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Rehoming a dangerous horse

Horse Care
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#1

Hi there- I am desperate for advice on rehoming my dangerous mare. This has been something that I have been thinking over for months and I am at a loss on what to do next. Im sorry this is long, but I am desperate.

First and foremost, I do not want to send my horse somewhere where she will injure someone and/or where she will be beaten. I just want to see if anyone has any thoughts, opinions, or just some word of encouragement.

A little history of the horse- She’s approximately 11 years old, percheron/tb and I have owned her for the past 4 and a half years. I purchased her from a family friend, and the first two weeks of owning her were great. She’s incredibly calm under saddle-she jumps anything, loves water, trail rides, and packs around little kids. Her old owners said that she was a PMU foal, they bought her when she was about a year old, and that they do not know anything about her prior to that. When I went out to try her, she was great on the ground and in the saddle. About two weeks of having her at my place, she ended up biting me pretty badly in the arm- I was brushing her off while she was munching on her hay. I figured it was my fault and she was just a bit sour. About 4 months later, she bit me again, completely out of nowhere. After discussing in length with her previous owners about what she was like when they had her, I found out that she sent someone to the hospital once and that they ended up carrying around PVC pipe to scare her off. She has never been unsound or crabby while riding, she will just randomly become violent on the ground.

For the past four years, I have tried everything I can think of and can afford. I have tried Depo and regumate, she has been tested and treated for EMP, she has been treated for ulcers, we have tested her for cushings and lyme- both negatives, and we has tested for hormone imbalances and ovarian tumors. As far as ridding and training, Ive given her weeks off at a time and then ridden her multiple days in a row, we have tried clicker training and a more firm approach. I have really looked into what I could be doing wrong, and I know I’m flawed, but I just don’t seem how I could be causing so many problems that were present before I even met her.

Like I said above, I do not want to give her to someone that she is going to end up injuring or being beaten for her behavior. But I also haven’t been able to justify that putting her down is the only option-since she is so great under saddle. However, I am in school and cannot afford to pay for her, school, and myself at this moment in my life. I have tried my hardest to keep her in my possession because I know her so well and I know she is being treated kindly, but I am at my whits end with this horse and don’t know where to go from here. It breaks my heart to have to part with her, she has been my best friend for the past 4 and a half years, so I want to do right by her and do the most humane thing I can.

If anyone has any advice, I will greatly appreciate it and thank you tons in advanced.

#2

Either put her down or find a suitable retirement situation where she is turned out and not handled except by you. Don’t make this someone else’s problem. You’ve given her what sounds like a great 4 years, which is much more than I or most people would do with the horse. Putting her down is much better than having her hurt someone badly or running through the slaughter pipeline.

#3

Does she only bite? Honestly that wouldn’t bother me much and I think a lot of adult riders would be able to handle this problem. I wouldn’t sell her to a Pony Clubber but a responsible experienced adult shouldn’t have an issue with it. A lot of horses bite. I know a few who are muzzled on occasion even, like when the vet comes or when an unfamiliar person grooms them or handles them or at shows when there is an idiot buffet. Is she nice enough that that kind of rider would be interested in her? It’s really not that big a deal.

For example you mention grooming her while she was eating. That’s the kind of thing I never, ever, ever do. I always halter and tie or secure a horse before doing anything with them and I never do anything in their stalls when they have food. Most of the kinds of horses I’ve been around can be expected to not behave under those circumstances. So what seems dangerous to you might not be to someone with a different background or expectations for a horse.

#4

Is it a single bite where she makes contact and then back off to make a statement or is she coming after you and not backing down?

#5

You describe biting. What do you mean by “randomly violent on the ground.”? If it’s something other than biting, I think you should put her down. That is the most humane thing you can do for her if she would be handled by other people, including vets and farriers or trimmers.

This is hard. But passing her along to someone else isn’t doing right by her.

So sorry.

#6

Have you seen the documentary “Buck”? If not I highly recommend it. There is one horse in the documentary. It was an orphaned foal that was bottle fed in the owners kitchen (if I am remembering correctly) and kept intact. The horse was crazy dangerous and they were able to work with it a bit on day one of the clinic, but on day 2 it viscously attacked. Buck recommended that they put the horse down and that the imprinting that the horse had as an orphan foal f-'d him up.

