Could have missed something you wrote and I am sure there is more to the story, but I would not consider what is described any more dangerous than the average horse…she may need a more confident handler and a “reminder” of her manners and definitely be open and honest about her behavior but sounds like the good outweighs that bad.
From reading through the comments, it seems that I obviously didn’t make things very clear regarding her behavior. She has only bitten my twice in the past few years because I have been incredibly cautious when handling her. I do not do anything with her if she does not have a halter on and is securely tied to something. I constantly have my eye on her and am always on guard/ watching her for any signs. I cannot figure out anything that triggers her aggression and she doesn’t show any warning signs. Once, while I was about 4 feet from the fence line, she was sleeping in the corner of her paddock and the next thing I knew she was coming at my, teeth bared, ears back, and wasn’t planning on stopping. It truly is out of nowhere. I have dealt with many grumpy horses, and none of them were as unpredictable as she is. The two times she did grab me, she kept coming after me and only stopped when I was on the other side of the fence. When on cross ties, I am constantly aware of how close I am to her face.
I can assure you that the two bites were not something little, I have been bitten many times by other horses, but have never had one grab my whole arm and then keep coming after me. She sent her old owner to the hospital because she grabbed her arm and wouldn’t let go. If it were just little bites here and there, I wouldn’t have a problem, but when she bites its with the intent to hurt someone.
I usually have a calm temper when she acts up, but the few times that I whacked her, it in turn only made her behavior worse. I guess when I said I don’t want her to end up somewhere where she will be beaten, I meant pure animal abuse. Im all for a few smacks and asserting your dominance.
I also keep her at my own place, where i am the only person who cares for her. I fear boarding her or sending her to someone else because I know that someone will wind up getting injured.
Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and reply.
I’ve fixed pissy biting in an otherwise gentle and friendly mare, who just needs to know the boundaries. You do need to take some action, move their feet or the nice John Lyon anecdote from another poster: teach them not to move their head when they are being worked on.
I too would like some more info from the OP. Either this horse is doing worse things than the OP states, or else no-one around this horse has any basic ground-manners skills, one or the other. Would be useful to know which it is, can’t really give advice on what we’ve heard so far.
OP with your more recent post and descriptions I would euthanize your mare and not try to rehome her. That is way too dangerous of behavior to put onto someone else.
I too have a bitchy mare but I do know once you have a halter on her she is fine and in fact is a great school master/teacher for even beginning riders. She is only bitchy in her stall, not in the pasture. She is manageable for me and my situation but I would not want her in a boarding barn situation.
That is exactly what I fear most, is that she is going to injure someone or go to slaughter.
[QUOTE=Mardie Stel;8533465]
From reading through the comments, it seems that I obviously didn’t make things very clear regarding her behavior. She has only bitten my twice in the past few years because I have been incredibly cautious when handling her. I do not do anything with her if she does not have a halter on and is securely tied to something. I constantly have my eye on her and am always on guard/ watching her for any signs. I cannot figure out anything that triggers her aggression and she doesn’t show any warning signs. Once, while I was about 4 feet from the fence line, she was sleeping in the corner of her paddock and the next thing I knew she was coming at my, teeth bared, ears back, and wasn’t planning on stopping. It truly is out of nowhere. I have dealt with many grumpy horses, and none of them were as unpredictable as she is. The two times she did grab me, she kept coming after me and only stopped when I was on the other side of the fence. When on cross ties, I am constantly aware of how close I am to her face.
I can assure you that the two bites were not something little, I have been bitten many times by other horses, but have never had one grab my whole arm and then keep coming after me. She sent her old owner to the hospital because she grabbed her arm and wouldn’t let go. If it were just little bites here and there, I wouldn’t have a problem, but when she bites its with the intent to hurt someone.
I usually have a calm temper when she acts up, but the few times that I whacked her, it in turn only made her behavior worse. I guess when I said I don’t want her to end up somewhere where she will be beaten, I meant pure animal abuse. Im all for a few smacks and asserting your dominance.
I also keep her at my own place, where i am the only person who cares for her. I fear boarding her or sending her to someone else because I know that someone will wind up getting injured.
Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and reply.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I missed this post.
It does sound like a bad combination of the two of you.
You need to get a good trainer with good ground-work skills in to help you. Not a Parelli person, but also not anyone really violent and over-reactive. A good ground-work, general natural-horseman person.
You do need to respond to this horse, and you do need to respond to this horse at an appropriate level for what she is throwing at you. In the scenarios you describe, this means fairly strong response initially. Yes, it may mean that you need to take a longe whip to her a few times; it certainly means that you need to send her away from you quite vigorously.
Do you do any ground work with her now? Do you longe? Do you do in-hand work?
She is treating you like an alpha mare treats a lower-status horse in the field, which is chasing you out of her space and then biting you if you don’t move fast enough. If you are going to work with a horse, you need to be the alpha.
By the way, how does she get along with other horses? Does she have pasture companions? Does she live alone?
My mare only bites when you are pissing her off (grooming, saddling) and the thing I have seen that works best is getting her to move her feet, to move away from me very fast when she has overstepped our boundaries. That is how she wins little status games with the bossy mare in the next paddock: the one that steps back loses that round of the game. And if I send my mare away really fast, after she offers to bite or kick, then she comes back very polite, for that day at least.
Whereas your horse always wins the biting game, because you run.
I don’t know if your horse is just a bossy mare who will behave if she gets some proper groundwork, or if she is a bit crazy. From your account, it doesn’t sound like you have responded very consistently to disciplining her. So I would suggest getting a good natural horsemanship/ground work trainer in, have them do a session, evaluate her, and make some suggestions. Either they will give you some good tools for working on this, or they will say the horse is above your level but OK for someone else, or that they horse is a serious problem. Then you will have some more, better informed, data for your decision.
The initial sessions with the trainer and your horse will involve the whip, for sure, and they may be quite vigorous. But they shouldn’t be abusive, and won’t be, if the trainer is savvy enough to use just enough force to get the mare to listen. People get violent when they get scared and angry, or feel they are losing face, so pick a trainer who has the confidence to follow through without a short fuse.
She doesn’t kick, but when she does bite, she goes at you until you are able to put something like a fence between you. We tried muzzling her, but that only seemed to make her more upset. Even though she is great under saddle, Im just not sure who would be willing to put their safety at risk just for a good horse to ride.
OP, sorry you are faced with this dilemma. I applaud you for being honest about your mare’s serious capacity to maim and injure people, and your reasonable concerns that she’ll end up in a truck headed to Mexico. Both sound very probable.
I had a conversation just the other day with a woman who has a horse like yours … but that mare is much more determined about full-on attacking any woman around. The owner can’t get near her. She will charge a woman on the lunge line. A woman cannot go into her stall or handle her. She yanked a 10 year old girl backwards about 20 feet by her pony tail a few weeks ago, and that should be a wake up call to her owner about potential for injury and her liability. For those who might question, this mare was bred and raised by one person (a woman), and never mishandled or abused in her life. Then, around 2, she just flipped out. Every lab test in the world has been done, and nothing is out of whack metabolically.
I guess what I would say is there are thousands of good tempered horses out there that are doing their jobs. It’s hard to imagine anyone really wanting to take on and commit to caring for life for this mare. I certainly would not fault you for recognizing no one will care for her as you can and do, and letting her go before something awful happens to someone, or to her. It’s a much kinder end.
Honestly, I don’t see how you can ethically re-home this mare. I appreciate that you were honest with us on this thread about the severity of her behavior. There are MANY nippy horses out there or even biters that are predictable in their behavior to the point where they can be safely managed with reasonably experienced handlers. Also, most horses bite in a limited way–they aren’t looking to maim, just to give a solid pinch.
But, an attack where a horse grabs you with its teeth and keeps coming…that’s pretty darn dangerous. And with this mare it isn’t an isolated incident in a stressful situation. Your mare sounds more dangerous than any of the stallions I currently handle, who BTW are only handled by pro-level handlers.
