Reputable Breeders in Europe?

[QUOTE=leilatigress;6248163]
Last I checked 17 is a minor which means an adult is going to have to sign for those papers. Contract is all written up, monies paid, horse shipped…gets to barn and parents say no? Then what?

Being a mom, I’d have an absolute fit if my kiddo brought home a horse, signed legal documents, and spent a helluva lot of MY money without even notifying me.[/QUOTE]

I would find it completely unbelievable that a horse would be bought and paid for without the parents knowing that was being done. So, while yes, every breeder has the right to decline selling to someone for any reason they choose, it is a bit of a stretch to assume she didn’t have the full backing of her parents. There could be many reasons the girl was shopping on her own – but I doubt she was going to buy and pay for a horse without her parents knowledge. Just sayin’

We have imported several horses from Europe and we breed our own.
What difference does it make if someone wants to import or buy here?
It seems really childish to continue to berate posters on here every time they ask about importing instead of buying here.
Not only childish but doesn’t reflect well on US breeders as a whole.
So guys buck up and deal with it. Enough!:no:

I know that this is off topic to the OP’s post, but I feel it is necessary to defend myself on this board. As always, there are two sides to the story that SakuraHillFarm posted. First of all, I was 18 when I first contacted SHF in October (I am 2 months from turning 19 now). I answered all of her questions politely and promptly. I do understand wanting to make sure that the young mare was suitable for myself. Yes I have been training on my own since I was 17. My mom is my greatest support system and since I want to do this professionally, my parents have me working a lot on the business aspect of running our personal farm. At some point in my life I had to stop being dependent on a trainer and at that point I was ready. I listed my credentials, not bragging, but simply answering questions as I find it hard to be taken seriously at 18 without letting people know that I compete at the 1.50 level on a horse I have brought along myself.

I was extremely taken aback when not having a trainer was such an issue. It didn’t matter that the trainer I trained with for a year before going out on my own is in the top 10 of the USEF long list for this year. It also didn’t matter that I have started and brought along numerous young horses. The horse wasn’t suitable for me anyways since I needed a young horse with scope to do the 1.50/1.60s. What really made me run though was the fact that they wanted to keep the breeding rights for the mare. As a small breeder, if I’m buying a top jumping mare I certainly want to be the one breeding her.

I did end up going to Holland with a dutch friend and buying a now 7 year old mare, not a colt by the way. She will be moving up to the 1.30s at our next show. Due to being in Holland for a week and arranging the trip, I contacted SHF two weeks after she last emailed me, not months like she stated. I did however, have a fantastic experience with buschkn. I was planning to try a couple very high quality horses she had, but some amazing opportunities arose on some horses in Holland and I had to cancel my trip. I will be going to Holland late this week to buy another young horse for those wondering.

So to keep this post on topic, I definitely encourage people to buy in Europe as most breeders here just don’t have the quality of horses that even compares with the ones over there. Since I travel mostly to small private farms I can’t really recommend any breeders personally. I do know someone who had a very good experience with Team Nijhof though.

[QUOTE=Summit Springs Farm;6248760]
We have imported several horses from Europe and we breed our own.
What difference does it make if someone wants to import or buy here?
It seems really childish to continue to berate posters on here every time they ask about importing instead of buying here.
Not only childish but doesn’t reflect well on US breeders as a whole.
So guys buck up and deal with it. Enough!:no:[/QUOTE]

I think the posters on this thread were responding to the OP’s statement that horses were “cheaper” to import and that she could not afford to fly to Europe.

That was the reason ,I think, that most of the advice was to find a horse closer to home…

Honestly…I know gold winning Olympic level riders who work with trainers. I worked for the US Chef d’Eq. Everyone, even at the highest level, trains with someone. The moment you stop…or think you can go on your own…is when you will stop being as successful and competitive as you can. It is just not the hand holding, take a lesson every day/week sort of training that junior or ammy might do.

So I think you took the question wrong. Your answer should be…I’m a young professional starting my business with goals of riding for the team. My coach is ______ and I also ride with ________. This doesn’t mean you ride with them daily…just who you turn to for advice and to improve.

And asking a potential buyer that sort of question is not usual or wrong. I know a lot of players in my sport. If I know whose “program” someone comes from or who they tend to turn to for help…it is actually very insightful as to the type of rider/trainer I would expect them to be. I could be wrong…but when you are doing business with a stranger selling a living horse (whose reputation/development can affect your business)–I don’t think it is unfair at all to try to get to know who that person is.

