I was talking about being loose in an arena. There are still ways to get stuck.
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I think I understood what you were saying. But if you watch this video https://www.facebook.com/Hessenschau…2204662497817/ you see several kids being loose in an arena with side reins and there are no problems…
I can see that growing up in a different system can make you look different at things, but I am not sure why you blame me for my opinion…
I showed a system which worked very successful for many years.
You tell me its not safe to do so and you would never do it. Thats ok if it is your opinion but don’t expect me to agree with that…
I read your previous post about types of side reins, and I pretty much agree, though have seen people refer to sliding side reins as Vienna reins, so there is some variation in terminology. (I equate Vienna reins to sliding side reins, and “German draw reins” to what you describe as Vienna reins.) That being said, for my horse, whose tendency is towards BTV, I would choose a sliding side rein always over a fixed one. (This is something that is about 99% fixed under saddle, just every once in a while when he gets tense he’ll duck behind the contact.) For this reason, he is almost never longed. When the need arises, I long-line him, or at a show (where only straight side reins are allowed) I just longe him with nothing if he needs to be longed at all. (Sometimes on the first day of the show.) If I put him in straight side reins he just goes BTV and stays there. And he is a purpose bred warmblood (though with a decent amount of blood).
So in general, I prefer a sliding side rein. They’re better for a horse who is prone to hang or a horse who is prone to get behind the vertical/too light.
Normal side reins can be useful for horses who tend to be pretty straightforward and easy in the contact. I also had a mare with contact issues, her evasion of choice was just to run around above the bit, a combination of longeing in side reins, sliding side reins, and riding once in a while in draw reins helped her re-muscle nicely.
I admit that I pretty much will not use them while riding, was brought up being told it was dangerous, and I can certainly see that being the case.
I have ridden in sliding side reins on one horse who had a specific problem that they addressed very well, and had a student ride a similar horse in them for a little while. Never on a horse who has even the hint of getting light in front. I have taken longe lessons on solid schoolmasters using either straight or sliding side reins.
Just my experiences and preferences.
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Please stop telling us to go watch the videos you posted again. I have watched them. Watching more of the same, because there was no incident, is not going to change my mind. And for the record, I have used side reins extensively, so please stop with the holier than thou bit about people never using them citing sources who never used them. Again, different ways to skin a cat.
Now, for those of us who truly care about the side reins nuances, how do you guys go about working with horses who get BTV and tend to over curl from the base of the neck? My mare does this and while I have some ideas that have worked, any more suggestions would be fabulous.
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So do you want my opinion about the horse which gets BTV?? I recently helped a neighbor of mine who had exactly that problem and she was happy with my help… but of course all horses are different. So it might not be right for your horse
Side reins are traditionally used to teach the horse that contact can be comforting, be able to move through gaits in balance or to keep the more experienced horse in gait on the longe (in a caversson) for the rider to learn an independent seat under the guidance of a trainer at the end of the line. It is a tool for the horse and not the rider. I don’t agree with putting green or young riders in a setup off the longe with side reins.
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You keep posting this video and accusing people of not watching it. I watched it. I see zero benefit from the use of sidereins on every single horse. Not a single horse has contact with the sidereins and I don’t really see any of them rooting down or trying to pull the reins loose, which would be a good use for sidereins. I think it’s a failing as an instructor to slap the exact same tack on every single horse for no reason. Kind of like how every horse goes in a standing martingale if it needs it or not.
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My whole post was about my own experiences, but you seemed to have missed that. I think you just want a fight with me at this point.
I also said “This is my experience you don’t have to do this”, but you seem to have a real problem with me. I don’t have any issues with you besides the fact this is not an open dialog, it’s very heavy handed towards your preferences.
Side note: all of these three SR types are used in classical German dressage, that is why I was a bit shocked you have no experince with them.
That is ok, just admit what you don’t know. No one cares.
Also, I never ride with SR, martingales, or anything “strap like”, so my discussions is all for longing.
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GPjumper,
For a horse that tended to curl; first, I would take the SR off for a while and go back to work in hand, ground driving and lunging, so I could really monitor and encourage forward into the contact and push forward the second the horse drops behind. Once I felt that there was a change on the ground, under saddle I would do a lot of spiral in/spiral out, pushing onto the outside rein. I really like the technique of giving the inside rein while pushing inside leg to outside rein to persuade the horse that the connection on the outside rein is a good thing.
A horse that curls needs to be persuaded that contact is comforting and helpful, that while it may mean working harder, it also means balance and security.
I would also search for the most comfortable and mildest bit the horse could safely go in so as to give no physical reason for backing off/going behind.
I would also be extremely careful about who rode this horse, and under what circumstances. It’s a very hard resistance to overcome once it becomes established.
But I may not know what I am talking about. 
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How did you fix it?
No, horses are not that different, things occur for a few big picture reasons: tempo issues and straightness issues. BTV is a symptom.
It’s usually loss of the shoulder or lowering of the sternum. At time it can be due to being over or under tempo.
SF is my go-to first step for BTV work.
So not addressing how a rein impedes the shoulder is why I said putting a side rein on a BTV horse is a disater, it prevents lateral suppleness and makes it worse. you literally have a rein pushing on a shoulder…
SR acts down and back (on the poll, bit and bars even when the horse is forward), this is what you need to prevent by doing a shoulder fore. Look at the way the neck comes out over the poll. Only a small % can keep a horse from going poll low/C3 high.
I don’t care why you do a program Manni …I’m frustrated that you attack since you aren’t able to describe that program very well or how these SR work on classical framework.
Double longing a BTV horse allows for real time adjustment and monitoring of the shoulders through feel on the reins.
We both are classical german you know, but I’m just a stupid American from Colorado, what do I know.
