Requesting genetic testing on a horse for sale (or: How to not buy a horse, I guess)

[cardinale]

If a prospective purchaser wishes to have a certain genetic test done, what is the etiquette for requesting the test? Wait to do it as part of a full-fledged PPE, or is it reasonable to ask the seller for the test result beforehand?

In this case it’s a draft cross with a sire of a breed known to have a significant incidence of PSSM1. The seller claimed never to have heard of it (I believe her and that she never checked the status of the sire). I was very diplomatic but she could tell I wouldn’t buy the horse without test results and not if the horse was positive. I didn’t specifically state that the testing had to be done PPE but was hoping she would test first.

She said she’d ask her vet (it’s a simple hair test) but I never heard back. Clearly I spooked her. The horse has been for sale for a long time so it’s not as though she’s overrun with buyers.

I guess for a seller there’s no point in doing it–if the horse tests positive, they’re up a creek with disclosure from then on. But, as a buyer why proceed with an expensive PPE (albeit this is a yearling) on a draft cross without knowing PSSM1 status first? Oh well, I needed another horse like a hole in the head…

[Libby2563]

Are you expecting to pay for the test yourself, or do you think she should?

[cardinale]

It’s never gotten to that point. Where it stands is that she wanted to ask her vet about it, then was going to get back to me. I think she doesn’t want to have it done. Perhaps she researched PSSM1 after our conversation and discovered that ~2/3 of the sire’s breed carry it.

I would pay/would have paid, of course and in hindsight should have made that clear from the get-go, but don’t think it would have mattered. Also, she has a pretty high price on this horse for what it is so in the big scheme of things the cost of the test is trivial.

FWIW during the conversation, which I thought went well,she was very chatty and positive; I couldn’t pick up any negativity or reluctance to test. Shows how much I know.

[outerbanks77]

When I was selling a QH I had the 5-panel run on her prior to marketing. It’s pretty standard to state results in ads, and I figured it was better to have out of the way (I already knew she was HYPP n/n).

I could see the potential buyer pool for this horse being less aware, so the buyer might just want to hold out for a seller who won’t ask, rather than finding out that the horse has PSSM and them have to disclose and probably lower the price substantially.

[poltroon]

If you’re interested in the horse, you could ask for the testing before you do a full vetting. It’s a hair sample so doesn’t go through the vet, you can just get the hair and send it in.

[cardinale]

@outerbanks77

I could see the potential buyer pool for this horse being less aware, so the buyer might just want to hold out for a seller who won’t ask,

Yes, it’s COTH’s fault for educating me. Otherwise I probably wouldn’t have known about the prevalence in draft breeds and might have blundered into a problem. Holding out for a buyer who didn’t ask such a pesky question is exactly what I think she’s doing.

Running a 5- or 7-panel test on QHs is pretty standard and even expected nowadays. Apparently asking for a specific test in a draft breed hasn’t gotten enough traction yet to be widely acceptable.

poltroon, that’s what I basically asked her–would she agree to have the test run now, before I did a PPE. She said she would ask her vet–which was reasonable–then disappeared.

[islgrl]

When I was shopping this past winter I required a PSSM neg before I would commit. I was only shopping because my horse had to be retired for PSS2/MFM. In those that hadn’t been tested I was willing to pay for it if I got that far…

[Lunabear1988]

I did a five panel test on a QH I bought. We did the basic PPE first which was clean. Then I believe I did the test, took a few days for results. I can’t remember if I put a deposit down or not. Or if the buyer knew I was serious since I had done a PPE. She was extremely reasonable about it though.

Editing to add, I believe I paid for the test myself.

[MorganMaresVT]

PSSM1 is a touchy topic in Morgans these days. Having personally had a PSSM1 positive Morgan, who had previously been owned by someone who “didn’t believe in all that stuff,” I would not buy another without test results on file, or cleared by parentage. I have tested all of mine even though they are not breeding stock, recorded their results in the online Morgan Health Database, and am getting it added to their permanent registry records, which became an option this year.

I would absolutely offer to pay for genetic testing as part of a PPE, but also expect to lose out on the sale to someone who was willing to buy without having the results on hand.

[Incantation]

How did you test for PSSM2? I was told only a muscle biopsy was accurate.

To the OP, I think you are right and she would rather not know. You could contact her again and let her know you would do it as part of a PPE and see what she says. I bought a young mare without testing. I was going to an then didn’t in the end and very much regret it. She is n/p1.

