Refusals

[twelvebelles]

@SuzieQNutter

I feel that he has been pushed too fast to soon. A sign of this is him over jumping. This is not him being naughty or loving jumping. This is him being unconfident and green.

After watching the video, and the other videos on the poster’s channel, I totally disagree with this. This is a horse who knows his job, but is struggling with the rider getting in his way. He is getting jazzed over jumps because the rider is bouncing the reins and flopping around. He was also getting tight and upset in the other trot videos I watched, and the trainer in the background says “no one else who rides him has this problem, so we have to figure out what you’re doing wrong.” Which I think is a ridiculous thing for her to say - she should be able to figure it out, instead of letting you guys trot frantically around and around in a circle while musing why it is happening to herself. It should not take several months, and there should be no jumping until she does. I do not like the way she communicates with you in your videos in general - she sounds like she doesn’t know how to explain what you need to do.

OP, I am sorry to sound harsh, but I don’t think this is the right learning situation for you at this point in your riding career. Until you have an independent seat, you should be on the flat and maybe ground poles and cavaletti, and you should be with a trainer who is willing and able to work on the basics with you instead of just sending you over 3’ jumps.

[centaursam]

@twelvebelles Those are two completely different horses. There is only one video on my channel of the horse that this thread is about. The other horse I’ve only rode a few times on the flat.

[gertie06]

I remember you from a post a few months back. You were inappropriately mounted then, too. I don’t believe it’s the same horse. I agree with a previous poster that you need to seek a different learning situation. Your trainer is not doing you any favors.

I know that I must sound like a royal b*tch, and for that I truly apologize. But you are still green, so you would not know that your trainer is making mistakes with you. If you really want to progress in your riding career, you need a different leader. Just the fact that you’re turning to us, not your current trainer, should be evidence enough of that.

[endlessclimb]

I’m no pro, but I was going to mention how noisy you look in the saddle. Arms flapping, body pumping, banging the saddle. Get on a hotter horse with all that movement, and you will have a VERY bad time.

Lazy is a training issue, or a smart horse playing you the fool. Ask once, kick/spank/growl second. This sounds mean, but it’s not. The horse quickly learns they need to do what’s asked of them the first time, or there are immediate consequences. Same with the horse who won’t maintain a gait - except with a baby, I won’t ask twice. Even with a baby, the expectation of “I put you there, you stay there” comes very quickly.

I think taking dressage lessons on this horse with a dressage specific trainer would be really beneficial to you, if your trainer will allow it. Otherwise, I’d get a new trainer. These habits are going to be SO HARD to fix, and as a vanity thing, they look bad. No one wants to look like they’re doing the funky chicken when they ride, and that’s what this horse is currently teaching you.

[Foitin]

Not to keep harping on this, but just wanted to note that if you don’t trust your trainer, which posting on COTH would suggest, then you should really seek out another barn. I come here to ask about gear, etiquette, and the scene in areas in which I am not familiar. Not how to ride my horse around a course (which is not easy for me!). I can’t tell you the difference it has made for me over the years to work with trainers that I know 1) will not over face me, or 2) do not underestimate my ability and 3) are not simply trying to take my money, but actually receive their own satisfaction from their students getting better and learning to enjoy the sport. Get a trainer that challenges you on safe animals if at all possible: i know budget and geography can make this difficult, take care!

[SuzieQNutter]

@twelvebelles

After watching the video, and the other videos on the poster’s channel, I totally disagree with this. This is a horse who knows his job, but is struggling with the rider getting in his way. He is getting jazzed over jumps because the rider is bouncing the reins and flopping around. He was also getting tight and upset in the other trot videos I watched, and the trainer in the background says “no one else who rides him has this problem, so we have to figure out what you’re doing wrong.” Which I think is a ridiculous thing for her to say - she should be able to figure it out, instead of letting you guys trot frantically around and around in a circle while musing why it is happening to herself. It should not take several months, and there should be no jumping until she does. I do not like the way she communicates with you in your videos in general - she sounds like she doesn’t know how to explain what you need to do.

