Rehoming a dangerous horse

[J-Lu]

Based on the original posts, it sounds like this mare needs a more dominant (not aggressive, but “boss mare”, “boss geldin/stallion”) type of owner. I don’t see what the OP describes as dangerous. I see that the mare is exerting her dominance over people who aren’t prepared to tell her, in a natural way, that she’s not the dominant mare. I don’t blame the mare - many insecure horses attempt to claim dominance if the current owner/handler doesn’t seem to be “herd leader”.

WITH THE RIGHT KIND OF OWNER/TRAINER, this problem can be fixed quickly. I suggest the OP research giving the horse away to a good home who is prepared to put the time and training into the horse. I don’t see a horse who is ready to be put down, I see a horse who can benefit from some solid training from a quality trainer.

[Obi]

I took in a dangerous gelding that was over shown (in 3-4 different divisions every weekend), was born out in the fields of Wisconsin and only touched when he and his sibling were purchased on line and shipped to New England as yearlings.
He was a gorgeous horse but he either had flipped over once too often or was driven to ulcers dry to being leased out to anyone chasing points for year end awards. He was know. To either place 1st when he wanted to or try to run down the judge, all in the same show. He became a product of his environment and after he literally ripped the dress shirt of a girls father and sent a barn worker to the hospital, almost blinding him, they got some “save the horses” sucker to shell out $2500 to ‘save’ him. In six months, she gave him away twice, each time returned due to his behavior issues.
I took him in bcuz I had just bought a small farm and I needed a companion horse for my gelding. I lived on a dead end road in almost complete seclusion. And yes, I walked around the pasture with a rubber black 3" long hosing pipe when he was out loose. I had those black hard rubber pipes stashed everywhere “just in case” and boy did they save my hide when I couldn’t make it to the fence line.
I “accepted” that he was nuts but I was in the right position to allow him to live out his days without contact with anyone but me. I even had his hocks operated on, where they removed 12+ bone chips, one the size of my thumb. He had been insured and I thought that might be the miracle he needed.
He came home pasture sound and sniper like biting skills, regardless of the $4000 I just spent to make his life better.
I can tell you that even though I lived on a dead end road and neighbor’s were not close, my stomach turned every time I saw someone walk near the fence line and he would approach with his beautiful ears perked. If I had company or friends over, they could not come down to the barn until I had him safely in his stall and behind the boarder I created in stones around his stall so no one would get bitten. The sheer stress of not being able to enjoy my other horse with friends etc bcuz I was terrified this horse would hurt them took a lot out of my enjoyment of my farm.
He and I had had our run ins and the rule I put in place was that the day he sent me to the ER was the day I put him in the ground.
And low and behold, one spring day I was outside just giving him “scritches”, aka scratching and rubbing off the winter fur and just hitting their favorite itchy spot, and with his ears perked forward and a dull gleem in his eye, he open mouthed but down thru a sweatshirt, turtleneck and long sleeve tee shirt and crushed my right arm. And bcuz I have been used to these sniper bites, I would often take off the garmet or shirt he had hold of and let him run off with it as I ran half naked back up to the house. But this time, he had my skin and all the mew me around my right arm bone. And the dead look in his eyes made me understand how broken he really was.
He eventually let go and I was able to get the heck out of there, he made every effort to try to catch me.
And yes, I ended up in the ER. The bite did not fracture the bone but it continues to abscess and the scar tissue that developed needs to be debrieded but that won’t happen any time soon.
I let him have one last summer and one a perfect fall day, the vet came out and put him down. He is the only animal I refused to be there when he went down bcuz he was such a prick of a horse, I just knew he would fight any an all euthanasia just to spite me.
I know that I gave him 7 of the best years of his life and I tried not to push him or provoke him. But having a dangerous animal like that on my property was very hard. I was always afraid. What if he got out? What if a neighbor’s child got into to pasture? What if he hurt my father when he came to visit?
Add to that my arm is still really screwed up and that was by far not the most painful bite he got in, or kick, or blatant run over in the field.
I’m very proud of myself that I did all I could for this horse but he just wasn’t right and I couldn’t fix him.
I gave him love & quiet and when that didn’t work, I gave him peace.
There was no other choice to give by that point.
Please remember that having a dangerous horse not only effects you but every barn worker, farrier, vet, etc. that may have to work with them. And know that you will ALWAYS worry when people are around that he may hurt someone.
Good luck …it’s a big decision to take on.

