Rehoming a dangerous horse

[red_mares]

This horse doesn’t sound like she has nearly enough going for her to be this nasty. Someone mentioned several wicked TB stallions - those horses had something going for them to warrant putting up with their crap.

This sounds like an every day nice English Pleasure type horse. Who needs an ordinary EP horse that will literally kill you? If she were a Grand Prix anything, I’d try and find someone who could recalibrate her. I don’t think this mare really has enough going for her to warrant a cowboy getting killed.

Put her down. Then thank the people you bought her from for creating such a monster.

[snowrider]

Yeah the OPs update changes my opinion. Do I know horses like this who’ve been handled and done fine? Yes, absolutely. But they all had someone willing to pony up the monthly training $$ to keep them in a professional program indefinitely and it doesn’t sound like that is this horse’s fate.

I can think of one good childrens hunter on the A circuit who was a bitey jerk and would absolutely come after you if you corrected him. Now, in the hands of an experienced pro or groom that was a big mistake on his part but if Pony Dad gave a tug on the lead shank ringside it would’ve ended badly. The people he sold to accepted that and had a great pro and won lots but I always thought he was screwy in the head. Great under saddle.

[danacat]

Just my two cents on all this:

So…the mare obviously had to be ‘normal’ between birth and what ever date in time (and age) she became roguish, If she hadn’t been ‘normal’ she wouldn’t have been trainable and wouldn’t have become such a nice riding horse. Ergo: She was a ‘good horse’ for quite a long time. And someone thought enough of her to keep her around as a solid riding horse.

That being said, it seems to me that this ‘attacking’ behavior was learned behavior (that reared its ugly head at some point AFTER she was already trained) and came about from some sort of ‘episode’ – caused by an abusive person.

And…this episode, or series of episodes were bad enough to blow this mare’s mind and completely make her distrustful of certain people. MAYBE

Sometimes seriously abused horses who have been abused by MEN, go through their lives hating men. Horses that were abused by women, go through their lives hating women. Sometimes it’s tall people, or short people, or people who wear a certain kind of hat or have a certain kind of voice.

Point being: Certain horses don’t forget the APPEARANCE of that which abused them (say a lead pipe or a whip) and…they don’t forget the physical characteristics of the human being who beat them with the whip or the lead pipe.

Certainly, this type of acute, circumstantial and episodic ‘memory’ (the kind that triggers seemingly bizarre and random violence in a horse, even an abused one) – is RARE. But not unheard of.

Since I don’t know the complete history of this mare’s life, it’s impossible for me to say I’m right about this. But I just keep thinking that this mare is set off by pure fear (of something)–and goes into attack/self preservation mode because of this something.

The fact that she waits and then charges, means to me that she is THINKING before she acts…and then does act because her memory is just too strong to make her change her mind. Bingo–learned behavior she’s taught herself.

I know this offers the OP no advice…

I just feel so bad for this mare (and the OP !! ) that I wish I had the resources to take the mare, in order to TRY to figure out her fears and mental pain.

I’ve seen many batty horses in my time-- all the product of human abuse, or in the case of some racehorses they become savage because they are in pain. Seen that first hand too. Unfortunately.

But–the mare’s problems could have come from something not related to people at all. Perhaps she was never socialized with other horses, and thus never learned how to behave in a herd situation, in the company of alphas and subordinates-- and just doesn’t know her place. Maybe she needs to be turned out with a herd for awhile…so she can learn ‘who’ she is and where she fits, taught by horses in horse language.

Just my thoughts…

[khall]

danacat I disagree. I had a WB filly that I bred and raised, she hit the ground not liking people too much (weird because her half sibs LOVE people). She would also try to be dominant to people but not to horses at the time I rehomed her (to a VERY good pro) at only 4 yrs old. She never really went after me but she did to one of my stall helpers one day (what prompted me to rehome her). She would have been an interesting horsemanship case but was not worth the risk IMO.

So I do think some horses are born this way, not made this way. I also know of another WB mare who was euthanized (story from TOB years ago) due to her aggressive behavior.

