regarding side reins

[Mondo]

“Double longing and flexions are much better to create throughness.” True. And that has absolutely ZERO to do with the OP, which is little kids (and beginners) riding with side reins to give the poor horses a break, but mostly to teach them what it feels like so they can learn to duplicate that feeling. Beginners aren’t “creating throughness” because they are a long way from understanding what that means, let alone feeling how to accomplish it.

Introducing riding with side reins does not create a crutch for the ride as do draw reins.

I was introduced to the riding-with-side-reins-on-a-school-horse concept by a German Trainer long ago. I think it’s fine. I don’t teach up/down lessons as a rule, and I don’t use side reins routinely, but I certainly will slap them on there once in a while if I think the rider’s hands are rough or they have trouble with contact.

[Scribbler]

However in order for the horse to go that nicely in sidereins the horse has obviously been schooled extensively in side reins. So this implies a training system that uses them. You couldn’t put kids on a horse unfamiliar to side reins and expect this outcome. So while this is “just for kids” it implies consistent use of side reins in training.

The two places you will see riders in side reins in North America are vaulting horses on a longe line and perhaps some specific para Equestrian accommodation.

I have never ridden in side reins even in longe lessons.

Once for about a month in weekly lessons a long time ago I rode a horse with a bungee type tiedown as shed started tossing her head. We fixed my hands and took the tiedown off. I disliked it because this was a horse who in fact knew how to stretch to the bit and take contact and carry her back. But the tiedown eliminated that possibility. She was fine after it came off. We were doing jumper lessons not dressage so I never got to play with the reach that much. It was early days for me doing dressage with another coach so I while I could feel it happening I didn’t get a chance to deliberately to school for it. Mare did hit a nice medium extended trot one day, felt wonderful, but not a big call for that in jumpers! Sold to a good private home, nice horse.

Anyhow when I look at the position of the side reins on the horses in the video I feel they would also interfere with the horse reaching for contact.

I can see that doesn’t matter if the kiddies are just riding as passengers but I have spent so much time trying to get my rather sensitive head high mare to reach for contact that I would never want to do anything that might give another message. That includes putting side reins on her to longe a beginner.

Riding loose and Western is fine, it’s neutral ( really she wants to be a cowpony). But I wouldn’t want to put fixed reins into the equation.

I also don’t think a horse should be ridden for a whole lesson in a sidereins “frame.” You need stretch breaks in between bouts of collected work. Of course maybe the kiddies have short lessons or cool out without side reins.

[AltersAreUs]

@SendenHorse

If your goal is to go around the ring as we see, this serves that purpose. This isn’t training, doesn’t teach the rider to understand HOW to fix leaning/connection issues.

I’ve seen Manni’s videos, we are just at different places with things. It’s not good or bad, my horse would be done a dis-service with a fixed SR so i would never use it.

I think this is generally used with riders who wouldn’t know the first thing about fixing a leaning or connection issue and you wouldn’t want them to try. That’s like step 10 where this is used for step 2 - how not to just topple forward every time your horse moves when not on a lunge.

When I’ve seen it done, normally the kids are very raw beginners and don’t really have any contact with the reins. I mean, sure, they can do an open the door turn but there’s too much slack to really balance on them. Most of the time, there’s also a grab strap available. With a solid pony/horse who understands side reins, I can see this being a good step in learning.

I’ll admit, I occasionally rode my mare in side reins when I was trying to figure out the “more seat/less hands” aspect of dressage. The side reins weren’t tight, just there so Ms. Mare didn’t try to do her arab thing when I dropped my reins and worked on steering & stopping from my butt. At the time, I really couldn’t ride & chew bubble gum a the same time so I just took the reins out of the equation while I focused on what the lower half of my body was doing. It worked well as a tool for both of us but Ms. Mare was an expert at lunging w/ side reins and long lining when I did it. I certainly wouldn’t have tried it during her young & stupid phase.

[Scribbler]

@AltersAreUs

I think this is generally used with riders who wouldn’t know the first thing about fixing a leaning or connection issue and you wouldn’t want them to try. That’s like step 10 where this is used for step 2 - how not to just topple forward every time your horse moves when not on a lunge.

When I’ve seen it done, normally the kids are very raw beginners and don’t really have any contact with the reins. I mean, sure, they can do an open the door turn but there’s too much slack to really balance on them. Most of the time, there’s also a grab strap available. With a solid pony/horse who understands side reins, I can see this being a good step in learning.

I’ll admit, I occasionally rode my mare in side reins when I was trying to figure out the “more seat/less hands” aspect of dressage. The side reins weren’t tight, just there so Ms. Mare didn’t try to do her arab thing when I dropped my reins and worked on steering & stopping from my butt. At the time, I really couldn’t ride & chew bubble gum a the same time so I just took the reins out of the equation while I focused on what the lower half of my body was doing. It worked well as a tool for both of us but Ms. Mare was an expert at lunging w/ side reins and long lining when I did it. I certainly wouldn’t have tried it during her young & stupid phase.