[TrueColours]

Back in 2009 I started this thread:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?233805-quot-Meanest-Stallions-in-History-quot-thread&highlight=dangerous+stallions

about the meanest stallions in history because there are some truly dangerous ones out there and cannot be handled by anyone other than really knowledgeable professionals that have the facility and the ability to effectively manage them and keep everyone safe that has to come into contact with them

Right or wrong, in a lot of these cases, there is a financial reason for keeping them alive and having to deal with them on a daily basis but many safeguards have been put into place as well - plexiglass on their stall bars, an exterior stall door to their own paddock so no one has to handle them going in or out, boat hooks to hook onto their halters (which never come off their heads) and a strict routine when breeding and when they need to come out of their stalls to try and keep everyone involved from getting hurt or killed by them

In one notable case one of these stallions got loose and the terrified handler ran and hid under a truck and the stallion was down on his knees trying to get to him and savage him. It was decided at that time the risk outweighed the benefits and he was PTS that day. Another TB stallion got loose from his female owner and handler a few years ago and nearly killed her. She made the same decision that same day

You have to weigh the pros and cons and examine your reasons for keeping this mare alive. As many have mentioned, I thought initially it was a quick bitchy grab - I had no idea until your next post that she kept coming at you and meant it and was determined to “get you”.

Yes - she might be able to be rehabilitated to an extent with you or someone else but you will never EVER be able to trust her. Ever with anyone so she will always forevermore remain a liability and when (its no longer a case of “if”) she hurts someone who came into her range and it becomes known that she has done this many times in the past, the lawsuit will be crippling to whoever has her in their ownership at the time

You have to ask yourself - is it worth losing everything in a lawsuit and living with the fact she hurt or killed someone, just to keep her alive?

[Ruth0552]

Given your update and clarifications, I think rehoming this horse would have a lot to do with how talented she is. If this horse was winning in Wellington or going Prelim, I’m sure there would be some experienced “amateur” willing to deal with the risks, or put more money into finding a problem.

However, I get the feeling that the horse is an all-around hacking type, in which case it would be infinitely harder to find an appropriate, experienced individual to take her on.

When you say, the muzzle “upsets her more,” what exactly does that mean? Like it gets her agitated and likely to try to bite when she is wearing it, or she was wearing it once when she lashed out and it made her more angry? I think in either scenario, I would be getting maresy used to wearing a muzzle more often.

Any chance she might have an issue with her ovaries and heat cycle? I know you said you tried regumate and depo, but if she’s only bitten you twice in the years you’ve owned her, are you sure those things didn’t help?

I don’t suppose you want to CT scan her head?

[gloriginger]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8533989]
Based on the original posts, it sounds like this mare needs a more dominant (not aggressive, but “boss mare”, “boss geldin/stallion”) type of owner. I don’t see what the OP describes as dangerous. I see that the mare is exerting her dominance over people who aren’t prepared to tell her, in a natural way, that she’s not the dominant mare. I don’t blame the mare - many insecure horses attempt to claim dominance if the current owner/handler doesn’t seem to be “herd leader”.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. OP said that the few times she has challenged the mare it escalated the aggression. I have known a few mares like this, they would fight back if they were challenged. Sometimes we are so quick to blame it on the owner, to me OP sounds like she is pretty experienced with horses, has explored all possible medical reasons, and has managed to be savvy enough with the horse to only be attacked twice in 4 years.

Or the horses I knew, one had a really dirty turn and double barrel kick that was completely unpredictable and happened so quick you didn’t have time to react. Her name was avalanche…

The other was a nasty horse, pinned her ears when you entered her stall, tried to bite when brushing her and she would cow kick. She was sold and I often wonder what became of her.

Some horses are just nasty…be it temperament or environment. But I just feel like there are way to many animals in the world to put up with jerks, horses, dogs anything. At the end of the day it costs just as much to feed a a-hole as it does to feed a nice well mannered horse.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8533989]
Based on the original posts, it sounds like this mare needs a more dominant (not aggressive, but “boss mare”, “boss geldin/stallion”) type of owner. I don’t see what the OP describes as dangerous. I see that the mare is exerting her dominance over people who aren’t prepared to tell her, in a natural way, that she’s not the dominant mare. I don’t blame the mare - many insecure horses attempt to claim dominance if the current owner/handler doesn’t seem to be “herd leader”.

