regarding side reins

[Manni01]

https://www.facebook.com/Hessenschau…2204662497817/

We had this discussion here a while ago. Today this video showed up in my timeline. It really shows that in Germany side reins work for Children and also for beginners. They are useful because they give weaker riders a good feeling on the horse and give them the chance to focus on a correct position and aids without having to struggle with getting the horse over the back. And they are legal for specific classes even in huge shows [IMG]https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/feb/2/16/1f642.png) Sorry it is German

[CanteringCarrot]

I agree with the occasional lesson / longing lesson in side reins for riders to focus on themselves without having to worry about the horse so much. Or for being able to feel the horse in a more correct “shape” perhaps.

However, I do not agree with the extent that they are being used in the video. I haven’t seen this very much in Germany, but I don’t really ride where there are a lot of kids. I see them at shows from time to time, but I’m mostly around adult riders.

I also don’t like these kind of devices being used in excess because I’d like the rider to actually learn how to ride. I also don’t like getting into an “oh sh*t” moment under saddle and having my horse in a fixed device that I cannot adjust or let go of from the saddle. Odds are slim, but still.
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[Glyphica]

I’m so torn on riding in side reins, Vienna reins, draw reins, etc. Part of me wishes that it was more acceptable because it would cut down on all the see sawing hands i see at the lower levels (the bulk of riders). On the flip side, I too worry about the safety aspect. I also think that most riders do not ride forward enough so these auxiliary reins would lead to more BTV, disengaged horses dragging around he arena.

For more discussion, do you think these things help or hurt a rider develop an independent seat? Lack of an independent seat is probably the biggest, base problem I see all the time.

[Scribbler]

The children are adorable and clearly well trained little riders. However there isn’t enough footage of them under saddle to really evaluate the practice.

In general I have a problem seeing children being encouraged to ride above their actual competency level on full size horses. Where I live sidereins in competition would only be allowed in paradressage.

Thinking about it my ideal vision of a child getting a strong foundation for a lifetime of English riding would be a plucky tween on a large pony riding to foxes in the British country side. Getting a sticky seat confidence and a mount that is perfectly sized for them to use correct aids.

Then getting introduced to dressage via pony club eventing or the like.

If you want to say I read too many versions of “they bought her a pony” set in some idealized interwar British country side, I can only plead guilty.

[Manni01]

In Germany there is a Lessonhorse Cup. It is specifically for lesson horses and there is a big final every year. I am sorry I could not really find a video with only the dressage part, because that is in side reins as well, but in this video there is some footage of the dressage part. Maybe that gives you a better feel how it works…

https://youtu.be/wMy4yQppCck

and another one…
https://youtu.be/9Z55drS-LEU

And I am probably biassed because I grew up in sidereins as a child, as every other kid of my age group in Germany as well. Cant really say that it harmed me or any of the other riders. And I really believe it helps beginner riders or kids to develope an independent seat. Because there are 2 things to it. First of all you can focus on the position without worrying about how the horse carries his neck, and then it does make the horse work over his back, because the neck is in the right position for it. So the rider gets a feel for that as well before he is able to achieve this himself.

I can only say it worked very well in my Childhood and as far as I know it still works…

[Magicboy]

I had childhood lessons with sidereins and I survived as did the saintly lesson horses I rode

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

In Germany there is a Lessonhorse Cup. It is specifically for lesson horses and there is a big final every year. I am sorry I could not really find a video with only the dressage part, because that is in side reins as well, but in this video there is some footage of the dressage part. Maybe that gives you a better feel how it works…

https://youtu.be/wMy4yQppCck

and another one…
https://youtu.be/9Z55drS-LEU

And I am probably biassed because I grew up in sidereins as a child, as every other kid of my age group in Germany as well. Cant really say that it harmed me or any of the other riders. And I really believe it helps beginner riders or kids to develope an independent seat. Because there are 2 things to it. First of all you can focus on the position without worrying about how the horse carries his neck, and then it does make the horse work over his back, because the neck is in the right position for it. So the rider gets a feel for that as well before he is able to achieve this himself.

I can only say it worked very well in my Childhood and as far as I know it still works…

No, it doesn’t harm the riders, it harms the horses as it’s a safety hazard.

However, it should never go under the legs, that teaches very very bad connection and works down/back on the poll. But of course, leverage always feels good and "works:…till it doesn’t.

At least if you use them, make them breakaway!