Yes, exactly. The use of side reins for beginners assumes a training program in which side reins were and are a significant feature for the horses.

I would prefer the horse to be trained to give to the hand, not a fixed rein, which means that the horse wouldn’t be suitable later on for a kid to ride with sidereins, innocuous as that part of the equation seems.

Kids here learn to ride on a longe without side reins. I’m not sure you need to fast track them into a lesson cup competition on school masters while they are still beginner riders. I’d rather see a gutsy little tween riding her 14 hand pony independently.

[SendenHorse]

@AltersAreUs

I think this is generally used with riders who wouldn’t know the first thing about fixing a leaning or connection issue and you wouldn’t want them to try. That’s like step 10 where this is used for step 2 - how not to just topple forward every time your horse moves when not on a lunge.

When I’ve seen it done, normally the kids are very raw beginners and don’t really have any contact with the reins. I mean, sure, they can do an open the door turn but there’s too much slack to really balance on them. Most of the time, there’s also a grab strap available. With a solid pony/horse who understands side reins, I can see this being a good step in learning…

It’s possible, Manni did imply that SR were used in situations where the rider was creating connection, so it’s hard to say. That is where I raised concern. When the SR are connected at the girth, its very low, which is not the same line created by the rider’s hand. The SR works on the bars/more of a pull down. So it’s not exactly the same, as well as the rein can’t adapt to the situations as we can with our hands.

I grew up on longe horses in SR, so I get it. I just don’t prefer them for anything beyond a real beginner, and my concerns are very much due to safety (getting a leg caught, no freedom to move the head, flipping).

I prefer to alternate periods of work with stretching, maybe every 5-10 mins depending on collection/effort, so it would be interesting to know how the horses get a break in these cases. I’m not a fan of the muscling I see in those horses that are prepetually in SR. JMHO

On my own horses I prefer sliding reins that allow FDO with the neck/nose- telescoping down. That doesn’t work in straight SR

[Manni01]

@SendenHorse

It’s possible, Manni did imply that SR were used in situations where the rider was creating connection, so it’s hard to say. That is where I raised concern. When the SR are connected at the girth, its very low, which is not the same line created by the rider’s hand. The SR works on the bars/more of a pull down. So it’s not exactly the same, as well as the rein can’t adapt to the situations as we can with our hands.

I grew up on longe horses in SR, so I get it. I just don’t prefer them for anything beyond a real beginner, and my concerns are very much due to safety (getting a leg caught, no freedom to move the head, flipping).

I prefer to alternate periods of work with stretching, maybe every 5-10 mins depending on collection/effort, so it would be interesting to know how the horses get a break in these cases. I’m not a fan of the muscling I see in those horses that are prepetually in SR. JMHO

On my own horses I prefer sliding reins that allow FDO with the neck/nose- telescoping down. That doesn’t work in straight SR

Sendenhorse, maybe you actually watch the first video I posted. And I think the first minute of the video, answers all your questions and concerns perfectly.

[Manni01]

@Scribbler

Yes, exactly. The use of side reins for beginners assumes a training program in which side reins were and are a significant feature for the horses.

I would prefer the horse to be trained to give to the hand, not a fixed rein, which means that the horse wouldn’t be suitable later on for a kid to ride with sidereins, innocuous as that part of the equation seems.

Kids here learn to ride on a longe without side reins. I’m not sure you need to fast track them into a lesson cup competition on school masters while they are still beginner riders. I’d rather see a gutsy little tween riding her 14 hand pony independently.

I think it is sometimes very difficult to discuss a topic when some discussion participants have no ideas about the insides and use of the topic…
Sendenhorse assumed that I implied that she should use it (I guess maybe she should even try it you never know maybe it will be the break through for her ) because she had no idea what it is used for but made her own assumptions and you simply reject it without ever having seen it, or seen how it is used.

Did you watch the video of the regular lesson horse lesson?? did you watch the video about the lesson horse cup and then did you watch the little Girl in the Frankfurter Festhalle?? That is really the sequence you should go for.

The kids (or adults) do their lunge lessons, then they join a regular lesson program with lesson horses in side reins and and maybe even do their first tests in side reins (like the little girl) and at one point they are able to ride without them.

But at that point they are already pretty advanced. Did you see the position of the little girl?? I don’t think she really needs the side reins anymore anyhow. They are pretty loose. But for some situations it might be useful to have them.