Honestly…the horse world at the top levels is VERY small. Most people know each other. So when you are more unknown…you will need to spend time making connections…not burning bridges. (even if you choose not to buy a horse for that person at this time). It’s called being professional.

There are a lot of farms…especially in Europe…who will NOT sell you their top youngsters if they do not know you. Yes, they will sell you their culls…but not their best. And honestly…I’m the same way. I’m not selling my best youngster to just anyone who can write a check. I’d rather keep them and develop them myself (or sell to some one I know personally and trust) to ensure it is done well and not done badly or wasted (I’ve seen both happen to breeders).

Honestly…the horse world at the top levels is VERY small. Most people know each other. So when you are more unknown…you will need to spend time making connections…not burning bridges. (even if you choose not to buy a horse for that person at this time). It’s called being professional.

^^THIS^^
KaChing… You burned a bridge with SakuraHillFarm by writing a snide email and then took it the step further to come onto a public board to say that her young horse didn’t have the scope to move up to the 1.50/1.60??? :no: Why did you not just politely decline the horse and thank her for her time? That’s what you should’ve done. :eek: SHF cares about her horses…so sue her.

To be honest, I would think Sakura Hill burned the bridge rather than KaChing in this case. There are not very many people showing 1.50m who want young horses period, and also look to small US breeders first when they do shop.

I want to be sure my horses go to appropriate homes where their talents will be maximized. That said, I am happy to answer any and all questions someone has but I certainly don’t grill potential customers. I will ask what their goals are to be sure the horse in question would be suitable, but beyond that I assume I will gather plenty of information about the rider’s ability and suitability if they decide to make the trip to try my horses.

I think the overwhelming dependence on trainers is a uniquely US phenomenon and the HJ world in particular. I am not sure why that is but I think it’s unfortunate. I also am fairly certain that the overly emotional response by so many breeders and sellers here is yet another reason so many professionals shop in Europe.

wow I think SakuraHillFarm burned the bridge by bringing it to a public board and making KaChing defend herself. Did you read the so called snide email yourself.

KaChing is also entitled to her opinion as well. I personally thought it was a well written reply to a personal attack. Good luck KaChing and I hope you find a horse.

I love how a lot of people come on the boards and always assume that young professionals know nothing. Life is a journey of learning, making mistakes along the way is part of it.

[QUOTE=tailgate;6249136]
wow I think SakuraHillFarm burned the bridge by bringing it to a public board and making KaChing defend herself. Did you read the so called snide email yourself.

KaChing is also entitled to her opinion as well. I personally thought it was a well written reply to a personal attack. Good luck KaChing and I hope you find a horse.

I love how a lot of people come on the boards and always assume that young professionals know nothing. Life is a journey of learning, making mistakes along the way is part of it.[/QUOTE]

Really??? SakuraHillFarm didn’t identify “KaChing” in ANY way that would make someone know who she was…AT ALL. There was no need at all to defend…and I’m sure a lot more to the story. KaChing…by her post comes across very unprofessional…and young.

Yes…young make mistakes. And this is one. Hopefully she has great success with the horse she bought…but there was no need for her to “defend” herself when no one knew it was her.

ETA: If you want to be treated as professional…then you need to learn to act it. And doing business…and building a business…is learning to build relationships. Answering some questions…is a pretty easy way to start when you otherwise don’t know someone across the country (being polite is another). Something important to learn at a young age is you never know who those connections will be…so be nice to everyone.

[QUOTE=buschkn;6249134]

I want to be sure my horses go to appropriate homes where their talents will be maximized. That said, I am happy to answer any and all questions someone has but I certainly don’t grill potential customers. I will ask what their goals are to be sure the horse in question would be suitable, but beyond that I assume I will gather plenty of information about the rider’s ability and suitability if they decide to make the trip to try my horses.

I think the overwhelming dependence on trainers is a uniquely US phenomenon and the HJ world in particular. I am not sure why that is but I think it’s unfortunate. I also am fairly certain that the overly emotional response by so many breeders and sellers here is yet another reason so many professionals shop in Europe.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t and don’t grill a potential customer who I know…or who comes to me recommended from people I know. Same as anywhere in the world…and in most business/industries. Most business deals are not done with total strangers. There is a much higher risk when they are strangers. I think it also completely depends on the horse. If it is your top foal…top mare…top stallion. It is a different discussion. If your horse isn’t even on the market…it is a different discussion. If you are considering a partnership or syndication…it is a different conversation.