#7

[QUOTE=snowrider;8532170]
Does she only bite? Honestly that wouldn’t bother me much and I think a lot of adult riders would be able to handle this problem. I wouldn’t sell her to a Pony Clubber but a responsible experienced adult shouldn’t have an issue with it. A lot of horses bite. I know a few who are muzzled on occasion even, like when the vet comes or when an unfamiliar person grooms them or handles them or at shows when there is an idiot buffet. Is she nice enough that that kind of rider would be interested in her? It’s really not that big a deal[/QUOTE]

Maybe the OP can elaborate more on the biting, but it think it’s sufficient to say that it’s a serious problem since the previous owners are not disclosing that the horse sent someone to the hospital.

Snowrider, I disagree with your recommendation to simply find someone who will tolerate the biting. This is a horse with a known, documented history of biting. This owner no longer wants to deal with it, so suppose she finds an ambitious and strong willed adult amateur who is willing take in the behavior and brings it to a facility where it bites an injures another boarder or employee? Or that new owner needs to sell for whatever reason and now the dangerous horse falls into new hands. The OP could do the right thing and be honest and up front about the problem, but what happens when the next owner tries to ditch the horse fast and doesn’t disclose it? Or the horse goes through an auction with ho history? The hard part about dangerous horses is that they get passed around and suffer in the process.

I speak as someone who was seriously hurt as a result of a horse bite. I walked out into the pasture to get another horse and was picked up by my shoulder and tossed to the ground by a horse that I never saw coming. He ran across the pasture and bit me. I was wearing many layers under my winter jacket and still have a scar. That horse (affectionately known as Jaws from them on) continued to have intermittent biting issues, aggressive lunging biting episodes. The barn owner did her best to accommodate him, private turn out and only handled by certain barn staff. That horse went on to bite 5 more people (including his owner) over several years before the barn owner said he could only stay if the owner did self care. It was too great a liability knowing he had this aggressive tendency that would come and go, sometimes years with no biting. The owner decided to being him home and he lived in a field with a shed so he wasn’t handled.

Biting is serious, especially when it comes from what I assume is a large horse, TB/Percheron. I feel so sorry for you OP since it sounds like out have a lovely horse under saddle, but that is too dangerous to hold on to. Is there any hope of finding a retirement/rough board option where she can live outside and only be handled by you?

#8

I am an experienced adult amateur.

If the horse is gold under saddle, I would be interested in such a horse but would need more information about the biting. If it a random bite here and there, I think I would be willing to work with that. Actually, my current horse is a bit grumpy and will bite here and there. However, if the biting is VERY aggressive, or accompanied by charging in a paddock, that would be a different story.

However, I would not be interested in buying such a horse. Depending on the severity of the issue rehoming with full disclosure to an appropriate home might be the best course of action. In that case, I would consider a first right of refusal or some kind of buy back clause so that if the new owner cannot keep her, or the problem becomes worse, the horse can be put to sleep and not be passed around to unknowing owners.

#9

honestly, if we are talking biting, and only twice in the four years you’ve had her, i would not say she is a rogue or dangerous horse. i would say she is a rude one.

i wouldn’t be talking euthanasia just yet. if your finances can afford it, i’d send her to someone who is experienced with this type of horse on training or consignment - disclose she bites and that is the reason you are selling her. be honest and truthful with the trainer about both of your shortcomings and experience and list her on the market. good luck!

IMHO i would take a biter over a kicker any and every day.

#10

Is she a big girl? Pushy at all? Any hope of retraining her would involve a further investment of time and money, and carefully putting her with the right person to sort out her triggers. Does she do it when being lead or only when being groomed? Tacked up?

I remember reading stories about bad biters being triggered into biting a scalding hot baked potato to give them a serious reason to rethink pulling that stunt, but some would likely call that cruel these days.

Another thought would be to muzzle her at all times during handling if she’s not likely to go after you while bitting her up and such. The muzzle only comes off when it’s time to put on the bridle and immediately goes back on, when the bridle comes off. It would take discipline and attention to detail. Like remembering to do it first thing before going into her stall for any reason. I personally demand to be able to go into any of my horses’ stalls at any time and do anything I feel it’s necessary to do, and I don’t care if they are eating. I give them a good life and they have to be respectful if they want to stay. If any of them start with the don’t bother me now crap, it’s on and a come to jesus meeting is had about who is really in charge of things, and it’s not them.

I would have to really, really trust anyone I placed the mare with that they could handle her; that and a contract that she be returned to you and not just passed down the line, because as you’ve already figured out, she’s a prime candidate for that.

