Yeah, with global warming especially, even many areas that didn’t have this issue as badly in the winter now do year 'round. Even during bitter winters, I always protected my dog with flea/tick topicals and she wasn’t outside 24/7. We did some rotating of different preventatives, since the bugs seemed to develop a tolerance to Frontline after a few years.
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This was not a global warming thing. It was winter, cold and snow, and had been winter cold and snow. My vet says ticks are still active in the winter so if your pet is going to be some place that there will be ticks then they need to be treated all winter.
I think the majority of people should be pointed to adopt don’t shop because those people can’t or won’t do the research and spend the money to actually purchase a dog from a reputable breeder. I’d much rather see a person walk into a shelter and adopt as opposed to a puppy mill (rampant in my area due to the amish) or a pet store.
But I also don’t have any problem with responsible breeders
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I don’t disagree with you but let’s talk about the outrageous, IMO, price of puppies from reputable breeders.
As I said previously, I understand that there is a lot of work and money that goes into reputable breeding; genetic testing of parents, stud fees, basic care and feeding of the litter when it arrives, and hopefully socialization to set them up for success. I just don’t see the value proposition of paying THOUSANDS of dollars for a pet puppy from a consumer perspective.
If we put aside the “can’t put a price on love” sentiment, and I’ll confess that I would not ever part with a dog of mine for any price, it seems the “reputable dog breeding industry” is not self-sustaining.
Why are the so called reputable breeders breeding in the first place? I believe it’s because they are seeking to produce an improved show dog, likely for themselves. Single puppy litters do not appear to be the norm, so let’s say a single breeding produces 5 puppies (I know this varies wildly by breed). Out of those 5 puppies, let’s be generous and say 2 are “show quality” now what to do with the remaining 3 other than to try to sell them for as much as possible to support the show dog habit? It seems to me to be an oversupply problem resulting from an ongoing crap shoot to get a winning show dog.
Add to this the standard practice of “re-homing” or “retiring to pet homes” finished show dogs (finished with titles I mean) or adults that didn’t pan out and it sure looks like they may love the breed, just not necessarily the individual dogs. At least not enough to give them a home for life.
I’m not advocating euthanizing the “pet puppies” from a show litter, I just think it outrageous for breeders to expect pet owners to subsidize their hobby but if they can find a market, good for them.
If we compare to horses, the mere fact that single births and gelding males are the norm in addition to the long gestation period, the population is limited. Even then, take a look at how many horses end up in rescue.
I think that if a person is not willing to provide a home for life for every dog they breed, they should be thinking twice about breeding. Yeah, I know “reputable breeders” say they’ll always take one of their puppies back, in fact that’s how we got our first basenji (the breeder got paid for him twice, she told me) I don’t believe they keep those dogs either.
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I can say that the cost of breeding (vet care, etc) means that it is not infrequent that the breeder is not actually making money on the puppies. So that price that you call crazy is the cost of breeding/whelping/etc quality dogs. An emergency C-section is expensive. Heck, even a planned C-section is expensive.
I can only comment on the people I know that breed. They breed not to make their next winning show dog, they breed because they love their breed and they want to make it better. Putting various titles on the dog is the bonus, not the cause. One woman breeds to make great quality family pets. Dogs that if the owners wanted to go show, they could and do well, but if they do not want to show they have a healthy pet with a great temperament. A good family pet is not a reject dog. A good family dog is the goal. And to this breeder a good family dog is also a show quality dog that is trainable ,well socialized, etc.
This breeder will for sure take back any dog that they have bred. That does not mean they then have to hold on to that dog forever. Your last paragraph makes it sound like if they take it back then they are wrong to find it another home.
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When I lived down south 100% kept my dog on flea/tick preventive year round.
Current dog is leash only in the winter, it’s generally below freezing here, my yard is sprayed and treated, he doesn’t play well with others so doesn’t interact with other dogs.
If he was loose, exploring and going in tall grass or temperatures are regularly above freezing, I would have him on meds.
I do worry about the chemicals and developing resistance to the meds, and a variety of things. I’m sure my vet rolls her eyes but when he’s off the meds he isn’t as itchy either.