WITH THE RIGHT KIND OF OWNER/TRAINER, this problem can be fixed quickly. I suggest the OP research giving the horse away to a good home who is prepared to put the time and training into the horse. I don’t see a horse who is ready to be put down, I see a horse who can benefit from some solid training from a quality trainer.[/QUOTE]
Same…

I wouldn’t be throwing ketamine needles at this mare just yet, based on what OP has provided us… note in her posts she words it in a way that suggests when the mare advances that the OP leaves/gets behind a fence… OP states she has backed down from this mare and if that is not a reinforcement for bad behavior IDK what is… OP I am not blaming you - if my safety was in jeopardy I would do the same, I am just pointing out it seems this may not be the best fit for you. Maybe a numbers thing – 2 bites in 4 years is not, IMHO, a horse that is trying to kill you…

Now, if she had this horse for say, four years, and the mare made an attempt to savage her on a monthly basis, I’d be saying she’s a rogue and deserves nothing but a hole in the ground… but in the OP’s description it appears this only happens when the mare is loose - probably food around, etc. It really sounds like the mare programmed her owners (OP) included into backing off when she isn’t “Feeling it” that day.

Again, two bites in four years is not a savage, rogue animal. I agree that it is time for the OP to move this mare on, but I think if she found a good trainer who was able to remedy the attitude it would be a better alternative.

[FatCatFarm]

You might could give her away to some experienced person with full disclosure to see if they could bring her around, but barring that, I would euthanize her. She sounds pretty determined and likely won’t ever be completely trustworthy. Sorry.

Some you just can’t fix. I’ve a friend with a mare similar to yours and she has even confronted the mare and backed her down for trying to come after her, but she continues to try. She said she’s going to euthanize her because she just can’t trust her.

[vxf111]

I have to respectfully disagree. A horse that is grumpy and nips and then stops is normal (rude but normal). That’s a horse you handle carefully, tie before going in the stall, etc. I’ve dealt with plenty. I don’t particularly go looking to own one of these, but I wouldn’t suggest euthanization as an option, just careful handling.

A horse that wants to savage the human is not normal. A horse that bites and won’t let go and then comes after you such that you have to RUN is beyond the typical nippy rudeness. A horse that sent someone to the ER by biting is beyond the typical nippy rudeness. A horse that you need to take a weapon with you into the pasture is beyond typical. Even if the attacks are very intermittent.

I boarded with a horse who was a royally bred, young, beautiful hunter. 99.9% of the time she was a doll to deal with. But maybe every 6 months or so, something would happen which would cause her to sense weakness and she would viciously attack with no warning. The first time the rider fell off while jumping. She turned on the rider, lying on the ground, and began to savage her. Our trainer screamed and ran up, scaring the mare off. The rider brushed it off as being unusual/something odd having trigged the horse. She was good for months and months. I mean sweet as pie, anyone could ride and handle her. She wasn’t nippy or alpha or anything. Just normal. Except when she would attack. The second time I was going to catch a horse in the (huge, maybe 20+ acres) pasture. The mare came running up out of nowhere to attack me. I wasn’t even near another horse at the time. Thank god I had a heavy leather halter and lead rope because by attacking back with that I was able to drive her off. People had been catching horses in the pasture with her for months, there was no reason why she would attack out of the blue.

Something was wrong with that horse. Some horses have something seriously wrong. I would say, based on the description, that the OP’s horse is one of them. And she’s going to hurt someone. Nippy/grumpy about certain things you can work around. Perfect behavior 99.9% of the time and then 0.1% of the time with no warning the horse comes at you hell bent in inflicting harm-- is too dangerous to work around.

[sassy45]

[QUOTE=Mardie Stel;8532130]
Hi there- I am desperate for advice on rehoming my dangerous mare.

After discussing in length with her previous owners about what she was like when they had her, I found out that she sent someone to the hospital once and that they ended up carrying around PVC pipe to scare her off.

Here it is in writing sent someone to hospital once ^^^^^^^so how many more times does that need to happen before horse kills someone???