[Glyphica]

Question for those who grew up in them – How did the horses react to really bad riding? Not abusive, but like the newbies who just bounce about and accidentally bop the reins, balance on the reins, etc? I’m just thinking of my own horses. I could see putting my intermediate level people in side reins – the ones who are fairly independent and ready to start really riding and not just staying on and steering. I couldn’t imagine putting total up/downers in them. I know it sounds awful, but sometimes I think the horses are better to be allowed to avoid/ignore rider rein aids.

[merrygoround]

@Glyphica

I’m so torn on riding in side reins, Vienna reins, draw reins, etc. Part of me wishes that it was more acceptable because it would cut down on all the see sawing hands i see at the lower levels (the bulk of riders). On the flip side, I too worry about the safety aspect. I also think that most riders do not ride forward enough so these auxiliary reins would lead to more BTV, disengaged horses dragging around he arena.

For more discussion, do you think these things help or hurt a rider develop an independent seat? Lack of an independent seat is probably the biggest, base problem I see all the time.

There is a distinct difference between riding in side reins, draw reins, and Vienna reins… Both draw and Vienna reins can be released from the saddle easily. For horses that bolt, Vienna reins can be a blessing for the rider, draw reins can also be useful. Unfortunately, all three can be misused.

Under intelligent instruction both Vienna, and side reins can help develop an independent seat. Draw reins-not at all.

[Glyphica]

@merrygoround

There is a distinct difference between riding in side reins, draw reins, and Vienna reins… Both draw and Vienna reins can be released from the saddle easily. For horses that bolt, Vienna reins can be a blessing for the rider, draw reins can also be useful. Unfortunately, all three can be misused.

Under intelligent instruction both Vienna, and side reins can help develop an independent seat. Draw reins-not at all.

Totally agree on the bottom part. I should have separated the side/vienna reins from draws in my question. I’m not totally opposed to draws, but I think only very qualified riders should use them.

[ComingAttraction]

Sidereins may help the Little’s but don’t help the horse. I don’t use them. Funny my kids can ride without them. #goodponiesthatarewellschooled

[skydy]

Obviously this method of teaching children has worked quite well (and for many decades) in Germany.

The training of the ponies (as well as children) in Germany and the U.S. are no doubt different in many respects so when some people from the U.S. see the German method they are concerned about the possibility of a child abusing the pony’s mouth or of the pony becoming upset with the side reins. The Germany ponies and children seem quite capable I think.

Because of the differences in training, if this method was attempted in the U.S. without the same basics beforehand it could very easily prove to be disastrous, however this method doesn’t seem to be causing problems in Germany (ponies freaking out and flipping over or children being allowed to abuse the ponies).

Cute little things aren’t they? :yes:

[Manni01]

@Glyphica

Question for those who grew up in them – How did the horses react to really bad riding? Not abusive, but like the newbies who just bounce about and accidentally bop the reins, balance on the reins, etc? I’m just thinking of my own horses. I could see putting my intermediate level people in side reins – the ones who are fairly independent and ready to start really riding and not just staying on and steering. I couldn’t imagine putting total up/downers in them. I know it sounds awful, but sometimes I think the horses are better to be allowed to avoid/ignore rider rein aids.

I think with children its usually ok for the horses because children are small and really can’t do a lot of harm. And there is also an instructor to tell them.

With adults I guess it doesn’t matter whether there are sidereins or not. If they are total beginners and big, it will be tough for the horse.

But I assume without side reins it will take longer for the beginner to get anywhere because the horse will try to work against the beginner. With side reins, possibly the beginner has more chances to get a feel for the whole thing. A horse which just raises the neck and hollows the back will give any rider a bad time, for a beginner its a disaster.

By the way, I found a really cool video!! It really reminds me of my youth. Thats exactly how our lessons looked like And I guess the instructor was also sitting on a chair. And I remember we did the same things in the lessons…

https://youtu.be/RV_-ldCLHiY

[CFFarm]

Side reins are for use with a longeing surcingle not to numb the riders" hands.

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

I think with children its usually ok for the horses because children are small and really can’t do a lot of harm. And there is also an instructor to tell them.

With adults I guess it doesn’t matter whether there are sidereins or not. If they are total beginners and big, it will be tough for the horse.

But I assume without side reins it will take longer for the beginner to get anywhere because the horse will try to work against the beginner. With side reins, possibly the beginner has more chances to get a feel for the whole thing. A horse which just raises the neck and hollows the back will give any rider a bad time, for a beginner its a disaster.