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Sounds like you are just salty that breeders can and do charge large amounts for their puppies
Honestly yes, the breeders I know have their dogs for both show (or competing in whatever their breed does) and companionship. And they absolutely do take dogs back that they have bred. If they want to resell the animal, IDK how that is bad? If I sold a horse and it came back to me, I certainly wouldn’t be then obligated to give it away for free
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No argument here. If fact you are making my point for me; it’s not a money making proposition. People aren’t entitled to make money on whatever they choose to do. If the business plan is to price pet puppies to pay for all the costs of breeding, I’d say that’s pretty weak plan depending on a non-essential purchase from the consumers. There’s a reason laundromats are frequently cited as making millionaires; everyone needs clean clothes.
I’m glad you brought up C-sections. I scribed once for a big name judge who also breeds French bulldogs and confirmed that they are all whelped via C-section. Nature is trying to tell us something people!
Ah, but how is “better” judged if not at shows? What is “better” judged against if not the breed standard?
Good for this breeder. They must sell all puppies with full AKC papers (if in the US?) as opposed to limited registration because if she doesn’t then they can’t be shown anyway. Also, this assumes every puppy she breeds is show quality. I think that’s every breeder’s goal, but there are no guarantees and we’re back to the genetic crap shoot. Check out the movie Gattaca sometime.
That was not my intention, in fact I think most dogs are better off in pet homes than with breeders. My point was that breeders do not seem, IME, to provide forever homes to the dogs that they intentionally brought into the world. But then I keep my dogs and horses until they die, my personal ambitions do not play a role in those decisions.
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Well, I’m definitely salty, but that’s just my nature 
Breeders can charge whatever they want, I’m just not going to pay it or normalize it.
Again, I didn’t say that reselling the animal was bad, just pointing out that “I’ll always take the dog back” doesn’t mean they aren’t going to resell it.
As I said in my reply above, I keep my horses until they die so we’re different there too. In fact, the last horse I did sell I got back and kept until he died. It was heartbreaking to see where he had landed and I’m not going to do that again.
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Regarding “responsible breeders”: 2 of my dogs have come to me from breeders–1 because her ears were “too long”, and they preferred to place her rather than chase down points at smaller shows to title her and then breed to a short-eared male, and one who was returned to her breeder by people who were moving to the west coast, and who finally admitted 6 months later they didn’t have room for her in addition to the dogs they’d already moved with them.
I remain deeply appreciative of the ethics of both those breeders (one a Golden retriever, one an Irish setter).
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So @atlatl, am I reading your posts wrong? You basically feel that no one should breed anything and if they do breed it they should do so at a loss because it is not fair to charge what it costs to breed?
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What percentage of horses that are sold are owned by the people who bred them? Dogs? Someone bred them and, in the majority of cases, sold them.
I had three dogs a couple of years ago: two mastiff breeds and a chix. Two were rescues and one had been a show dog. I lost the two large dogs within six months from old age. It was awful. After losing the first one, I purchased a purebred dog after doing a ton of research on the breed and breeders.
I then was looking to adopt another large breed dog. I was turned down by rescues all over the southeast because my purebred dog wasn’t spayed. She was going to show and was not at the age I would spay her anyway. Having more than a few cats, dogs (big and small) and horses, I did not want to take a chance with a shelter dog with an unknown history. Though I kept my eye on what was available locally. After over six months trying to adopt, I purchased another purebred of the same breed. It was just after that I was approved by a really awesome Southeast rescue.
I am for both, responsible breeding, and adoption. The dogs can have issues either way. I just try to stack the odds in my favor, which isn’t always easy when you fall for one. The Cane Corso I took in off of facebook ended up being 13 instead of nine. I really think the only reason she lived another year is because she was so very happy on the farm. She was vibrant and literally perfect…until one day she wasn’t. I had the vet come to the farm to let her go.
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Do you actually know any show breeders? Most of what you describe is nothing like reality for the vast majority of breeders/show dogs.
Most purebred breeders love the breed, and aren’t looking to “breed a better show dog” for themselves, but to maintain a quality pool of breeding stock that are representative of the breed. They are essentially breed preservationists, but call themselves “fanciers.” And it doesn’t just apply to the show ring, but to temperament, working ability, hunting, versatility, etc.
The goal for most breeders isn’t the one better puppy to go and win something, but generations of consistent, sound, correct dogs based on the breed standard. And yes, that often includes titling to prove that correctness, but it doesn’t always.