[cardinale]

@MorganMaresVT

I would absolutely offer to pay for genetic testing as part of a PPE, but also expect to lose out on the sale to someone who was willing to buy without having the results on hand.

Yeah, that’s where it stands in my case. Seller not interested in testing before PPE. When I spoke with her I initially asked whether she knew the status of the sire because the dam was from a breed unlikely to have it, so that would have been good enough to proceed.

In hindsight, and if I were seriously interested in another draft cross bred by someone who seems unlikely to know about PSSM1, the way I would proceed is to simply have a PPE done and as part of that, have the vet take a hair sample to send in for testing. That way, it’s simply part of the PPE; the seller might not even realize it’s being done.

[islgrl]

@Incantation

How did you test for PSSM2? I was told only a muscle biopsy was accurate.

I did the hair test through Equisec. I am well aware its very controversial before anyone hops on to discredit what I did. With my horse his muscle biopsy was negative. However, my vet said he had EVERY symptom and hallmark of a muscle disorder so she suggested it. She was right. His diagnosis was in line with all of his symptoms.

[poltroon]

@cardinale

In hindsight, and if I were seriously interested in another draft cross bred by someone who seems unlikely to know about PSSM1, the way I would proceed is to simply have a PPE done and as part of that, have the vet take a hair sample to send in for testing. That way, it’s simply part of the PPE; the seller might not even realize it’s being done.

Honestly though, if the result is a dealbreaker for me I’m going to be a little salty about paying for a $1000 PPE if I would eliminate the horse with a $200 hair test.

[cardinale]

@poltroon

’m going to be a little salty about paying for a $1000 PPE

The saving grace in this case is that the horse was only a yearling, so presumably the PPE would be basically a health check and exam. Not sure how many rads would be indicated, although the seller does longe her in the sales video .

[Xanthoria]

Having had a horse with PSSM type two and MFM when I was horse hunting I was very anxious to avoid those issues. But of course, by the time the test results will come back, the horses would’ve been sold if it was any good. And asking a seller to do a muscle biopsy is a real non-starter… So you’re stuck with the hair test

I ended up buying a four year-old in work that showed no signs of issues as it was the only real way to somewhat avoid the risk.

I think over time that this issue is going to affect breeders more and more, and eventually they will start testing their breeding stocks because they won’t be able to sell the babies otherwise. At least I hope that’s what happens…

[cardinale]

@Xanthoria

I think over time that this issue is going to affect breeders more and more, and eventually they will start testing their breeding stocks because they won’t be able to sell the babies otherwise.

The problem with rooting out carriers among breeding stock producing draft crosses is that the people who want to cross their QH, Arabian, etc. mare to a draft stallion might not be educated in depth on draft horse heritable diseases. And, it seems as though many of these draft stallions are owned by similar people, or e.g. Amish farmers who also might not be (or care to be) well informed.

[Incantation]

@Xanthoria

I think over time that this issue is going to affect breeders more and more, and eventually they will start testing their breeding stocks because they won’t be able to sell the babies otherwise.

Watching the online auctions and people buying obviously unsound or bilaterally unsound horses I’m not optimistic. I wish they would x-ray for ECVM before breeding too, but I am not seeing much of that at least for the lower end horses (<20k).

I have been looking in the mostly sub 15k range and have found a lot of unsound horses. Everything from horses moving ok but with contracted heels and very deep sulcus thrush ($15k), bilaterally lame in front with thin soles and suspected (by me) previous laminitis episode(s) ($15k), to uneven muscling behind and unwillingness to take a lead ($9500) all the way to head bobing lame($8k). Most of the horses I have looked at have had terrible hoof care, and many have been sore through the SI.

Horse hunting sucks!

[Xanthoria]

I look at it like HYPP or five panel testing as a whole. Routine testing for those things. wasn’t common 10 years ago, and now most quality quarter horses will have been tested.

I’m not saying the lower end of the market won’t always be a disaster zone.

[anonevent]

I would condition my offer on the results of the test

[Paint_Party]

I would put up a good faith deposit that if the hair test came back negative and I did NOT proceed with the full PPE, then I’d lose the deposit. However, if the hair test came back positive, I would get my deposit back and I would not buy the horse. If the seller wanted to completely avoid the hair test that would be a deal breaker for me in this case.