Even if someone were comfortable taking her, I don’t see how you could ever feel comfortable with it. Few people could re-create the situation you already keep her in and the caution you use. Any adult amateur who takes her (I can’t see a pro wanting her) would be sure to eventually take her out in public or have someone else handle her. Eventually there would probably even be a kid in range of her.
I’ve been in your shoes. Pergolide did help my mare, but it was temporary. I ended up euthanizing her. It was hard, but it was really the only responsible decision. Even my vet agreed that it was the right decision and gave me no issues with doing it. It’s been 3 yrs and while I miss her, I really enjoy not having to feed with a lunge whip in my hand.
I think that unless you can find an experienced horse trainer to take her for free and have an iron clad “if you can’t fix her put her down” you should put her down if you are worried about her future.
There is a chance that someone will either put the correct training on her or find something medically wrong that fixes her behavior but there is also a chance someone could get seriously hurt and if you do not want to take that chance and are concerned about her being moved on and on then put her down.
[QUOTE=Mardie Stel;8533496]
She doesn’t kick, but when she does bite, she goes at you until you are able to put something like a fence between you. .[/QUOTE]
Adding on to the questions, do you carry a “weapon” of some sort with you when she comes at you? Is she getting any kind of punishment when she makes you jump the fence? Are YOU getting any whacks on her as she comes towards you? I mean is she taking the punishment and still coming after you? Or has she scared the heck out of you and you jump to save yourself?
I will carry a Driving Whip in a field with me, while the young horses are “learning who is ALPHA” in our group. They can get to running and playing, take shots at each other. Driving whip length of 5 1/2ft stick, 2ft of lash, can “reach out and touch them” while I am still safely out of kicking range. They learn to respect my vocal commands to back off, NOT race up to me, approach slowly, get pets with faces ALL looking at me. They do get whacked if disobedient, pushy, kicky, come back more respectful, just like the Lead Mare does to them!
Not sure if having a whip like that would do much with a large horse coming at you, if she was determined. I could “stroke on her” before she reached me, but it might not be enough to turn or stop her getting me anyhow. The solid cane mentioned previously, might be more effective as she comes on, but cane is pretty short so you have to let her get closer to reach her. Then you probably only have one whack in that time span to get her. Maybe a Shepherd’s Staff, longer stick length, cane shape, wooden to give some heft to a hit, would keep her at more of a distance. In that situation you HAVE to protect yourself, hit her as hard as you can to drive her away from you. Horse brought this on themselves. Horse had a choice NOT to act evilly.
Guess I need more answers to my questions to make a 100% recommend on Euthing her, but she is pretty close. Sometimes they get an idea in their brain and you can’t retrain. Sometimes their brains are not wired right, you can’t fix it. Some truly are evil, can’t fix that either.
I surely would not want to pass horse and her biting off to other people with chance of them getting hurt or killed. You got hurt, previous people got hurt, next one may get killed, not as good as you or on bad ground that day horse decides to attack, which is what it sounds like. Running across the field to get you! And horse will have to be “dominated” by EVERY person in her future that might need to handle her. Not looking good. Can you live with yourself if she does hurt or kill someone later on, despite retraining? Do you want to own her, put up with this until she dies of natural causes? If I can’t, horse would be put down. She sounds like a time bomb, goes off without warning. Her reasons are unacceptable. You have given her your best shot, all the checking for causes, found nothing.
You have been attacked twice, hurt pretty bad, had other incidents she didn’t GET you, but it was “that” close, over the time you have had her. This is bad, not just a “she bit me twice” thing.
It’s the out of the blue/randomness that would scare me. If there were specific triggers that could be worked through, it would be different.
I know of one other horse that was that randomly aggressive. Owners ended up putting him down and did a necropsy for their own peace of mind. The horse had mineral build ups in his brain which had never previously been observed in horses… only in the brains of of serial killers from a study that had looked at physical reasons behind mental illness through autopsy.
This behavior is saddly too ingrained in her.
I’ve stopped that kind of behavior in a younger gelding in a few CTJ sessions and always been cautious for +1 year after that. He still look pissy, he could potentialy bite but he learned, the hard way, to never attack a human being. He only succeeded once at attacking his 1rst owner and was then sent to me for a year.