And the safety arguments are really something I cannot understand at all… Thousands of horses and beginner riders in Germany have used them for years and I am pretty sure if it would be safety hazard they would not be allowed any more…

[Scribbler]

@Manni01

I think it is sometimes very difficult to discuss a topic when some discussion participants have no ideas about the insides and use of the topic…
Sendenhorse assumed that I implied that she should use it (I guess maybe she should even try it you never know maybe it will be the break through for her ) because she had no idea what it is used for but made her own assumptions and you simply reject it without ever having seen it, or seen how it is used.

Did you watch the video of the regular lesson horse lesson?? did you watch the video about the lesson horse cup and then did you watch the little Girl in the Frankfurter Festhalle?? That is really the sequence you should go for.

The kids (or adults) do their lunge lessons, then they join a regular lesson program with lesson horses in side reins and and maybe even do their first tests in side reins (like the little girl) and at one point they are able to ride without them.

But at that point they are already pretty advanced. Did you see the position of the little girl?? I don’t think she really needs the side reins anymore anyhow. They are pretty loose. But for some situations it might be useful to have them.

And the safety arguments are really something I cannot understand at all… Thousands of horses and beginner riders in Germany have used them for years and I am pretty sure if it would be safety hazard they would not be allowed any more…

Well, I think we can agree to disagree on this.

I prefer horses to be trained without sidereins.

If a horse is trained without sidereins obviously you can’t pop a beginner kid on him with sidereins.

I frankly don’t see the value in kids on horses that are too big for them competing in “dressage” with side reins if they can’t ride independently at that level.

I’d rather see the kid on a pony that’s an appropriate size for their leg.

[Manni01]

@Scribbler

Well, I think we can agree to disagree on this.

I prefer horses to be trained without sidereins.

If a horse is trained without sidereins obviously you can’t pop a beginner kid on him with sidereins.

I frankly don’t see the value in kids on horses that are too big for them competing in “dressage” with side reins if they can’t ride independently at that level.

I’d rather see the kid on a pony that’s an appropriate size for their leg.

I agree that we can disagree on that as well. Because it works well in Germany so there must be a reason for it…

[Angela_Freda]

@Manni01

I agree that we can disagree on that as well. Because it works well in Germany so there must be a reason for it…

Because Germany isn’t the US where any Tom, Nick , or Harry can say they are a trainer and get uneducated persons to sign up for lessons with them.
And if those Tom, Nick or Harry’s were to slap side reins on their lesson horse and teach a lesson … it would likely end VERY badly.

I thought you were more astute than this, to not be able to see why it’s a bad idea to encourage those who do not have the foundation necessary to do the lesson safely to take up a teaching practice. shrug

[Manni01]

@Angela Freda

Because Germany isn’t the US where any Tom, Nick , or Harry can say they are a trainer and get uneducated persons to sign up for lessons with them.
And if those Tom, Nick or Harry’s were to slap side reins on their lesson horse and teach a lesson … it would likely end VERY badly.

I thought you were more astute than this, to not be able to see why it’s a bad idea to encourage those who do not have the foundation necessary to do the lesson safely to take up a teaching practice. shrug

very very curious… have you ever in your life ridden with side reins?? I am not talking about lunging but about riding??

[AltersAreUs]

@Angela Freda

I thought you were more astute than this, to not be able to see why it’s a bad idea to encourage those who do not have the foundation necessary to do the lesson safely to take up a teaching practice. shrug

So did I miss Mannie saying “this is great, everyone should try this!” ? Cause I don’t remember her saying that or even implying anywhere that instructors should slapping SRs on all their ponies, whether ponies know what to do in them or not.

Seriously, everyone who’s been in favor of riding in SRs has emphasized the need to have a properly trained horse and to know how to use SRs effectively. They aren’t for everyone, just like a bosal isn’t for everyone.

[Angela_Freda]

@AltersAreUs

So did I miss Mannie saying “this is great, everyone should try this!” ? Cause I don’t remember her saying that or even implying anywhere that instructors should slapping SRs on all their ponies, whether ponies know what to do in them or not.

Seriously, everyone who’s been in favor of riding in SRs has emphasized the need to have a properly trained horse and to know how to use SRs effectively. They aren’t for everyone, just like a bosal isn’t for everyone.

I’m not sure what the point of posting about it would be, with the emphasis on how safe it is and what a fabulous foundation for lil kids it is, if not to suggest it’s a great idea that others should be smart enough to adopt…?

@Manni01

What WAS your point of sharing this wonderful teaching practice used in Germany…?

[Angela_Freda]

@Manni01

very very curious… have you ever in your life ridden with side reins?? I am not talking about lunging but about riding??

LOL no. I see it as a very bad idea that looks dangerous. It would have been especially so on the horses I primarily rode… young/green… and the last a horse who objected to ‘too much’ contact to the point of getting light up front.