So if you have a long, carefully selected and tested history of quality dogs who are proven for conformation and other aspects, you should expect the litters will be pretty consistent and won’t really end up with 2/5 as “show quality” and the other 3 as “pets only.” In my breed, it’s far more likely that a good breeder will have more “show quality” puppies than they have show homes. And many breeders are happy with that, so long as some continue to be proven.
But, not sure why those pet owners shouldn’t pay for the puppies - 5+ generations of correct, healthy, proven and health tested dogs are valuable. Even if you never show them.
As for “pet homes” being better than “breeders”…how would you know? Some of the best breeders in my breed raise their dogs like pets. They sleep in their beds, live in their homes, and they get to do lots of cool things like hunt, agility, obedience, etc, as well as go to shows. (Which, admittedly, isn’t really fun for a lot of dogs, but it’s not actually hard, either. They get a bath, hang out in a crate, get some yummy treats and then go home. Not a tough life on occasion.) I prefer not to send my dogs out with a handler because I can handle them and think that it’s better for them. But the better handlers treat their dogs really well, and it’s not a life of misery for the weeks they might be on the road.
As with everything - there are always bad ones - breeders, handlers, AND pet owners. It’s not really appropriate to generalize.
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What that poster described is actually pretty accurate to how chicken breeders function, honestly. Being one, I am perfectly happy with that, as excess chickens can be humanely butchered and eaten, no loss or abject suffering involved.
I have a lot of feelings about a lot of what has been brought up in this thread, not sure if I can accurately describe them all.
A big thing amongst the chicken/poultry fancy is trying to get everyday folks to seek out breeders and their birds because breeding and USING livestock is what ultimately PRESERVES it. Also many pushes for eating purebred poultry vs the commercial, because if you’re breeding to eat, you’re breeding to improve, and you’re keeping those lines alive and healthy, in both vigor and population. I think if we could get more people to buy from GOOD breeders (dogs) we would eventually see fewer of these poorly-bred and unfortunate rescue cases, as the market would dwindle.
I acquired an LGD puppy in September. The amount of people that automatically asked me, “Oh! Where did you adopt him from???” was shocking to me, honestly. I didn’t adopt him, I bought him. He’s a working dog, and will eventually have a job. I ended up just giving a vague geographical answer to these questions most of the time and that worked out, but yeesh. The undertone was that any other option than adoption would not be well-received.
Now that I have a giant breed puppy, I’m having more thoughts about spay/neuter as it will be important for the long term health of this animal I have now taken on. I definitely don’t want to neuter him before he’s a year old, and my vet did suggest outright, “So, we’ll want to get him neutered around 12 months, if you think you can wait that long?” Honestly, I want to wait at least 18 months, if not the full 2 years or more, depending. However, I was having quite a bit of anxiety over the idea, as we have never had a dog that hadn’t been neutered right around 6 months old (besides our Boxer that we spayed right after her first heat) and I was worried that he would turn into an absolute monster after 6 months or so. Because that’s a big message around here, spay/neuter or ELSE. Honestly, if he’s still a good, manageable boy at 18-24 months, I might seriously look into a vasectomy. I don’t want to have any oops litter contributions should he get loose, but being a huge dog when mature, I don’t mind giving him an extra year or two with his hormones if it works.
Rescues here are kind of iffy. There is one that I absolutely DETEST - they steal animals from people’s yards if they don’t like the way they seem to be taking care of them, they have a huge list of requirements for adopters (must have a fully fenced yard+++) but yet, play favorites with certain folks and adopt out dogs willy nilly to those that don’t meet the requirements but have some sort of relationship with the woman that runs it, etc. We do have a couple of decent ones though, and I wouldn’t mind adopting another house dog, etc.
On the vet bills and Go Fund Me front, I have a close acquaintance who ‘had’ to take her 7yo Rough Collie that she bought from an Amish outfit as a pup to the big emergency/specialist vet to find out what was wrong with him. $5500 later he’s now on meds and has an autoimmune disorder. She started a GFM for $7000 to help cover his vet bills. She has a full time job and always has. Kind of aghast at it, honestly…
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He is SOOOO FREAKING CUTE!!! I love him!!! I’m swooning
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So here’s a question.
Most of the reputable breeders appear to take back or rehome their dogs, charge a lot, and have waiting lists.