My bitchy mare can and will and has bitten, but she is very manageable. Again a WB mare, go figure. Funny enough her two offspring love people and also have made good riding horses for me (in fact hopped up on the mare today bareback just for kicks). They are not for everyone, especially the gelding who can push the line quite regularly.

[BeeHoney]

Danacat, horses do not attack out of fear. Horses are prey animals that avoid or run from threats. Even a cornered horse would usually rather try and escape through some desperate leap rather than bite a predator. The only exception I have ever seen is a mare protecting a foal.

Many times in my life I have seen horses with behavior problems labeled as “having been abused.” But, all too frequently, the horses were either unhandled in their youth (and perpetually consider humans as predators) or over-handled (such as a coddled orphan foal) or simply born with personality traits that were recalcitrant to even the most consistent professional handling.

Ultimately, though, when a horse is dangerous it really doesn’t matter “why.” I think that the idea of reforming a 1200 lb. animal that periodically attacks with extreme vigor with no provocation is naive. It’s one thing to try to reform a horse with a milder, less dangerous habit, where the consequences of failing to fix the problem (or mistakenly thinking you have it fixed) are small, but this level of aggression falls into a different category.

The idea of rescuing and taming a beautiful but unmanageable/ abused/ mistreated/ misunderstood animal is considered very romantic in our culture. Many people out there hold dearly to the notion that there is always some fix or cure for an animal with a serious behavioral problem. The notion of the magical cowboy that can get through to even the rankest horse is rampant–how many threads are there on this board where someone suggests that! The reality is much less romantic–many things aren’t fixable and people either find a way to live with the behavioral problem and/or someone gets hurt. And cowboys aren’t magical people–they are humans–humans that can get hurt, humans with families and loved ones. So there’s an ethical consideration to make when considering sending off a dangerous horse to a trainer or cowboy.

People also assume that rescuing a dangerous animal is their own business–after all it is their choice to take that risk if they want, right? Unfortunately, it’s really tough to contain an horse’s interactions to one person. There is unavoidably some risk for family members, vets, farriers, workers, momentarily unsupervised children, neighbors, etc.

[danacat]

[QUOTE=khall;8536924]
danacat I disagree. I had a WB filly that I bred and raised, she hit the ground not liking people too much (weird because her half sibs LOVE people). She would also try to be dominant to people but not to horses at the time I rehomed her (to a VERY good pro) at only 4 yrs old.

So I do think some horses are born this way, not made this way. [/QUOTE]

I thought we were discussing a mare who is 11 years old…OP has had mare for 4 years…so mare’s bad behavior started to appear at some point prior to her turning 7 but after she was quite nicely trained. The ‘nicely trained’ great under saddle part of her personality merely suggested to me that the mare was not born with a screw loose—

—and that conversely, something happened along the way to make her overly aggressive. Or from a medical standpoint, maybe she developed a tumor in her brain that is pressing on an area that triggers violence. Wild guess but I suppose it’s possible.

I don’t disagree that some horse are born with behavioral issues. With all the over breeding and lineage crosses (as in the case of dogs as well) it’s no wonder unsoundness – even of the mind-- has occurred. Or perhaps horses have always had, since the beginning of time, a physiological quirk in their DNA that allows for certain individuals to be born with an overly aggressive streak.

[danacat]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8537244]
Ultimately, though, when a horse is dangerous it really doesn’t matter “why.”

The idea of rescuing and taming a beautiful but unmanageable/ abused/ mistreated/ misunderstood animal is considered very romantic in our culture. Many people out there hold dearly to the notion that there is always some fix or cure for an animal with a serious behavioral problem. The notion of the magical cowboy that can get through to even the rankest horse is rampant.[/QUOTE]

As soon as we stop asking ‘WHY’…and as soon as we start to believe the WHY doesn’t matter…and as soon as we stop being ‘romantic’ (as you put it)…something wonderful in ourselves and something wonderful in our way that we view the horse…is diminished.