[catherines]

Put her down !! Why take the risk of putting someone else in the position you are now in ? Even with full disclosure to the potential home this is a bad idea.
I’m sorry for what you are going through , but with all the nice , sane easy to work with horses out there why would anyone even consider giving house room to something that at best can be described as unpredictable.
Kindest thing for her put her down humanely before she falls into the wrong hands and comes to a nasty end.

[Bearskin]

Talent and the promise of a winning performance should NEVER outweigh a safe and sane disposition–especially in the world of ammies. Put her down.

[Mia_Sorella]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8534293]
I have to respectfully disagree. A horse that is grumpy and nips and then stops is normal (rude but normal). That’s a horse you handle carefully, tie before going in the stall, etc. I’ve dealt with plenty. I don’t particularly go looking to own one of these, but I wouldn’t suggest euthanization as an option, just careful handling.

A horse that wants to savage the human is not normal. A horse that bites and won’t let go and then comes after you such that you have to RUN is beyond the typical nippy rudeness. A horse that sent someone to the ER by biting is beyond the typical nippy rudeness. A horse that you need to take a weapon with you into the pasture is beyond typical. Even if the attacks are very intermittent. [/QUOTE]

THIS x1000. There’s a huge difference between “rude with aggressive tendencies” and “out for blood”. I’m at a loss as to how anyone can advise someone that a horse like this just needs more training. This horse (and other “out for blood” types) want to hurt you. Period. One day that PVC pipe/ special turnout method/chains/whatever won’t be enough to manage the horse and it will succeed in achieving its end goal.

Unless this horse is freakishly talented, I’d just put it down. If it’s freakishly talented, try giving it away to a local pro with 100% disclosure of the behaviour along with a muzzle. Document everything in writing and obtain a signed release.

I groomed a horse like this once. She didn’t bite–she savaged you. Picked me up off the ground by the middle of my back and started to shake me (luckily she got a not-so-fleshy part and wasn’t able to hold onto to me for very long). And I wasn’t the first she did that to. BUT she could jump around a grand prix track with a deaf, dumb, blind monkey on her back so her behaviour was tolerated.

[Pocket_Pony]

I put down a dangerous horse a few years ago. That horse had bitten a couple of people (not me) and was aggressive with me. He would challenge me and charge me when I’d put food out. I would carry a whip with me whenever dealing with him on the ground. He wasn’t a great riding horse, although he was great on the trails. He had a screw loose, as he only got worse as time went on. I had a house sitter quit on me and I realized that when I was waiting for him to do something bad again before I made a decision on what to do, I had already made my decision.

My horse had various soundness problems as well. Over the years I had tried many things - vet, chiro/acupuncture, saddle fitting, T-Touch, shoeing, training, etc. None of those things solved the problems. He was aggressive and a huge liability. I decided to put him down. There’s no way I would have handed his issues off to anyone, because he would either hurt someone, or he’d end up abused and/or on the meat truck.

I don’t regret it. I was sad that for whatever reason that was his lot in life, but he lived as good of a life as he could have at my farmette, and his last days were peaceful.

[beau159]

[QUOTE=Mardie Stel;8533465]
From reading through the comments, it seems that I obviously didn’t make things very clear regarding her behavior. She has only bitten my twice in the past few years because I have been incredibly cautious when handling her. I do not do anything with her if she does not have a halter on and is securely tied to something. I constantly have my eye on her and am always on guard/ watching her for any signs. I cannot figure out anything that triggers her aggression and she doesn’t show any warning signs. Once, while I was about 4 feet from the fence line, she was sleeping in the corner of her paddock and the next thing I knew she was coming at my, teeth bared, ears back, and wasn’t planning on stopping. It truly is out of nowhere. I have dealt with many grumpy horses, and none of them were as unpredictable as she is. The two times she did grab me, she kept coming after me and only stopped when I was on the other side of the fence. When on cross ties, I am constantly aware of how close I am to her face.

I can assure you that the two bites were not something little, I have been bitten many times by other horses, but have never had one grab my whole arm and then keep coming after me. She sent her old owner to the hospital because she grabbed her arm and wouldn’t let go. If it were just little bites here and there, I wouldn’t have a problem, but when she bites its with the intent to hurt someone.

I usually have a calm temper when she acts up, but the few times that I whacked her, it in turn only made her behavior worse. I guess when I said I don’t want her to end up somewhere where she will be beaten, I meant pure animal abuse. Im all for a few smacks and asserting your dominance.

