regarding side reins

[McGurk]

My point was much more general, and really doesn’t have much to do with anyone’s specific history or resume.

My point was that they are a useful tool for certain horses and certain situations (I gave an example), but they are NOT a one size fits all, universal tool.

Now, I’ll allow, if you’re in program that’s entirely built on the German system and using purpose bred dressage horses, they are MORE likely to be a useful tool.

But still not universal, still not one size fits all, especially not when you expand the audience to all horses and less than classically educated riders.

[Manni01]

@McGurk

My point was much more general, and really doesn’t have much to do with anyone’s specific history or resume.

My point was that they are a useful tool for certain horses and certain situations (I gave an example), but they are NOT a one size fits all, universal tool.

Now, I’ll allow, if you’re in program that’s entirely built on the German system and using purpose bred dressage horses, they are MORE likely to be a useful tool.

But still not universal, still not one size fits all, especially not when you expand the audience to all horses and less than classically educated riders.

then why did you mention that I would not give up Warmbloods for OTTB´s ??? What was the use of that??

And no I don’t agree with the bolded part…

I mentioned it before, side reins are a tool. If you know how to use that tool you are fine… If not it doesn’t matter what type of horse you have… That is my personal opinion based on many years of using side reins… And of course you can use it for TB´s… why shouldn’t you, if you know what you are doing…

[GPjumper]

@Manni01

then why did you mention that I would not give up Warmbloods for OTTB´s ??? What was the use of that??

And no I don’t agree with the bolded part…

I mentioned it before, side reins are a tool. If you know how to use that tool you are fine… If not it doesn’t matter what type of horse you have… That is my personal opinion based on many years of using side reins… And of course you can use it for TB´s… why shouldn’t you, if you know what you are doing…

Because there are some horses who would literally flip themselves in even the loosest side reins. I know of several who were not started or trained properly and the use of side reins just makes them more defensive. Other put their heads in a fake place, drop their backs and run.

This is what makes the difference between a horseman and someone trained in a specific program. The horseman has many tools in the tool box to teach and help the horse understand. Someone trained in a specific program can only use that program and isn’t equipped for horses that need a horseman to think outside the box. Just because it is the German way, does not make it right for EVERY single horse.

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

Perfect, I really look forward to not have to read personal posts with wrong assumptions about me any more… I support your personal ignore button!!!

And about your pros and cons… are you talking about lunging or riding?? you need to be more precise… Also don’t forget. Its only a tool as part of a riding program… If a horse goes BTV it has nothing to do with a side rein but with the riding… Its an additional tool, not a program…

First, I do not fully understand your post here, but I will answer the best that i can. A specific type of side rein will encourage or discourage certain things in the horse based on how that sepcific rein attaches, and how it exerts pressure. You can be the most perfect rider (or longer) but the SR is working against you, leverage always always wins. It makes no difference in the rein actions if it’s on the horse, as long as we are talking about fixed points, which you are in your OP. The dynamic action of HOLDING the draw rein allows for more stretch, and it’s incrementally “less bad” but for clairty I’ll stick with your use of fixed reins.

Of course it is part of a program, this is a side rein thread so I am only discussing the choices available and why I decide on a specific one.

I wonder if you have ever used these, care to expand on my ideas?

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

then why did you mention that I would not give up Warmbloods for OTTB´s ??? What was the use of that??

And no I don’t agree with the bolded part…

I mentioned it before, side reins are a tool. If you know how to use that tool you are fine… If not it doesn’t matter what type of horse you have… That is my personal opinion based on many years of using side reins… And of course you can use it for TB´s… why shouldn’t you, if you know what you are doing…

It doesn’t matter what type of horse you have?
Really?
Specifically, do you only use straight side reins? On every horse?

There are the three main classes as I said, all are “side reins”. Please be more clear with what rein style you mean. It makes a HUGE difference.

[McGurk]

then why did you mention that I would not give up Warmbloods for OTTB´s ??? What was the use of that??

Guilty as charged!

I did assume that your riding and training experience had been mostly on warmbloods (not that you have never worked with TBs, but that warmbloods made up the bulk of your experience.)

So if that was incorrect, my apologies.