But I agree that I don’t understand over dependence on trainers…and suspect that it comes from the fact that most riders in the US start from day one in a structured setting rather than the back ground of having your horses in the back yard and learning in a more unstructured environment to start.

Sakura didnt out KaChing. She did that to herself.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6248896]
Honestly…I know gold winning Olympic level riders who work with trainers. I worked for the US Chef d’Eq. Everyone, even at the highest level, trains with someone. The moment you stop…or think you can go on your own…is when you will stop being as successful and competitive as you can. It is just not the hand holding, take a lesson every day/week sort of training that junior or ammy might do.

So I think you took the question wrong. Your answer should be…I’m a young professional starting my business with goals of riding for the team. My coach is ______ and I also ride with ________. This doesn’t mean you ride with them daily…just who you turn to for advice and to improve.

And asking a potential buyer that sort of question is not usual or wrong. I know a lot of players in my sport. If I know whose “program” someone comes from or who they tend to turn to for help…it is actually very insightful as to the type of rider/trainer I would expect them to be. I could be wrong…but when you are doing business with a stranger selling a living horse (whose reputation/development can affect your business)–I don’t think it is unfair at all to try to get to know who that person is.

Honestly…the horse world at the top levels is VERY small. Most people know each other. So when you are more unknown…you will need to spend time making connections…not burning bridges. (even if you choose not to buy a horse for that person at this time). It’s called being professional.

There are a lot of farms…especially in Europe…who will NOT sell you their top youngsters if they do not know you. Yes, they will sell you their culls…but not their best. And honestly…I’m the same way. I’m not selling my best youngster to just anyone who can write a check. I’d rather keep them and develop them myself (or sell to some one I know personally and trust) to ensure it is done well and not done badly or wasted (I’ve seen both happen to breeders).[/QUOTE]

I think asking questions about the new owners and their situation is very responsible. But lets face it, once that horse is sold, it’s welfare is out of your hands. But the next person/owner might be a nightmare and that is just the reality of selling horses, unlike dogs they are more of a commodity.
And I do not think that is matters so much if the young lady has a trainer or not. It always helps to have an independent eye but that doesn’t mean the horse will be abused or neglected. And obviously KaChing is able to reasonably utilize a horses potential. Maybe better than an average rider that is dependent on a trainer. And giving someone else “lessons” in how they should do business, regardless of their age, is somewhat presumptuous.
I don’t think the young trainer was that unprofessional, she just told her side of the story after it was already brought to the board, that she is a member of. And she was only insulting the horse if does have 1.5-1.6m potential in competition. Otherwise it isn’t that much of a insult as many jumper bred horses do not have that type of potential.

And as far as getting along with every other person in the horse world…seriously? One constant in the horse world is people with really different approaches.

PS- there are also lots of farms in Europe that sell youngsters for meat. And many would only refuse a sale because they thought they could get more money or get the horse to a better rider. If anything, NA breeders are much more sentimental. European breeders also utilize auctions more than we do, the person with the most money wins, no questions asked.

[QUOTE=About Time;6249233]
Sakura didnt out KaChing. She did that to herself.[/QUOTE]

And that isn’t the issue. The point was the story was told from both sides. Why is that a problem, regardless?

BTW, I think Sakura farms can use whatever criteria they want for selling their horses. And if they have strict policies, that is fine also.
But Sakura’s post did make the “17” year old look like a starred eyed chid, who was just wasting everyone’s time and had no way of practically purchasing a horse to import. If this young lady was 18 and did in fact import and train a youngster, she was a viable client by most standards, if not Sakura’s in particular. I do not think there is an issue with KaChing coming forward to say this. To berate her for not having a trainer or for responding is not necessary as the point is she was a viable customer by most standards.