If she’s big and athletic and would make a good field hunter, as in quiet and trustyworth once someone’s in the tack, you might see if you can find a savy foxhunter who might be interested in taking her on. I had a big TB cross gelding who had a really shitty attitude and would charge you in the field and then spin and kick out at you. He’d even reach out over the stall door and lunge at you as if to bite when walking by. Did I mention he had a shitty attitude? He was just trying to scare you off and if you stood your ground and ignored his nonsense, he was fine. But for someone wanting a big pet and a buddy, he was terrible. Fortunately, I sent him out to a foxhunter to see if he was game to run with hounds and he seemed to really like it. He was still a dickhead in the field, but did his job as a foxhunter great. He was picked up by the barn manager at the time for the Midland Hounds who sought out big sound mounts for various riders of the club, and placed him with one of the guy riders who was good to his horses and didn’t care so much about attitude as long as they did their job. From what I understand, they got on well together. I didn’t make a lot of money on the horse but I was up front about his attitude and didn’t have to give him away. So there are alternatives to just putting her down.

However, if she really is that ugly and unmanageable, the kindest thing, on many levels, might really be to put her down and move on. Biting bad enough to put someone in the hospital or leave scars is pretty serious, and not to mention a liability.

#11

How violent is violent?

My first mare would bite, but didn’t attack you. A little like FatCat’s gelding.

BTW, I don’t think it matters that an 11 yro horse, bought as a yearling was a PMU colt. That was a LONG time ago.

#12

[QUOTE=beowulf;8532415]
honestly, if we are talking biting, and only twice in the four years you’ve had her, i would not say she is a rogue or dangerous horse. i would say she is a rude one…[/QUOTE]

This. I feel like we aren’t getting some piece of information in this puzzle. As it’s described, it sounds like the OP has experienced two isolated incidences of aggressive biting in four years of ownership. Nothing to laugh about, but based on that, I also would not be lamenting euthanasia yet, either.

#13

If a horse is truly dangerous, euthanasia s better than passing the problem to someone else. Even if that someone else can deal with the issues, you would have no guarantee that the next person wouldn’t pass the horse along to a dealer/killbuyer at some future point. There truly are some horses that are so mentally NQR that they are dangerous. Human safety takes precedence, or should.

#14

I used to own a biter. I knew it when I bought him. He was great under saddle. He was great if you had a hold of him. So as long as you had a bridle on him or a halter and leadrope you were good.
He would run you down in the field and was very territorial in his stall. If you needed to adjust his blankets you put him on the crossties or snubbed him to the wall in his stall. You NEVER turned took your eyes off of him when you filled his water in his stall.
If you wanted to get the mare out of the field he was turned out in, you took out the wiffle ball bat. He knew what it was for and the mare did not.
When he was used in a lesson program the instructor haltered him, put on a muzzle and put him in cross ties.
At shows he was totally different and a very nice horse to handle even from the ground.
I eventually sold him to a young girl. He LOVED her. Would gallop across the field to meet her bus. He then eventually went to her trainer as a lesson horse and they loved him there.
I don’t know what changed.
The reason I got him was he was sold once to a 12 year old and he would chase her out of the stall. He went to my friend’s farm when I bought him, until he tried to run her down in the field. I moved him to my trainer’s farm. So I don’t think it was the management at the farm I was at.

A horse like this can be okay in the right situation. They need to be consistently handled and you always need to be aware when you are around them. Normally a professional farm will do better with this type of horse. Or oddly enough at the owner’s own farm where they can totally control who handles the horse. The worst is the place that has a number of people that get board reductions for barn chores or who let the lesson kids turn in/out. The more controlled the situation the better.

OP you might be able to find the right owner that is confident and good with handling horses but doesn’t have enough money to buy an already well trained horse.

#15

Former client had a big WB mare that was absolutely dangerous. She would be fine and then totally out of the blue, with no justification at all, she would attack with her teeth and her hind end and she meant it

She made the great decision (???!) to breed her and the barn manager told her that it was a huge mistake. She was barely handleable the way it was - add hormones and protectiveness into the mix and she could well be lethal. Owner wanted a foal from her and she was bred.