I do know you have some very nice, purpose bred warmbloods now, so I think it was reasonable to assume you are not going to suddenly make a change to OTTBs. Unless you thought it would be fun to take a simple and straightforward training process and make it long and difficult.

But I will still stand by my main point - SR are a great tool. A useful tool. I have used them with success.

But my opinion is that they are NOT a universal, one size fits all tool. And that it’s a mistake to use them on certain horses with certain training problems.

You may disagree with the opinion, that’s fine. Based on your training and riding experience, they may have universal application. Based on mine, they do not.

[Manni01]

@SendenHorse

It doesn’t matter what type of horse you have?
Really?
Specifically, do you only use straight side reins? On every horse?

There are the three main classes as I said, all are “side reins”. Please be more clear with what rein style you mean. It makes a HUGE difference.

I thought you were ignoring me??? did not last long And no it doesn’t… If I have a horse which I think needs side reins for lunging, I use them…

And based on what I have seen during my life I only use side reins… That is my personal opinion because I know how they work. I don’t like vienna reins or anything else… For me they are too wobbly…

[Manni01]

@GPjumper

Because there are some horses who would literally flip themselves in even the loosest side reins. I know of several who were not started or trained properly and the use of side reins just makes them more defensive. Other put their heads in a fake place, drop their backs and run.

This is what makes the difference between a horseman and someone trained in a specific program. The horseman has many tools in the tool box to teach and help the horse understand. Someone trained in a specific program can only use that program and isn’t equipped for horses that need a horseman to think outside the box. Just because it is the German way, does not make it right for EVERY single horse.

if you think so… as I said before, side reins are a tool which need to be used properly… The breed doesn’t matter. Now you are talking about something different and I agree, if the horse is in such a horrible state that it flips over (poor horse ) then I wouldn’t use them either… But that has only to do with training and not with the breed…

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

I thought you were ignoring me??? did not last long And no it doesn’t… If I have a horse which I think needs side reins for lunging, I use them…

And based on what I have seen during my life I only use side reins… That is my personal opinion because I know how they work. I don’t like vienna reins or anything else… For me they are too wobbly…

I am trying to have a conversation about SR.

Side reins- what kind are you talking about? You don’t seem to get there are 3 classes of 'side reins".
This might be a good start to understand the mechanics and why certain breeds/styles/personalities need different things. Remember we have to take into account the psycology of the horse and how that horse interacts with the bit.

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php

you are just saying the same thing over and over Manni, I’m trying to dig deeper.

[Manni01]

@McGurk

Guilty as charged!

I did assume that your riding and training experience had been mostly on warmbloods (not that you have never worked with TBs, but that warmbloods made up the bulk of your experience.)

So if that was incorrect, my apologies.

I do know you have some very nice, purpose bred warmbloods now, so I think it was reasonable to assume you are not going to suddenly make a change to OTTBs. Unless you thought it would be fun to take a simple and straightforward training process and make it long and difficult.

But I will still stand by my main point - SR are a great tool. A useful tool. I have used them with success.

But my opinion is that they are NOT a universal, one size fits all tool. And that it’s a mistake to use them on certain horses with certain training problems.

You may disagree with the opinion, that’s fine. Based on your training and riding experience, they may have universal application. Based on mine, they do not.

I had a thread here on COTH about an OTTB I rode for a while. He was very very nice. I liked him a lot… And one of my Warmbloods is more like a TB… She has a lot of TBs in her pedigree, one of them was a German Derby winner… I love TBs and I would get one any time. I think they are great to ride and to train.

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

if you think so… as I said before, side reins are a tool which need to be used properly… The breed doesn’t matter. Now you are talking about something different and I agree, if the horse is in such a horrible state that it flips over (poor horse ) then I wouldn’t use them either… But that has only to do with training and not with the breed…

isn’t this the same post from page 3? can you please expand?

[Manni01]

@SendenHorse

I am trying to have a conversation about SR.

Side reins- what kind are you talking about? You don’t seem to get there are 3 classes of 'side reins".
This might be a good start to understand the mechanics and why certain breeds/styles/personalities need different things. Remember we have to take into account the psycology of the horse and how that horse interacts with the bit.