OP, I am sorry to sound harsh, but I don’t think this is the right learning situation for you at this point in your riding career. Until you have an independent seat, you should be on the flat and maybe ground poles and cavaletti, and you should be with a trainer who is willing and able to work on the basics with you instead of just sending you over 3’ jumps.

My answer was from what she wrote not seeing a video.

As @twelvebelles said a horse will start refusing and end up not jumping at all if he is getting hit in the teeth by the bit from the reins in the rider’s hands when he jumps.

[pony4me]

You mention that the horse used to be a hunter horse years ago. Did you mean a show hunter, or a field hunter? And how old is the horse? If he is older, is he getting appropriate maintenance? Does your trainer plan to keep him, or is he/she trying to retrain and sell the horse? Sometimes the long, slow, back to basics solution gets tossed aside if a quick sale is desired. You seem to have come a long way, but you understand there’s a lot more to do, which is great. You are gaining excellent insight into understanding and retraining a horse. There are many pieces to the puzzle, but it’s a beautiful picture when it all comes together.

[Bogie]

One thing you can try to keep your hands still is to ride with a neck strap. While holding the reins, also hold onto it. Simple trick but it’s amazing what a huge difference it can make. I used to try to adjust my TB coming into jumps. My trainer had me ride with a neck strap so that the ONLY thing I was pulling on was the strap. Horse jumped much better without me getting in the way! I’ve suggested this to many friends who had fussy horses or horses that pulled. The neck strap keeps YOU steady so that the horse has a safe space to come into. I actually got to the point where I could walk/trot/canter my TB with only the neckstrap and my seat. No reins.

I still think it’s the wrong horse to learn on, but try that and see if it helps. BTW, I use an old stirrup leather as a neck strap. No need to go out and buy something.

Another thing to try is a bitless bridle. It mutes your hands and forces you to ride off your seat, but you’d have to buy one, or try riding with reins attached to a halter. I usually ride my horses bitless over the winter because I hate putting a cold bit in their mouths. It reminds me that reins are only one part of how we communicate with our horses. As humans we use our hands for everything so it’s easy to fall into the habit of going to your hands as a first resort, when it should be the last.

I went back and looked at the videos again, including the one with you riding the second horse on the flat. First, your trainer is flat out wrong about hauling on that horse in between the jumps. If he’s getting too quick or too heavy on the forehand you could stop and then move forward and rebalance, but you are in that horse’s mouth a lot. Pulling on a horse going into a fence is a great way to get into trouble. The most you should need to do is sit up in between the fences and bring your body back. When the. horse is listening to you that’s enough of a half halt to make the change.

Second, the horse trotting is running away with you. Your reins are very long, so your hands are in your lap and it’s difficult for you to maintain an even contact. Your back is rounded and you are riding defensively. This is another situation where you need help learning to control the pace of the horse with your body. If you sit up, shorten your reins and post more slowly, the horse will need to come back to you. This horse is taking you for a ride; you need to tell him what pace you want to go. The horse looks very tense and I suspect it’s a bit intimidating and strong.

One of the most important parts of riding is learning to be soft and being able to release while still maintaining an even, balanced gait. When I first got my OTTB, I remember being pleased that I was able to keep him in a balanced, slow canter. My trainer bust that bubble by telling me to soften – that holding him in that gait was not the goal. It took a lot more time and training to get to the point where he was steady and soft without relying on my hands.

I hope you don’t take these suggestions the wrong way. It’s obvious you are trying hard and want to learn. I’m actually a bit peeved at your trainer for not helping you more.

[Hoofbeat_Heartbeat]

My two cents, which others have echoed: Definitely find a different horse to learn on and/or find a different trainer.

It has taken me YEARS to unlearn all of the bad habits I learned while learning to jump on horses that were not suitable for me, for whatever reason. This is the time, to build foundational skills: relaxation, independent seat and hands, not gripping anywhere in your body, riding with your core, trust in yourself and your horse to be successful.

These things will not be accomplished while riding a horse that teaches you to ride defensively, with fear, and is teaching you things that unfortunately, will not be translated to other horses very well.