He’s now with new owners who are well aware of his tendency and would never allow any signs of agressiveness. THey are really strict with him and the horse is thriving with that much control. He’s quiet and totally submissive now. And even then, owners would consider euthanasia over rehoming because we all know he could revert to his agressive self if not managed properly.
But in your case, this behavior was ‘‘allowed’’ and ‘‘successfull’’ a few times, I’m sorry to say that it is now there to stay and no amount of in-hand/horsemanship/natural training will fix it. Sadly, euthanasia seems to be the only solution.
I agree with Guilherme: “Either address this or put the horse down. To pass this on to another owner, even with full disclosure, is an abdication of responsible ownership.”
Edited to add, for a horse to behave this dangerously, I would strongly recommend both euthanasia and necropsy for your peace of mind. I would not be surprised if that necropsy, and an especially thorough look at the brain, were to show the horse either has a brain tumor, or even rabies. If you have that done, please report back to us, as that would be useful to know what caused the behavior.
OP, I hate to be blunt, but this horse is not worth your time anymore. Horses are too expensive and too much work to be dealing with constant fear and worry for yourself and for your horse’s well being. I think you are a very responsible horseman that you have put forth the money and time to try to rule out any medical or pain issues, and you may never know what is causing this aggression, but it’s time to let the horse go kindly. You are smart enough to know the risks that can happen to other people if she gets rehomed, and the uncertainty for her ending up in dangerous situations. You really do seem like a quality horseman and it would be a shame for you to get seriously hurt from this horse and decide to be done with horses forever.
I think there are some decent suggestions being thrown around to try to remedy this behavior, but honestly, unless you are going out into the pasture in a suit of armor, do not risk further injury! You have every right to be afraid of this mare, you are well aware of what she is capable of and you never know what to expect. It sounds like you always have to walk on eggshells around her and that’s not the way owning a horse should be.
I’m so sorry for your lousy situation, but I hope you can imagine a day when you can have a reliable, predictable horse that you can be completely at ease around.
I’m sorry, but in light of your second post, I have to agree with the ‘put her down’ camp.
I’ve been around a dangerous horse. This horse’s owner didn’t consider him dangerous, but he tried to run me over twice, both times without provocation. The first time, he dislocated my shoulder. The second, I rolled under a fence. That was the last time I was ever around him alone. Whips did not work for him; he knew they wouldn’t hurt him badly enough to be a deterrent. I really rather suspect, since she’s been doing this for a long time, that the same might be true for her, especially since you said that you have whacked her a few times, and it’s only made things worse. She’s big. She knows it.
Like others have said, if there was a trigger, if it was food aggression or something that could be worked with, then I’d suggest sending her out for 60 days with a no-nonsense trainer who could then give you a better idea of whether she could ever get over it or not. But if it’s truly random, without triggers of any kind, and she’s already put another person in the hospital for no reason, then no matter how good she is under saddle, she’ll never be trustworthy on the ground.
OP…I can sympathize with your desire to “save” this horse, but I think you’ve given “dealing with her” your best effort. It sounds like “someday” she will really hurt someone. At her age…she has a lot of time to reach that goal. I believe euthanasia would be the best for the horse…apparently she has a bad connection somewhere in her brain…and for the many people who stand a heck of a chance of being harmed by her. You did your best…I think it is time to bury her demons and her!! So sorry for you.
If she had rabies for 4 years she’d be dead
I agree this is beyond cheeky nipping. Euthanize her 
I’d say put her down she’s not worth your time or the risk of being seriously hurt. I had a gelding who was the same way. But i never backed down from him when he came after me.
The straw that broke the camels back on him,was when he went after my then 4 year old daughter. Only thing that kept him from getting her was a 5 foot fence & my rage and flying feed buckets, that nailed him right upside his head.
He was PTS very next day and i don’t regret it,and that horse went down fighting,he tried to bite the vet and struck out with front feet. He could never be trusted,i sure wasn’t going to pass him off to another person.