By the way, I found a really cool video!! It really reminds me of my youth. Thats exactly how our lessons looked like And I guess the instructor was also sitting on a chair. And I remember we did the same things in the lessons…

https://youtu.be/RV_-ldCLHiY

the rider needs to learn to ride.

A huge safety risk- a horse can easily torque his neck if he trips, catch a leg, etc. I hope they are at least breakaway? I have some, they are really great.

I grew up in the german system, but these days I prefer not to use SR and have a more dynamic feel. Double longing and flexions are much better to create throughness.

[Angela_Freda]

@SendenHorse

the rider needs to learn to ride.

A huge safety risk- a horse can easily torque his neck if he trips, catch a leg, etc. I hope they are at least breakaway? I have some, they are really great.

I grew up in the german system, but these days I prefer not to use SR and have a more dynamic feel. Double longing and flexions are much better to create throughness.

Agreed.

Add on that anyone can hang a ‘Trainer’ shingle out in the US… then add in people with education who defend the poorly skilled trainers posting online videos evidencing their lack of knowledge [ a certain Maestro the OP likes to defend comes to mind] and there’s absolutely no reason to think that such a teaching system would be something that would not end up badly for horses and riders alike.

[SendenHorse]

@Angela Freda

Agreed.

Add on that anyone can hang a ‘Trainer’ shingle out in the US… then add in people with education who defend the poorly skilled trainers posting online videos evidencing their lack of knowledge [ a certain Maestro the OP likes to defend comes to mind] and there’s absolutely no reason to think that such a teaching system would be something that would not end up badly for horses and riders alike.

If your goal is to go around the ring as we see, this serves that purpose. This isn’t training, doesn’t teach the rider to understand HOW to fix leaning/connection issues.

I’ve seen Manni’s videos, we are just at different places with things. It’s not good or bad, my horse would be done a dis-service with a fixed SR so i would never use it.

[Manni01]

@SendenHorse

If your goal is to go around the ring as we see, this serves that purpose. This isn’t training, doesn’t teach the rider to understand HOW to fix leaning/connection issues.

I’ve seen Manni’s videos, we are just at different places with things. It’s not good or bad, my horse would be done a dis-service with a fixed SR so i would never use it.

I think there seems to be a misunderstanding… I was never suggesting that you use it… I thought you ride upper level dressage… So I don’t think that would be productive…

In Germany it is used for the very basic education. The last video I posted is kind of the beginning. You can see pretty helpless children just coming off lunge lessons there as well as some other kids which are a little more advanced and a little better. They do all these routines in order to get familiar with the horse or pony. And this type of lesson is pretty affordable… When I was a kid a lesson like this was around 10 marks… Not sure about nowadays but probably still cheap.

When the kids become more advanced they will look like the kids participating in the other Videos. Still with sidereins but already sitting with a nice position and able to ride a training level test in a group ( which is in fact pretty challenging… )
Then at that point they start to get rid of the side reins and do their basic certification in order to compete in shows. And from then on they progress without side reins…

Very sorry Sendenhorse that you thought I was suggesting you should use them…

[atr]

My trainer uses them with beginners, both children and adults. It’s a system that seems to be very effective and allows the student to focus on their seat and not on their hands, thus, they never even start being “handsy,” and as they progress to a greater level of understanding, it gives them the feel of what they are looking for.

She gets some students in who have been started with other methods and this seems to work as an excellent “remedial” program for people who have no seat and/or who overuse their hands, as well.

Now, the horses/ponies she uses them on are all well trained to accept them and they are under close control in an indoor arena.

They graduate out of them and they do learn to ride, really rather well.

I was a little skeptical too, but I can see that it produces good results, is safe if managed correctly, and the horses are happy.

[luvmyhackney]

I use them with my 7 and 8-year-old on the lunge line and sometimes on their own. They weigh less than 40 lbs. Gives my pony some boundaries and helps him understand, littles are up, so behave and don’t act like an a$$. He’s no worse for wear, keeps him from stopping for bites of grass, stopping and scratching a leg and other stuff that littles aren’t strong enough to pull him up from. They are not tight, plus he is used to them and trained to wear them without panicking. Its all done under close supervision.

My oldest and I don’t ride him in side reins, but the 1 or 2 times a week my little kids do, I have no issues using them.