I also keep her at my own place, where i am the only person who cares for her. I fear boarding her or sending her to someone else because I know that someone will wind up getting injured.

Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and reply.[/QUOTE]

Thank you OP for adding more clarification.

Since you stated you no longer have the means to keep her, if I were personally in your shoes, I would put her down. It’s sad and unfortunate, but it sounds like this mare is truly out for blood, and I don’t know that it would be fair or safe to put anyone else into a position of harm.

Truth is, there are plenty of good-natured horses out there in this world. I don’t find it necessary to deal with the ones that truly are aggressive and go for the kill.

[AMWookey]

I am in the put her down camp as well unfortunately. The fact that she randomly comes at you, and doesn’t stop coming at you, is beyond bitchy lead mare syndrome. It sounds like you have done everything possible to fix the problem, and you are right in thinking she is dangerous. There are some horses out there, that are just in that camp. I rode a pony for a friend in a clinic, they had to use a stiff shank to get her out of her stall, otherwise she would try and kill you. I leased a mare who wasn’t weaned when she should have been, and she would attack you. She attacked me, sent my mother to the hospital. I recommended she be put down but the owner sent her to a no nonense cowboy.

My gelding reared up and struck me in the paddock 2 years ago. Cracked my skull open and then nearly came down on my back. If there hadn’t been witnesses that stated he did everything possible to avoid landing on me, and if he had continued to come at me, I wouldn’t have hesitated to put him down. Some things are just not worth your luck. Luckily for me, and him, he never tried again, and he has become a good horse, but not one that anyone trusts completely as he also bites. He doesn’t attack and hold on though, and we have learned to deflect his mouthiness. My guys misbehaviour was entirely attributable to no handling until he was pulled out of a field and gelded at 5. With training and proper handling, I know he is safe. I would never sell him though. It sounds like you are past that with your girl.

[seema]

So it seems to me modifying the mare’s environment and/or handling have NOT been tried yet?? I still have a lump in my tricep from a bite from my horse just over 2 years ago…very hard very fast biter yes with a grip and had I not been wearing a winter coat I would have had to go to the hospital…of course jesus was instantly called to one hell of a board meeting, but then quickly moved him to a less stressful environment with more turn out where I could successfully treat his ulcers and back pain for a long term solution that has been successful.

[shadedingray]

From what you’ve described, it seems that this mare is unpredictable and I think that the kindest thing to do would be to put her down. You don’t want to put this kind of liability on someone else. The horse industry can be a shady one and you never really know who this horse is going to unless it’s a very well-known professional.

I will suggest one thing if you have an open mind. I know not everyone believes in this sort of stuff, but I have used an animal communicator before. The one I have used has “talked” to my horses and my snake (yes, I have a pet snake, haha). I was a skeptic about all this until a BO I worked for let me listen to a session where the communicator talked to a horse that I worked with on a regular basis. The things she conveyed to us about this horse were so dead on that she couldn’t be wrong and she definitely couldn’t have guessed. Also keep in mind that this woman lives states away from us and never met the horse in person. I can attest to the same when she “spoke” to my animals as well.

The sessions are not ridiculously expensive if you are receptive to this idea to try and get in her head and see what is bothering her. If you’re interested, I’m happy to send you her website and info. If not, put her down and focus your energy and time on a horse worth your effort that is not a danger to you or anyone that works with the horse.

[nu2u]

I just saw mention of the animal communicator and have also know them to provide accurate information, really sounds like you do not have much($50-$100) to lose by trying one.

[melhorse]

I would euth this horse. There are some horses humans can not/should not fix…

[Fharoah]

Personally I had a marewith lousy ground manners who would threaten to bite that was well behaved under saddle. I gave the mare away to a trainer under full disclosure. The trainer specialized in rescues and wanted her. This mayor could be nice she just had a lot of attitude and I didn’t want to deal with it so I gave her away for free but I told them everything about her. I also told them that she likes attention and my come around with the right training and discipline. And told him I’d take her back if it didn’t work.they took her under full disclosure and she’s doing well although still got lots abou they took her under full disclosure and she’s doing well although still got lots of attitude. If you do rehome this horse write a contract that says they were fully aware of her issues and potential to be dangerous. But there are so many horses out there that it may be very tough to find a home. I am always afraid of the animal getting in a bad situation and getting harmed. Good luck!