[AMWookey]

[QUOTE=danacat;8537576]
I thought we were discussing a mare who is 11 years old…OP has had mare for 4 years…so mare’s bad behavior started to appear at some point prior to her turning 7 but after she was quite nicely trained. The ‘nicely trained’ great under saddle part of her personality merely suggested to me that the mare was not born with a screw loose—

—and that conversely, something happened along the way to make her overly aggressive. Or from a medical standpoint, maybe she developed a tumor in her brain that is pressing on an area that triggers violence. Wild guess but I suppose it’s possible.

I don’t disagree that some horse are born with behavioral issues. With all the over breeding and lineage crosses (as in the case of dogs as well) it’s no wonder unsoundness – even of the mind-- has occurred. Or perhaps horses have always had, since the beginning of time, a physiological quirk in their DNA that allows for certain individuals to be born with an overly aggressive streak.[/QUOTE]

But OP stated that she was able ot handle her enough to continue riding and training. And that the previous owners handled her enough, with caution to train her. Maybe she has always been like that, but the owners thought that training under saddle and consistent brain work would help the mental issues on the ground, so continued training.

I say this as someone who owns a ‘dangerous’ horse who multiple people told me to put down after he attacked me once. He went into a ground work program, then an under saddle program as a last ditch effort to make him not a dangerous horse. Luckily for him, it worked. But he still gets a chain over his nose to and from the paddock, and I still warn people that while he looks so lovely, and he comes over all friendly, he will nip at you. With his ears forward. No warning. Because he is well trained, and because he is becoming nice under saddle, then the assumption would be that this came sometime after the training. No, he has always been a brat, had probably always been dangerous, but consistent work under saddle makes him 99% less dangerous.

[red_mares]

@danacat;8537576

I thought we were discussing a mare who is 11 years old…OP has had mare for 4 years…so mare’s bad behavior started to appear at some point prior to her turning 7 but after she was quite nicely trained. The ‘nicely trained’ great under saddle part of her personality merely suggested to me that the mare was not born with a screw loose—

Reread the OP. The mare was a mess BEFORE the OP bought her, they just didn’t tell her.

@Mardie Stel;8532130

After discussing in length with her previous owners about what she was like when they had her, I found out that she sent someone to the hospital once and that they ended up carrying around PVC pipe to scare her off. She has never been unsound or crabby while riding, she will just randomly become violent on the ground.

The OP did not create this problem. She may or may not have contributed, but she didn’t cause the issue. This is a big (part draft) mare with major issues.

If you want to assign blame or find out why, look to the previous owner. They had the mare for the bulk of her life. They got her as a yearling. I know a former PMU operation, that in & of itself does not make a colt bad. My gut says the mare has Rescue Syndrome - i.e. never corrected or mannered because she was a poor, neglected, abused, mishandled rescue - never mind she was bought as a yearling, and many yearlings don’t have much handling on purpose. Obviously, this is pure speculation on my part but that doesn’t make it wrong.

My BO had a Percheron mare that was a cupcake compared to what the OP has described. She only kicked and laid down in harness. Nobody shed any tears when she got hit by lightning. I’ve thanked God for it several times. It was a gift.

[khall]

Yeah, OP was sold a bill of goods and IMO has more than given this mare a fair shot. I am sorry, but a big half draft that goes after you with no provocation is a dangerous animal. Sending a person to the hospital and meaning to get said person is no little thing. I am no wilting violet, have handled stallions professionally and have the scars to prove it. Retraining can work when you know the triggers and can predict/redirect the horse, but when it comes out of the blue you always have to be on guard around these animals, not worth it IMO. I left the position where I handled the stallions for breeding after we got a stallion in who had put someone in the hospital and then he busted my lip going for my face as I was putting him back in his stall after collecting. One mean SOB, but was top producer of his breed so they put up with it.

[Guilherme]

I don’t get it. The world is awash in good horses languishing in poor conditions and we lavish resources on dangerous horses who have inflicted serious injury. And who continue to require “special handling” and restrictions and the like. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot. Over?