Find a different horse, get on the lunge line, and focus on your and your body for a while. Then make sure said horse is a pro at teaching people to jump, and who will not get frazzled by your mistakes (which you will make, as we all do). These horses are out there, this is not one of them.

I applaud you for seeking out the advice and knowledge of others and for your commitment to growing! Life is too short and our riding lives are too time consuming, expensive, and emotional for it to be the wrong fit. Good luck!!

[twelvebelles]

@centaursam

@twelvebelles Those are two completely different horses. There is only one video on my channel of the horse that this thread is about. The other horse I’ve only rode a few times on the flat.

Good to know. I still stand by what I said, though. That makes two different horses your trainer isn’t able to help you ride properly. You did not have control of the ride on either horse, and frankly it looked like you were one second away from disaster on both. It is not your fault. Many of us have been in the wrong training program or on unsuitable horses (or both) at one point or another in our riding journeys. It happens. The path you are on right now with your trainer is unsafe for you, and unfair to the horses. Please consider finding a different learning situation.

[centaursam]

@pony4me He was a show hunter. He’s an 11 year old Dutch warmblood. As far as I know, my trainer is planning on keeping him. Others will ride him on the flat every now and then but I’m the only one jumping him so I think the long-term goal for him is to get to the place where we can start showing. But, as the consensus on this thread seems to indicate, we’re not exactly headed in the proper direction :sigh:

@Bogie Interestingly, this trainer had me use a neck strap on a different horse many months ago when we were doing longe lessons. Why this hasn’t happened on this particular horse, not sure The other horse you’re seeing is a whole other issue in itself. Can’t remember the last time I rode a more uncomfortable horse and that’s after trying multiple saddles on him. I started a whole other thread on that one but ultimately ended up riding him only a handful of times. He is big and constantly ampped. It was hard just getting him to stand still let alone walk. An interesting horse but I was definitely not being instructed properly on how to ride him. I wish I did as he’s a great jumper. I haven’t taken anything offensively in this thread so I appreciate the advice.

@Hoofbeat_Heartbeat @twelvebelles Admittedly, I’ve had horrible luck with trainers since I first started riding. My first trainer was basic and was just someone teaching group lessons for walk/trot/canter without really any focus on mechanics. I thought I got lucky when I switched over to my second trainer who was a decent dressage rider. I started out with dressage with her then quickly transitioned to jumping when I saw Longines in person. Unbeknownst to me at the time, being decent at dressage doesn’t necessarily equate to being good at jumping, let alone being able to teach jumping. Her constantly trying to lease and/or sell her horses to me was also a nuisance. I didn’t realize how poor the training was until I switched to the trainer I have now. I’m very lucky I never had an accident with my previous trainer as I had no instruction at all how to jump properly let alone proper body position, saddle fit, etc. I blame myself for the ignorance but it’s a shame that there are many people out there teaching a sport that has the potential to injure you badly if not properly trained.

Things started out well with my current trainer as she had me do bareback, longe lessons, etc. working on a lot of things I should have worked on years ago. She had a few really good horses, but sadly they got sold and/or decommissioned early this year and it’s now just the two horses which apparently isn’t working out as smoothly as I had hoped. I can find another trainer, it’s just a bit of a hassle during a very busy time in my life. There is one other trainer I really like at the same barn, a former international grand prix rider, but he interacts with my current trainer often. Leaving her and going to him would make for an awkward situation I think. I’d most likely have to leave the barn all together.

[Redlei44]

OP, I think I remember one of your very first posts (a year or two ago?) asking where to ride in the LA area. I seem to remember your story - you are ambitious and have some time and money to spend, yes? Perhaps you could revisit those answers, and/or bump your old thread (or start another) to ask again about barns that might suit. There was a recent-ish thread about the area, you might even tag the posters who answered that one.

Also be aware that you have given more than enough detail to identify yourself to those who ride with you. I happen to agree that you would be better served by a different program, based on what you’ve posted here and previously. If your current trainer sees this, it could get awkward sooner rather than later.

[centaursam]

@Redlei44 That is indeed me from that thread, although the time I have to spend is very limited these days. There are a few barns around here I can check out. I remember contacting many of them and either got refused because I didn’t have my own horse or they didn’t return my calls/emails. I guess I’ll have to visit them in person. I’ll start looking and check out the thread you’re referring to.