Fast forward 342 days and the foal was born and you couldn’t get near the mare or the foal. The barn manager went into the stall to get the mare to turn them out and the mare lunged at her and bit her hard on her hand and damaged some ligaments. They were then faced with building a containment area in the stall that the mare could be “shoo-ed” into and contained, so they could muck the stall, bed the stall, handle the foal, dip the umbilicus and do so without getting hurt or killed. They then constructed a chute from the mare’s back stall door out to the paddock so they could be shoo-ed in and out instead of being handled. They purchased 2 boat hooks so if the mare did need to be handled, they had the pole in between themselves and the mare on both sides. The foal was getting worse and worse to handle as it was getting handled so infrequently and it was feeding off the dam’s behavior as well.

They made the decision to do an emergency weaning of the foal, got a mare prepped and started to produce milk and weaned the foal a week or so after

They then found a no nonsense home for this mare (with the owner still keeping her) where she was bred once again (the owner wanted to continue doing so) where they don’t take crap from anything let alone a bitchy mare who believes she rules the universe. The fellow that handles her is a good 6’5", a cowboy and the first time she attacked him a few days after arriving, they had a “discussion” about how a polite mare is supposed to behave and when his wife came back to the barn 20 minutes later she was in the breeding chute munching peppermints and being palpated.

They cannot turn their back on her, they don’t handle her any more than necessary and they will never trust her - ever - in any circumstance, but they are very much professionals, they knew exactly what they were getting into and they take all of the necessary steps to make sure they always have an “out” and they never put themselves into a situation where they can be hurt. And they never put the mare into a situation where she is set up to fail either where they need to get after her

I am too old for crap like that and I value my hide too much as well. Its too easy to get hurt accidently around horses where they simply react to something and you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and you are whacked by 1200 lbs and pay for it.

Maybe once upon a time I would have taken on something like your mare if she had a lot of terrific attributes other than the biting but life is too short to worry about getting bitten - hard - just because they are being a bitch and feel they are justified in doing so

If I ended up with something like your mare in my barn, we would have a “Come to Jesus” session and she would be nailed hard and she would recognize in no uncertain terms that I was the Alpha Mare and she wasn’t. From what you are describing, you are being put in your place by the Alpha Mare - her - and she does that by biting you and forcing you to retreat, just like it would happen in a herd situation.

Its up to you whether to want to assume the position of Lead Mare and use whatever tools are at your disposal to impress upon her that YOU are Alpha and SHE isn’t …

This also doesn’t work to have someone else do this. She needs to understand you are dominant and not someone else otherwise it will continue. But - having said that, it wont be just one session, she will learn and forevermore you will be the Alpha Mare. Just like in a herd, there will be constant attempts to usurp the Lead Mare - you need to recognize those little signs and squash them right away

You would NEVER see an underling attack an Alpha mare in a herd - that’s what you need to understand and accept if you choose to keep this mare, set the ground rules with her, assume the position of Alpha Mare and maintain that #1 spot in “your herd”

A lot for you to think about and figure out if this is doable for you

Also remember - horses read body language very very well. You may well give her to someone who sets the ground rules right from the get go. The mare tries to get one over on them, they squash it immediately, the mare recognizes they are Alpha and never tries the biting with them ever - at all. Its all in how she is perceiving and dealing with you that I think is the biggest problem here …

Good luck!

#16

Watch the movie buck… What you need to understand is sure if you rehome this mare to someone who says they will work with her or whatever. But what happens when they get bit and then they pass her on to someone else who will just pass her on to whoever and she might get beaten or abused. IMO these are you options, 1 put her down. 2 find some farmer with a field he’ll rent to you and let her live out. Keep her. Or as a last ditch effort like if its paying for food or the horse, call a local rescue. But you need to realize they may just put her down if she is dangerous. To anyone, when you buy a rescue you don’t know their past. I see this all the time of OTTBs and the like. When you look at a horse that you want to rescue or give a new career you not only need to see what the horse need physically but mentally.

#17

John Lyons says that a bite or kick that is intentional is an Act of War and authorizes Massive Retaliation. In this I fully agree with him. Near as I can figure from the story no one has done ANYTHING to correct the behavior.

If physical issues have been ruled out (and it appears that they have) then this is a learned, aggressive behavior. That she was sold to the OP with this history undisclosed is an outrage. It might even be cause for litigation.

If the action is truly random then options are few. If a trigger can be identified then perhaps it’s possible to “set her up” to try and bite and beat the daylights out her when she does. It will take at least three times to impose a new habit over the old one.