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php

you are just saying the same thing over and over Manni, I’m trying to dig deeper.

go ahead and dig… nobody is keeping you from it…

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

I had a thread here on COTH about an OTTB I rode for a while. He was very very nice. I liked him a lot… And one of my Warmbloods is more like a TB… She has a lot of TBs in her pedigree, one of them was a German Derby winner… I love TBs and I would get one any time. I think they are great to ride and to train.

so you put a TB in the same exact program as a WB?

[SendenHorse]

@Manni01

go ahead and dig… nobody is keeping you from it…

I’m digging for answers to my questions and going to a more advanced level of understanding of SR… You never answered anything!

Does anyone else care to add how they use these various kinds of side reins?

[SendenHorse]

Twilight Zone…dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Clearly a waste of an otherwise good thread. I enjoy this topic, I’ll catch you later when you actually want to talk about dressage.

[Manni01]

@SendenHorse

I’m digging for answers to my questions and going to a more advanced level of understanding of SR… You never answered anything!

Does anyone else care to add how they use these various kinds of side reins?

I recommend for you to read the link you posted… Great information for you… (written by somebody who never used the gadgets ) I prefer to rely on my experiences and on what I see used in reality…

[Manni01]

@SendenHorse

Twilight Zone…dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Clearly a waste of an otherwise good thread. I enjoy this topic, I’ll catch you later when you actually want to talk about dressage.

Congrats you are doing a great job as always

[Manni01]

And to clarify this… It is not easy to discuss something with people who have no idea what they are talking about and who have never used it themselves and then even cite sources about it, written by somebody who has never used it either…

[GPjumper]

I feel like these threads are pointless. Manni, you seem to only want everyone to agree with you etc. I was started on a school pony on the lunge in side reins. Was it beneficial? Absolutely, you know what else was? Galloping horses xc, jumping ahead and getting slammed, going out and doing it out of the safe bubble. There are different ways to skin this cat. I’ve had sensitive babies that hated side reins (any longing gadget really) and only learned to stretch over the backs correctly using the equicore bands and NOTHING attached to their faces. I’ve started everything from race horses to hunters/jumpers to dressage horses. The BEST way to start ANY horse is not them figuring out a gadget, but me figuring out how to communicate with them. Germany has a very specific program, both for bringing horses and riders along and for breeding horses for that program. There is a huge difference between working with an ex race horse and one who has been started and aimed at dressage from the get go. Aside from riding on the longe line in side reins, I was taught that you never go free around the arena in them, especially with a rider on their backs. Too much room for error, too much of a risk of them getting stuck on something. So yes, I disagree with you. I am allowed to, and that doesn’t give you the right to be condescending as you have done to others. IMO, if a kid can’t ride a horse without the safety of the side reins, then those kids do not belong riding those horses off the longe line. You can look down on my trainers all you want, but I have yet to be steered wrong by those who were real horseman.

[Manni01]

@GPjumper

I feel like these threads are pointless. Manni, you seem to only want everyone to agree with you etc. I was started on a school pony on the lunge in side reins. Was it beneficial? Absolutely, you know what else was? Galloping horses xc, jumping ahead and getting slammed, going out and doing it out of the safe bubble. There are different ways to skin this cat. I’ve had sensitive babies that hated side reins (any longing gadget really) and only learned to stretch over the backs correctly using the equicore bands and NOTHING attached to their faces. I’ve started everything from race horses to hunters/jumpers to dressage horses. The BEST way to start ANY horse is not them figuring out a gadget, but me figuring out how to communicate with them. Germany has a very specific program, both for bringing horses and riders along and for breeding horses for that program. There is a huge difference between working with an ex race horse and one who has been started and aimed at dressage from the get go. Aside from riding on the longe line in side reins, I was taught that you never go free around the arena in them, especially with a rider on their backs. Too much room for error, too much of a risk of them getting stuck on something. So yes, I disagree with you. I am allowed to, and that doesn’t give you the right to be condescending as you have done to others. IMO, if a kid can’t ride a horse without the safety of the side reins, then those kids do not belong riding those horses off the longe line. You can look down on my trainers all you want, but I have yet to be steered wrong by those who were real horseman.

No problem. I disagree with you as well… If you watched the videos, you can see why regarding the bolded part of your post…
I would never use them for jumping or on trail rides, only in a arena.