I can take down the video in this thread. I didn’t mean anything bad by what I’ve shared here, nor was I expecting people to watch the other videos on my channel :lol:

[foursocks]

OP, you are open and willing to learn and that is often a rare quality! I understand that going to the other trainer at your current barn might be very uncomfortable, but it is something to consider if you like the facility and the other trainer has horses for you to ride. This is a weird business because very often it isn’t treated like a business, and egos and emotions get in the way. On the other hand, you aren’t paying for a friend, you are paying to learn and progress. If that isn’t happening you are wasting your time and your money.

I agree with the other posters who pointed out that your trainer doesn’t seem to know how to help you, and that the horse isn’t suitable. That horse is not green, it is not engaged back to front and it is used to being on its forehand and strung out. It might stop because its hocks are sore, it might stop because it has been given too many bad rides and it doesn’t trust the rider, it might stop because whatever. This may or may not be a fixable problem, depending on the cause(s), but a rider in your position should not be the one trying to do it. You don’t own the horse, and you are more on the beginner side of things, so your trainer putting this in your lap is bad for you and bad for the horse.

My jumper needs to be ridden up into the bridle because he is actually quite lazy and likes to be on his forehand. If I let him he would flop around like the horse in the video. So I do all of the things on the flat to make him strong behind, able to lift his back and be connected, I sit (not drive!) to the jumps, and make sure he is balanced and forward, etc. He can be quite difficult physically sometimes, but I know how to do all of these things and we are a good pair. BUT: when I was at your stage of riding I would not have been able to ride my horse at all effectively, and he would not have taught me what I needed to ride him. Your best plan is to find a better trainer who has appropriate horses for you.

Riding horses with quirks is fine, that is how we learn, and it is often what is available in schoolies. But, these should be safe and suitable. Riding horses with serious training issues at your level of education is not going to do anything but leave you with serious baggage. Good luck!! You will be much happier with a trainer who can help you progress and horses that allow you to learn.

[gertie06]

OP, I guarantee you everybody on this thread has made the uncomfortable switch from one trainer to another. It stinks in the moment, but if you find the right fit, you’ll be so much happier. Trainers can be nasty when they lose clients, so brace yourself. But YOU sound like a mature adult, so you just take the high road. Tell your current trainer face-to-face, follow through, and never say anything bad about her to anyone. IMO, that strategy always wins.

This sport is WAY too expensive (and dangerous) to attach yourself to the wrong program. You are clearly ambitious and could have a bright future…so don’t handicap yourself with the wrong trainer just to keep the peace.

Post us an update sometime down the road!

[IPEsq]

It is expensive to keep lesson horses, and there are fewer and fewer programs that are able to do this. Especially horses to carry adult riders. You might want to look for a half lease or other in barn lease situation with a program you like. It might be easier to find a more suitable horse that way than a lesson horse. Month to month would probably be best for you at this stage.

I think from the snippets of video you have posted that your trainer isn’t doing a bad job but she may not be speaking a language that resonates with you well, and if these horses are all she has for you to ride, they aren’t helping you progress but she is trying with what is available. Perhaps at some point in the future you could ride a horse like this, but at this stage in your education, you shouldn’t be trying to figure out how to improve your basics while also learning to deal with a horse who has baggage. A more suitable mount that will allow you to work on improving your seat and independence of your aids is what you need.

I know you didn’t have success with the one dressage trainer, but sometimes dressage programs have cheaper lease options. And a good dressage trainer could help you get control over your lower leg, seat and hands. If looking into those programs gives you more options, don’t be afraid to look there.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Hi Centaursam.

I sympathize with your difficulty in finding a good trainer. I searched for 40 years before I finally found the second riding teacher in my life who was willing to go along with me on the path to good riding. Since I have MS this was challenging, especially before my MS was diagnosed & no one had any idea why I could not do stuff, including me.