Some folks might be having a “pearl clutching moment” about now. A few years back on RFD TV Tom Dorrance was working with Larry Mahan and a Trahkenner gelding (IIRC). Every time the horse was girthed up it would try and bite. So Dorrance took the lead shank and the head and told Larry to start, very quietly, to tighten the girth. As soon as the horse felt the girth move he swung around to try and bite Larry. Dorrance, who walked with a cane, used that cane to clock the gelding under the jaw HARD. It was a loud “thwack!” He then returned the head to the front and told Larry to tighten again. The horse again swung his head at Larry and Mr. Tom gave him another sold whack. It took six hits before that horse stopped trying to bite. When it was done Dorrance looked at the camera and said, “We did not teach this horse not to bite. We taught it not to move its head while being girthed up. We’ve begun a process of training, not ended one.”

Either address this or put the horse down. To pass this on to another owner, even with full disclosure, is an abdication of responsible ownership.

G.

#18

I agree that there are some missing pieces to your story.

One thing I want to know: What did you do to correct the behavior when it happened?

Another thing: What did she do to the person that sent them to the hospital? Bit them? Attacked them? Trampled them?

Also, horses rarely do things “out of nowhere”. Most of the time there are signs the behavior is going to happen, whether that’s the flick of an ear, the flaring of a nostril, or the slight raise in their head posture. Not everyone can see or notice these signs but they are there, and they are warning red flags that a bite (or otherwise) is about to follow.

It’s hard to figure out from your post if your horse is simply spoiled and you haven’t corrected her properly, or if she is one of the true dangerous horses that just needs to be put down. Which, of course, would affect my suggested advice to you.

[QUOTE=Mardie Stel;8532130]
First and foremost, I do not want to send my horse somewhere where she will injure someone and/or where she will be beaten.[/QUOTE]

What’s your definition of “beaten”?

I only ask this because when I am personally dealing with an aggressive horse or a biting horse, you are darn right I am going to defend myself. If I’ve got to smack them several times with a whip to get my point across and keep myself safe, I’m going to do it. Some people would consider that “beating” and couldn’t possibly put their poor horsey-kins through that.

When trying to correct an aggressive horse, especially in the beginning, it’s not going to be pretty.

#19

[QUOTE=snowrider;8532170]
Does she only bite? Honestly that wouldn’t bother me much and I think a lot of adult riders would be able to handle this problem. I wouldn’t sell her to a Pony Clubber but a responsible experienced adult shouldn’t have an issue with it. A lot of horses bite. I know a few who are muzzled on occasion even, like when the vet comes or when an unfamiliar person grooms them or handles them or at shows when there is an idiot buffet. Is she nice enough that that kind of rider would be interested in her? It’s really not that big a deal.

For example you mention grooming her while she was eating. That’s the kind of thing I never, ever, ever do. I always halter and tie or secure a horse before doing anything with them and I never do anything in their stalls when they have food. Most of the kinds of horses I’ve been around can be expected to not behave under those circumstances. So what seems dangerous to you might not be to someone with a different background or expectations for a horse.[/QUOTE]agreed. Seems minimal if it has bitten periodically. My well behaved mare that I have had since birth just told me she does not like to be bothered when eating. She warned me and I listened. If you or the previous owners didn’t listen to her warning signs then she decided to yell it to you and you heard her.

#20

[QUOTE=China Doll;8533258]
agreed. Seems minimal if it has bitten periodically. My well behaved mare that I have had since birth just told me she does not like to be bothered when eating. She warned me and I listened. If you or the previous owners didn’t listen to her warning signs then she decided to yell it to you and you heard her.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that you let her dictate her behavior to you? Because that just might be where this mare started to become dangerous. By figuring out she could be a bully and get away with it. I’ve found it very hard to correct in a big, mature horse that has already figured out that by acting the alpha in the equation, they can get away with a lot.

I agree with Guilherme, that someone just may have never made this mare pay for her transgressions. But do think it takes the right person to work with such a horse and you have to be very fair with punishment and reward, and not just any cowboy can make a difference in their behavior.

I would still like to know how big she is. I had an 17.2hd purebred Percheron mare I adored. She didn’t have a lot of manners or handling when she came to me as a broodmare and if she didn’t like a situation, she would just leave, and was big enough to do so. She was an alpha mare and also somewhat blowy and reactive. But I liked her, but still didn’t put up with any crap, and she trusted me so we got on very well together and I could do pretty much anything I wanted with her. I eventually sold her as I did not want to do any more breeding and she produced fabulous babies. However, the new owner and her just did not get on well at all. The mare was bolting and pulling away, knocking her to the ground, refusing to be caught, and of course, she was eventually resold.

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