[QUOTE=stoicfish;6249240
And as far as getting along with every other person in the horse world…seriously? One constant in the horse world is people with really different approaches.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say ‘get’ along with every other person in the horse world. I said part of learning to be a professional----in ANY profession—is learning how to deal with people and build relationships. This is most effectively done by being at least civil. I don’t nec. want to have a beer or be BFF with every client of mine. But I know how to be civil…and nice…EVEN if someone isn’t being civil to me. You want to develop a good reputation. You learn that while this deal may not work…if you don’t burn a bridge…other good may come of it.

All KaChing had to do was say in her email if she was tired of answering any questions was “thanks for your time, I’ve found another horse more suited for me at this time. Best of luck with your nice filly.”

THAT would have been professional…and this thread would have never gotten so off track. :wink:

[QUOTE=tailgate;6249136]

KaChing is also entitled to her opinion as well. I personally thought it was a well written reply to a personal attack. [/QUOTE]

It was in response to this. ^ As someone already pointed out, it’s not much of a personal attack when Sakura did not use this girl’s name in her post. She was stating a previous issue she had in regard to the OP’s post. No one knew who she was until she spoke up.

[QUOTE=About Time;6249233]
Sakura didnt out KaChing. She did that to herself.[/QUOTE]

This in spades.

If we ever want to know what stands in the way of the US being better breeders and becoming competitive with Europe this thread exemplifies it. As soon as there is a little blood in the water …what a disgraceful frenzy :no:

I don’t recall Sakura naming anyone or giving any specifics other then a potential client similar in age to the op. Very discreet and cautionary. There was no reason for KaChing to come and tell her tail of woe other then to be subversive and licentious.

[QUOTE=hackinaround;6249274]
This in spades.

If we ever want to know what stands in the way of the US being better breeders and becoming competitive with Europe this thread exemplifies it. As soon as there is a little blood in the water …what a disgraceful frenzy :no:

I don’t recall Sakura naming anyone or giving any specifics other then a potential client similar in age to the op. Very discreet and cautionary. There was no reason for KaChing to come and tell her tail of woe other then to be subversive and licentious.[/QUOTE]

Except the story was incorrect according to KaChing. So is correcting someone on the facts being “subversive and licentious”?
She was not 17, she actuall bought a mare and she dropped the sale due to the breeding rights being an issue, apparently more of an issue than the questions.

We had an inquiry from a young- 17- potential buyer in Canada. She had excellent credentials as a competitor, a rudimentary understanding of bloodlines, and an interest in buying a future high-level jumper from us. We spent some amount of time back-and-forth and I do believe that we were respectful and diplomatic in all our exchanges. Mindful of the difficulty inherent in raising and producing a high-level competitor, we did ask her who her trainer is —she had considerable accomplishments as a competitor—and she said that she did everything alone. We asked if there was input from her parents, perhaps— having in mind the fact that even the best of pros really do need a sounding board of some sort. No, everything was accomplished totally by herself according to her. Our question which we thought we had put to her diplomatically sufficed to make her withdraw from our exploration of what might suit her from among our young stock. A few months passed and we eventually received an email from her, boasting that she had just returned from a buying trip to Europe (her budget was quite high) and had bought a colt. AND not a single seller had asked her about trainers or parents, so there

[QUOTE=KaChing;6248831]

So to keep this post on topic, I definitely encourage people to buy in Europe as most breeders here just don’t have the quality of horses that even compares with the ones over there. Since I travel mostly to small private farms I can’t really recommend any breeders personally. I do know someone who had a very good experience with Team Nijhof though.[/QUOTE]

There again the mindset that US bred horses are not of quality.

[QUOTE=hackinaround;6249300]
There again the mindset that US bred horses are not of quality.[/QUOTE]

Well I personally think KaChing should be burnt at the stake becasue she wears really funny colored socks and goes to a different church than me - but I guess your reason can work too.

[QUOTE=stoicfish;6249297]
Except the story was incorrect according to KaChing. So is correcting someone on the facts being “subversive and licentious”?
She was not 17, she actuall bought a mare and she dropped the sale due to the breeding rights being an issue, apparently more of an issue than the questions.[/QUOTE]

Was she named or in anyway? Its that maturity talking again. She sounds like a fine rider and competitor yet perhaps rather then heading to a forum to defend herself when no personal blame was laid she should have taken some professional propriety and walked in the other direction.

Your assuming that the way either told their side was 100% just the way it happened. The remarked difference was Sakura was vague and discreet about who they encountered and KaChing felt the need to bleat about who what and why when it does nothing to change the outcome.