So if you “adopt” a purebred dog even from a “breed rescue” then are you more likely to be getting a puppy mill or backyard bred dog with health concerns? Especially if the first owners gave up because the dog had huge health issues?
I think the majority of dogs in general do not suffer from major health issues. Most dogs, purebred or otherwise, live relatively average lives, with a smaller proportion of dogs who suffer from serious medical issues (inherited or not).
So, in my opinion - dogs in rescues (including breed rescues) aren’t usually abandoned because of their health issues as much as generally bad decisions on the part of the owners. Like getting a very active breed and having no way to exercise it properly. Or a very smart breed and expecting it to sleep all day. Or herding breeds who nip at their toddlers when they run.
Some dogs do end up in rescue because of health issues, but good rescues typically try to sort that out before placement. I know the biggest breed rescue organization in my breed has a special fund to support the adoption of special needs and elderly dogs.
The best thing a rescue can do is help match the owner with the appropriate breed or individual dog. Not always possible, but I do think that’s the big difference between good breeders and bad - the good ones really try to make sure the placement will be successful by selecting the right home for the breed.
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Yup, yup and double yup. They wind up in rescue because:
- “I’m moving and I can’t take the dog.”
- “I can’t give the dog the attention he deserves.”
- “I bought this (enter entirely inappropriate breed) and I can’t handle him.”
- “I got the dog for my kid, and he’s not taking responsibility.”
- “Dog bit my toddler after my toddler poked him and pulled his ears”
- Dog was dumped, abandoned, stray, etc.
- Dog belonged to someone who died.
- “I just don’t want this dog anymore.”
- “I’m an idiot who should never have been given a dog to begin with.” Okay, I made that one up, but it’s kinda true.
When people contact our rescue about health issues they can’t handle, we help connect them with financial resources. And all the scenarios above happen FAR more than requests for medical assistance.
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Depends on a myriad of factors, I’d say, not the least of which is the particular rescue group involved.
The rescues I’ve adopted from are pretty straightforward with any history they have on the dog–one of my setters, for instance, had a PDA which was corrected with an embolization coil when she was a puppy–the rescue knew the breeder and obviously had a low opinion of them, but did not give me any names. They did give me her medical information, though.
Two of my goldens/golden crosses were strays pulled from shelters. Obviously little history there. But I’ve seen dogs on their page with full disclosure of any known medical issues, and they also have dogs (mainly older) who they place as “permanent fosters”. Dogs with known but manageable health issues, and the rescue subsidizes at least part of their expense.
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I think you are reading more into my posts than what is there. I tried to make sure I was presenting my own experiences and opinion and took care to not make broad sweeping statements such as what you did above.
Just like horses, any puppy is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. I am not willing to pay $3K for a puppy so that, in addition to my social conscience, is what drove me to adopt from a rescue. YMMV and I’m not judging others who choose to buy purebred as I said I did so for close to 40 years.
I am simply observing that breeding dogs, to produce show dogs or to “improve the breed”, does not seem to be a money making proposition for many reasons, some of which you yourself cited. I think the biggest reason is the unpredictability of the result of any breeding. I offered the opinion that if a litter produces puppies that do not meet the breeder’s goal, they are still, IMO, responsible for those puppies.
If we can use a basic manufacturing analogy, the maker of any product seeks to minimize “waste” in order to improve their profit margin. Reputable breeders can and do try to make the best breedings that they can but reality is that some are better at it than others and not every puppy is going to be show quality or improve the breed so there is uncontrolled “waste” in the process. Add in how we’re talking about a non-essential (see above analogy to laundromats) I don’t see how it can be a money making proposition in the best of situations.
@can_t_re The difference between horse and dog breeders is the volume, as I already pointed out.
@S1969 Yes, I do know show breeders, several in fact. I also have friends who show in confirmation and agility. Perhaps you missed the bit in my post where I mentioned the conversation I had last week with a show breeder, granted not one I’d say I “know.”
As far as “knowing” pet homes are better than breeders, I didn’t said I did, I said I “think.” Standard hierarchy is: I think, then I believe, then I know. But you go ahead and be outraged if it makes you feel better. Also, had you taken that statement in context you’d have seen that it was regarding the rehoming of retired show dogs. Is that an alien concept to you? I’m not the one generalizing.
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