who is the complete opposite of this one and I have a slew of problems with that horse which you seem to have identified :lol: But yes, in general, I do need to work on my hands as they are not independent, especially on this horse.

@paw I don’t think my trainer would mind going back but the problem will be convincing her. She’s always on me about my hands so she’s identified that problem and it’s a work in progress. And we do spend time doing flat work/pole work, but to tell her to forget jumping him all together for the time being I’m not sure she’d be up for it as I don’t think she sees the need (I’m assuming she would have told me earlier as I’ve done that with other horses of hers in the past). Regardless, I’ll bring it up to her and see what she says.

[mbhorse]

@centaursam

@Bogie That is a great analogy, I definitely feel like I’m “shouting” with my body, nothing subtle about anything I’m doing. A forward horse sounds very welcoming right now!

@mbhorse I only have one video of this horse on my channel. The other ones on there are of a different horse who is the complete opposite of this one and I have a slew of problems with that horse which you seem to have identified :lol: But yes, in general, I do need to work on my hands as they are not independent, especially on this horse.

@paw I don’t think my trainer would mind going back but the problem will be convincing her. She’s always on me about my hands so she’s identified that problem and it’s a work in progress. And we do spend time doing flat work/pole work, but to tell her to forget jumping him all together for the time being I’m not sure she’d be up for it as I don’t think she sees the need (I’m assuming she would have told me earlier as I’ve done that with other horses of hers in the past). Regardless, I’ll bring it up to her and see what she says.

😂🤣😂🤣 Thank you so much for clarifying! I was wondering about the horse in the flat videos stopping in a heap if you didn’t keep pushing him. That’s what I get for looking at the big picture on a small phone screen and not paying attention to the horses markings, silly me😂 I admire your tenacity to stick with the tough ones. As long as they don’t shatter your confidence or create bad riding habits, they can help make you a better rider.

[paw]

@centaursam

[USER=“84894”]
@paw I don’t think my trainer would mind going back but the problem will be convincing her. She’s always on me about my hands so she’s identified that problem and it’s a work in progress. And we do spend time doing flat work/pole work, but to tell her to forget jumping him all together for the time being I’m not sure she’d be up for it as I don’t think she sees the need (I’m assuming she would have told me earlier as I’ve done that with other horses of hers in the past). Regardless, I’ll bring it up to her and see what she says.

But really, your problem isn’t your hands as much as it is your connection to the horse’s hind end. Hands support or guide, but if there’s nothing coming from behind, there’s really not much to guide, yes?

This is why work at the walk is so key - the horse is stable (3 feet on the ground at all times) and everything slows down so you (and the horse) can really figure out where each foot is at each moment. Retraining a horse is teaching it to use its body differently, which takes time (just as it would take you time to learn a new way of holding yourself). Ideally, the horse is moving off his hind end from your leg; your hands at the bit just “catch” the energy in the front.

IME, very few trainers (especially in the h/j world) really fully understand this concept enough to be able to teach it. If your trainer doesn’t get it, she’s not going to be on board with this effort, at which point you’ll have to decide whether you want to keep on riding this horse the way she’s willing to teach you, or whether you want to look elsewhere for a better fit.

Best of luck!

[centaursam]

@mbhorse No worries, I appreciate the feedback regardless of which video you’re watching :lol: No confidence shattering going on - if anything, struggling with the tough horses has always made me want train more. The issue is identifying what I’m doing wrong before it becomes a bad habit as you have indicated.

@paw Conceptually I understand what you’e saying, especially the part about the bit catching the energy in the front. Obviously I’m having a hard time applying it on this one. Interestingly, he responds quite well to bareback/no stirrup with less effort on my part. I shall discuss all this with my trainer, thank you for the advice.