[mvp]

@Manni01

And I am probably biassed because I grew up in sidereins as a child, as every other kid of my age group in Germany as well. Cant really say that it harmed me or any of the other riders. And I really believe it helps beginner riders or kids to develope an independent seat. Because there are 2 things to it. First of all you can focus on the position without worrying about how the horse carries his neck, and then it does make the horse work over his back, because the neck is in the right position for it. So the rider gets a feel for that as well before he is able to achieve this himself.

I can only say it worked very well in my Childhood and as far as I know it still works…

I like the Vienna reins set-up more than the pure side-reins, for the purpose you describe. And I do see the benefits of allowing a rider to learn how to sit on a horse who is already using his back well. I recall that being such a huge “chicken and egg” problem when I was learning to ride: How to learn to sit on a horse whose back is dropped and stiff… before I ride well enough to get him to do better! I’ll tell you what, taking a lesson in that circumstance-- where it was going to be shitty until I somehow did better was quite character-building/frustrating. I also think it delayed my learning to sit for a helluva long time.

All that is to say that I appreciate the instructor/system that puts a beginning rider on a horse who somehow gives her a better ride in his back than she can produce by herself. And so my question: Are the school horses used for this retired show horses who are “stepping down” from very good dressage training where Vienna reins alone are around to make them lift up their rib cage and give the back? I could see side reins used to no good effect if the horse has been taught a “head set” but not to also always, always lift his back.

[mvp]

@SendenHorse

It’s possible, Manni did imply that SR were used in situations where the rider was creating connection, so it’s hard to say. That is where I raised concern. When the SR are connected at the girth, its very low, which is not the same line created by the rider’s hand. The SR works on the bars/more of a pull down. So it’s not exactly the same, as well as the rein can’t adapt to the situations as we can with our hands.

Frankly, I don’t know whether Manni meant that side reins (and really, Vienna reins in the video) alone would create connection (in the fullest, “through” and using his back sense of the word) or not. In fact, that’s why I asked the question about how these schoolmaster lesson horses were trained prior.

To be clear: No one, not even the OP, was talking about any riders or training other than helping little newbies learn to develop a seat. IMO, it’s not fair to read the OP otherwise and then make any criticism. And, again, I say this as someone taught in the US without the benefit of having a horse who was “using his back” to learn on. Really, I think not learning to sit early in one’s riding career contributes (along with other things) to making the average American rider less able and articulate with the seat, and more of a hand-rider or gadget fiend. JMHO.

[McGurk]

I will give an example of how this technique might be useful.

I was bringing along a horse with a huge trot that frankly, I could not sit. And I was starting to retard his gait to something I could sit, which would have been disastrous if allowed to continue. So I signed myself up for dressage boot camp with my favorite instructor. She had a nice DWB gelding, showing/confirmed at second, starting to show at third, that also was a big mover through his back. And a total sweetheart.

The first dozen or so lessons of my boot camp were on a lunge line, with side reins and a grab strap, just learning to sit his big trot and really feeling the difference between working trot and medium and riding the transition with only my seat. No point in my holding the reins until I truly learned to follow his back.

The side reins were a reminder to him to stay in a working frame, regardless of what the idiot on his back was doing. And all I had to do was focus on my seat; maybe a little bit on maintaining gait, but he was a nice, forward mover.

It was a very big deal when I “graduated” to riding him sitting, off the lunge line, with no side reins and could maintain a nice working trot sitting.

Had I not done the lunge line/side reins first, it would have been very frustrating for me, abusive to the horse and would have taken much, much longer.

I seriously doubt, however, that the instructor just slapped the side reins on for the first time before my first lesson. He was obviously accustomed to them and knew the drill.

[Manni01]

https://www.facebook.com/pocl.msk/videos/1463323647114296/ This is an inspiring video!!!

[Scribbler]

@mvp

Frankly, I don’t know whether Manni meant that side reins (and really, Vienna reins in the video) alone would create connection (in the fullest, “through” and using his back sense of the word) or not. In fact, that’s why I asked the question about how these schoolmaster lesson horses were trained prior.

To be clear: No one, not even the OP, was talking about any riders or training other than helping little newbies learn to develop a seat. IMO, it’s not fair to read the OP otherwise and then make any criticism. And, again, I say this as someone taught in the US without the benefit of having a horse who was “using his back” to learn on. Really, I think not learning to sit early in one’s riding career contributes (along with other things) to making the average American rider less able and articulate with the seat, and more of a hand-rider or gadget fiend. JMHO.

I wonder how this applies to British riders who also don’t typically learn to ride in sidereins?

Also with these kids in the video, are we seeing the average German rider or an elite riding school? The true average American probably doesn’t get much in the way of quality lessons at a young age. And because riding is relatively affordable at least in smaller communities there are lots of self taught riders out there.

[Cat_Tap]

Learning to ride with side reins is part of a strict, established german method that has obviously worked for them… This does not mesh with the free wheeling North American mentality where many can keep a horse in their backyard, put some tack on it and ride from the seat of their pants.