Aggressive behavior can develop without abusive human behavior as the trigger. As horses mature they go through multiple phases “cooperative behavior” where the amount of “co-operation” can vary. When we started my gelding under saddle as a late three year old he had a good basis in ground work and was very easy going under saddle. Then he entered the “teenaged years” and we had difficulties from time to time with him understanding that he was the junior member of our partnership. Fortunately, there’s not mean bone in his body and he has never offered any sort of aggression, even when strongly pressed. He’s older now and becoming more adult. He still needs to be pressed from time to time but it’s taking less pressure and less time as he matures. He’ll be seven this spring. I think he’s going to be a very nice horse for the next 20 years or so.

Folks get to spend their money on their horses as they wish. Still, keeping a horse that has demonstrated aggressive behavior and must be handled specially lest they demonstrate that behavior again is a very unwise, and potentially catastrophic, course of behavior. And if they take this horse out in public…that’s just plain irresponsible.

G.

[Mia_Sorella]

[QUOTE=danacat;8537588]
As soon as we stop asking ‘WHY’…and as soon as we start to believe the WHY doesn’t matter…and as soon as we stop being ‘romantic’ (as you put it)…something wonderful in ourselves and something wonderful in our way that we view the horse…is diminished.[/QUOTE]

I get where you’re coming from in theory; I’m a huge proponent of asking why and giving the horse the benefit of the doubt…with normal horses. There is no wonderment when one of these nasty animals has you on the ground and your life is flashing before your eyes.

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=danacat;8537588]
As soon as we stop asking ‘WHY’…and as soon as we start to believe the WHY doesn’t matter…and as soon as we stop being ‘romantic’ (as you put it)…something wonderful in ourselves and something wonderful in our way that we view the horse…is diminished.[/QUOTE]

But you when you stop asking “WHY” & accept a horse is damaged goods and needs to be put down, the connection between body & soul is not lost. I’d rather have a diminished view of a horse than be dead.

[Posting_Trot]

I also think that asking why can be an important thing to do, especially if finding out the answer will help in solving the problem.

But, many times one has to accept that a definitive answer to the question is not forthcoming, and that point, you basically have to deal with the horse you have in front of you. Not the horse it might have been had its life been different.

And a truly aggressive horse, a horse that comes after you and keeps coming (and a big horse at that), is too dangerous for most people to deal with. And I think that even most pros, unless the horse was amazingly, world-class spectacular at whatever its job was, would not want to deal with it either.

[China_Doll]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8533335]
Are you saying that you let her dictate her behavior to you? Because that just might be where this mare started to become dangerous. By figuring out she could be a bully and get away with it. I’ve found it very hard to correct in a big, mature horse that has already figured out that by acting the alpha in the equation, they can get away with a lot.
.[/QUOTE]HUH? Yes I let my very well mannered mare eat in peace as she prefers.

[China_Doll]

[QUOTE=gloriginger;8534256]
I disagree. OP said that the few times she has challenged the mare it escalated the aggression. I have known a few mares like this, they would fight back if they were challenged. Sometimes we are so quick to blame it on the owner, to me OP sounds like she is pretty experienced with horses, has explored all possible medical reasons, and has managed to be savvy enough with the horse to only be attacked twice in 4 years.

Or the horses I knew, one had a really dirty turn and double barrel kick that was completely unpredictable and happened so quick you didn’t have time to react. Her name was avalanche…

The other was a nasty horse, pinned her ears when you entered her stall, tried to bite when brushing her and she would cow kick. She was sold and I often wonder what became of her.

Some horses are just nasty…be it temperament or environment. But I just feel like there are way to many animals in the world to put up with jerks, horses, dogs anything. At the end of the day it costs just as much to feed a a-hole as it does to feed a nice well mannered horse.[/QUOTE]the one that backs down first loses. So let her get more aggressive and then overpower her and now you are boss mare.