How do your straight side reins work in your program? how does it act on the body?
You ride 4th level, come on let’s talk! this shouldn’t be so hard
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Just took a snip from the whole post. I very much agree with this statement because my PRE had/has a tendency to be BTV. Now, it’s not really an issue for us due to training and strength. Someone had suggested that I longe him in sidereins and really push him forward, but this horse has the true talent of being able to move his body quickly while still managing to be BTV. His conformation enables that a bit. The long lining (and other things under saddle) have worked out well for him. He was so light and BTV at times, but now I think he MAY be able to take to side reins better as he stretches into the contact.
For my WB static contact of side reins was good for him, for my PRE, not so much.
The other thing that I don’t understand is the longierhilfe if we want to open discussion to other devices. Yes it makes the horse travel with a low head but I also see the horse getting banged in the mouth each time the front leg completes a step. Just not a device for me/my horse.
These are just my opinions/experiences.
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]"the rider needs to learn to ride.
A huge safety risk- a horse can easily torque his neck if he trips, catch a leg, etc. I hope they are at least breakaway? I have some, they are really great.
I grew up in the german system, but these days I prefer not to use SR and have a more dynamic feel. Double longing and flexions are much better to create throughness."
Remember that was your first post in this thread… You tried to finish the ongoing discussion by saying “the rider needs to learn how to ride”.
With this senctence you ignored the whole previous ongoing discussion… You tried to switch the topic from using side reins for teaching young and unexperienced riders to the lunging part.
Then you quoted a link which said this 
“At the Spanish Riding School, tradition has it that sidereins have always been used for lungeing and to a certain extent for long reining. How and why they do so is out of my sphere of knowledge since I did not attend the school, so I will not go into it. But for those of us not attending the school, this is really nothing to much consider using for any purpose.”
if you believe in something like this its impossible to discuss with you. That author rejected any existing gadget, and although I even agreed with many things he wrote, I think the part about side reins was pretty ridiculous… and remember this topic is about side reins, so if you quote something like this don’t expect me to take you serious…
And you may be a classical German rider, I don’t know because you are too private to ever post any pictures or videos… and great that you grew up in the German System… Where did you live in Germany???
I don’t see how Senden’s first post on your thread in this instance is a personal attack. She posted her opinion, that riders should learn to ride and not rely on side reins, and that side reins should be used on the lunge.
Why start a thread if you aren’t interested in anyone else’s opinions? Plenty of people have watched the videos and given their own view.
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See, this was something I agree totally with… I believe horses who go BTV lost trust in the hands of the rider for whatever reason (with my neighbor we found the reason for it very easy…) They are not only tight in the neck (because they go BTV with a tight neck) but also tight in the back. So I would lunge the horse without anything and only try to keep the back active. With my neighbors horse it was amazing as soon as the back loosened up, the neck became longer. And then I would introduce very long side reins in order to give the horse the chance for a connection without taking the growing trust away. While doing this, I still focus on the back to keep it active.
If that looks well, I would get on the horse and try to maintain the same active back without any pulling on the reins… I would trot forward until I feel that the horse stretches forward and keeps his nose in front of the vertical. Of course there is a lot of praising and rewarding involved to tell the horse that everything is going well… Also any transition is very very important… Even more important then usually. Because the walk trot transition is the moment where the horse has to lift the back… If you maintain this moment in the trot you will have no problem with the horse going BTV…
And then you just go from there whatever the horse offers you.
With the horse of my neigbor we got there in 2 sessions and she was totally impressed… I think now she knows a lot more what to do and what not to do…
But thats only my limited experience as a non horseman…
For my BTV mare (she’s coming 7), I took off everything touching the bit and added the equicore concept bands around her but and stomach. Really having to lift and be reminded to push under helped her learn her own balance. Since she could be fussy with the contact, I used a cavesson and left nothing on the bit so she could figure out her own balance. This stage really helped to unlock her shoulder. Once she was stronger, I added an elastic side reins to the outside only and attached the lunge line to the inside bit ring. This gave me the ability to use the line a bit like the inside rein. The side rein gave her the contact and she able to understand it’s supportive nature. This is how she lunges and is very happy. I tried to go back to two side reins but she became claustrophobic and started ducking BTV again. Since I can’t use the therapy bands at shows, I usually lunge with just a bridle and let her get her sillies out. The rest of the relaxation work is done under saddle. I love picking other’s brains about the topic because there are so many methods. While they might not work for the one I have now, it always wise to expand the tool box.
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Either she missed completely the purpose of the thread or it was an attack… The thread was not about lunging but about using sidereins for young and/or unexperienced riders WITHOUT the lunge…
Maybe you should watch it again… You missed the purpose of side reins in this video… The side reins are not supposed to tie the horse together… They are supposed to be loose if the horse goes in the correct frame… They are supposed to support the rider if the horse decides that it wants to lift the neck and do something else. Usually then a weaker rider runs into problems. The side reins will prevent the horse from doing this and so the rider does not need to pull…
AGAIN, threads can take on a life of their own. Someone changing the subject isn’t personally attacking you. Even if they have in the past.
You can’t dictate that a thread is only to be about using side reins while riding. It can shoot off to using sidereins while lunging, or ground driving, or why using them while riding is or is not a crutch. If you admonish everyone who disagrees with your opinion then don’t start a thread! These are horse people and they all have opinions about what is or is not appropriate.
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if she wasn’t attacking me, she missed the purpose of the thread…
I’m not going to watch the video again. I watched it twice and I formulated my own opinion about what the side reins were doing and I shared my opinion with you. As I stated, I would consider using side reins for a beginner rider based on the needs of the rider and the way of going of the horse and what needed to be achomplished. To simply slap them on every single horse is lazy.
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