You do need suitable horses right now. My riding teacher has no difficulty in putting me up on somewhat challenging horses because I’ve ridden horses for over 50 years and during those years I educated myself a lot by training/retraining my own horses and reading equitation books by the “old masters”, so I can handle a lot of stuff that beginners have no idea how to handle. IF I did not have this long experience she would have put me on her “old reliable” lesson horses, and I mean OLD, some are over 30 years old, and super reliable. The horses I get to ride have problems, but I KNOW how to deal with most of these problems. Right now you do not know how to deal with these problems, though with experience you will learn just like I did. I am not a super rider, I am crippled with MS and very limited with what I can do, but what I CAN do I do very well (at least that is what the horses “tell” my riding teacher.) Another thing to consider about lesson horses is that horses do not reach mental maturity until they are “aged”–nine years old or older. Before this age even quiet horses can have episodes of “I don’t wanna do that” or express their irritation with their rider more emphatically than an older lesson horse. You are not qualified yet to train the young horses, that will come later with experience.

A lot of people here may disagree with what I am about to say. Do you want to jump horses? Avoid learning dressage right now. You seem to be having some difficulties with your body trying to find the right balance for jumping, this is curable with more jumping with a reliable horse and a good teacher. It is not curable for most of us adults by switching from jumping balance to a dressage balance constantly. AFTER you have made your jumping secure and effective is the right time to learn the “dressage” methods that can improve your riding between the jumps.

As far as controlling the horse right now concentrate on getting the horse to extend and shorten his stride as you ask him to, but realize that collection has no place in jumping while you are still learning how to jump effectively without abusing the horse. Practice turns, at first big and smooth, and then shorter more abrupt turns. Learn how to do this gently so that the horses will trust your hands, jumping horses especially seem to hate harsh and super busy hands. This will serve you well for many years and the horses you ride will be MUCH happier with you.

All this takes TIME, and there should be slow and steady progress. None of us get it all right off.

While good riding teachers are invaluable, I have found that MOST of what I learn from a lesson comes from the HORSE’S instruction, not my riding teacher. The horses’ reactions to my aids tell me if I got it right or if I got it horribly wrong. Right now it seems to me that the horses are trying to teach you how not to hurt or irritate them, and sometimes the rider has to ignore the riding teacher until the horse says it is comfortable enough to progress again. If there is a disagreement between my riding teacher and my horse about my riding I listen to the HORSE first, which often irritates the riding teacher. My riding teacher has gotten used to it since most the horses I ride improve.

Good luck in your search for the perfect lesson stable for you.

[Jo]

@centaursam I really want to applaud you for keeping an open mind and not getting defensive, or angry, or closing the thread because you don’t want to hear honest opinions. It can be a rarity around here!

[centaursam]

@gertie06 Thank you I’m hoping I won’t get a nasty reaction but we’ll see. I’ll keep you posted!

@IPEsq I in no way meant to make my trainer out to be a bad trainer. I think, as you said, she’s doing her best to instruct me whilst on difficult horses and it’s just not translating well. I’m all for challenging horses but if I’m just not getting it and I’m doing a disservice to myself and the horse, no amount of grunting it out and sticking with it will necessarily make it better even if that’s my default setting when times are tough.

I’m all for setting aside jumping and going back to dressage if that’s what it takes. I believe that may create more trainer options around me but we’ll see.

@Jackie Cochran I spent time with MS patients in my medical days. It’s incredible that you’re out riding! Excellent point on listening to the horse. I think I don’t trust myself enough to sometimes set aside what the trainer is saying and focus on what the horse is telling me. I just assume the trainer is always correct, although recently with this horse I can’t help but question the instruction sometimes. I will keep this in mind moving forward, regardless of trainer.

@Jo I’m always appreciative of honest feedback on here, especially if I’m not doing things correctly.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Riding horses is the only reason I am still able to walk on my own two feet (yes, I need canes.) Before I got back into riding I had almost worn out my electric wheel chair. When it stopped working I shrugged since I did not NEED it anymore.

I consider my riding teacher and the lesson horses my physical therapists. The best thing is that I can AFFORD this type of physical therapy every week of the year, I could not afford a medical physical therapist every week!

I once told my neurologist that the horses I ride know more about my MS and which nerves are damaged than he does with all the MRIs.