[China_Doll]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8534260]
Same…

I wouldn’t be throwing ketamine needles at this mare just yet, based on what OP has provided us… note in her posts she words it in a way that suggests when the mare advances that the OP leaves/gets behind a fence… OP states she has backed down from this mare and if that is not a reinforcement for bad behavior IDK what is… OP I am not blaming you - if my safety was in jeopardy I would do the same, I am just pointing out it seems this may not be the best fit for you. Maybe a numbers thing – 2 bites in 4 years is not, IMHO, a horse that is trying to kill you…

Now, if she had this horse for say, four years, and the mare made an attempt to savage her on a monthly basis, I’d be saying she’s a rogue and deserves nothing but a hole in the ground… but in the OP’s description it appears this only happens when the mare is loose - probably food around, etc. It really sounds like the mare programmed her owners (OP) included into backing off when she isn’t “Feeling it” that day.

Again, two bites in four years is not a savage, rogue animal. I agree that it is time for the OP to move this mare on, but I think if she found a good trainer who was able to remedy the attitude it would be a better alternative.[/QUOTE] I watched a Clinton Anderson demo with a very aggressive mare and owner would run and hide. Mare was very aggressive. Clinton didn’t back down and showed the owner how to stand her ground and the horse quit the behavior. I think the video was over a few days of training. Most likely you could find it on google

[Pocket_Pony]

@danacat;8536822

Perhaps she was never socialized with other horses, and thus never learned how to behave in a herd situation, in the company of alphas and subordinates-- and just doesn’t know her place.

This could explain some people I know!

[Lord_Helpus]

OP, I am going to tell you about the research into a horses brain that I did when I was considering putting an old horse down.

Horses do not/cannot anticipate the future. They do not know that the sun will rise tomorrow. We are the ones who go through angst about euthanasia because we can see that there is a life after today.

Putting your horse down is not an unkindness to her. She has no concept that she is 11 and might live until 30. That is purely a human thought that we are projecting onto our horses.

Putting her down is not an unkindness to her. She will go to sleep and not wake up, having only known the great care and life you have given her.

I think worrying about her future with anyone else is valid – to say nothing of your liability if you sell her, even with full disclosure. If she were to severely hurt or kill someone else, the relatives of the dead person are not a party to your contract, and might easily come after you.

The ‘right’ thing is to put her down. As horse owners we owe our horses a good life and a gentle passing. Sending her down the road is not in her best interests.

[Cat_Tap]

I haven’t read all the posts but did not see whether this mare is kept alone or turned out with other horses. If she is on her own and having been a PMU foal maybe she has never been put in place.

I had a gelding that was an Orphan foal. He wasn’t mean but never learned to respect and understand other horses’ body language. Even the boss mare could not keep him away from the water trough if he wanted to drink. She would pin her ears, the other horses moved but he ignored her.

I will try not to make this too long. He was Ok to work around but did pull some unusual stunts while being ridden. One time while cantering a circle in the arena he bolted out of the door as there was a horse being loaded onto a trailer outside. He just wanted to see what was going on. Another time while riding inside the arena he wanted to join his buddies who were watching through the open door at the back. I wouldn’t let him turn so him climbed up the wall to get around. There were other incidents but the final straw was when he reared twice in a row without any reason obvious to me or any warning signs.

That is why I decided to put him down. It was sad because he had beautiful form over fences, was agile like a cat trough gymnastics and never refused a jump.

I called a friend who was a vet to come to put him down. This vet was also an ex rodeo rider, showed jumper and an all around good horseman. I explained the problems and then offered the horse to him with the provision that he could not move him on but would put him down if they couldn’t work things out.

This friend used some tough love, turned the horses out with the cows, which he hated, but had to go near them if he wanted to eat. No more coddling, 24/7 turn out etc. and lots of work. Blue tarps, barrels etc. didn’t phase him but apparently jumped up into a tree with rider on.

This horse is now in his 20s, won some jumper championships and eventually became a reliable lesson horse (for experienced riders). For me this was a good solution as he was able to live a useful life and apparently was enjoyed by those who rode him.