Resources for vitamin/mineral supplement amounts in horses

[Demerara_Stables]

TLDR I’m looking for research (not opinion) on amounts of vitamins/minerals/amino acids a horse should have per day.

Longer story: just got a new horse in last week, she’s on a ton of SmartPak supplements. I’m not a huge fan of SP because of the waste and I hate opening those damn things. I also think a lot of people buy into supplements because of marketing or pseudo science and a lot of them aren’t needed. My understanding (I could be totally wrong) was that Platinum Performance was one of the few companies that had research to back up their supplements and the levels in them. My horses have been on PP CJ for years and I’ve had great results.

However, I just compared levels in all of the SmartPak supplements this horse is on to the PP CJ and they’re all much higher, sometimes more that double the PP level. Am I missing something? Are the higher levels necessary?

The horse is doing well on the SP, but if it’s 1) more expensive than PP, and 2) is providing “wasted” ingredients, then the owner is open to switching to PP. Switching to PP would make my life slightly easier but all I care is that the horse is getting what she needs.

[TinFoilHat]

I referenced these last year as I was figuring out and calculating my guy’s ratios:

Nutritional Requirements of Horses and Other Equids - Management and Nutrition...

Feeding Horses

Ultimately, though, I had my vet do a panel and just supplemented according to what he needed (not helpful for you - I know you’re just trying to figure out a more general number)

[FjordBCRF]

What all is the horse on?

The NRC is the horsey nutrition bible. You can also always work with a nutritionist as well. I did that to make sure I wasn’t missing anything.

[JB]

Plug your horse’s details - age, weight, workload - in here and you’ll find all the basic requirements
Nutrient Requirements of Horses - Working Doc

Supplements are to fill in gaps left by the forage plus (if applicable) feed.

You can’t do blood work to determine nutritional status beyond a few things, like selenium and Vit E. Copper is kinda-sorta. The rest are indicative of disease status because they are too tightly controlled by the body, as being too high or too low in the blood is a health risk.

[joiedevie99]

I ended up subscribing to Feed XL because the forage is such a huge portion of every nutrient. It allowed me to input the test results of my hay, and to make educated guesses when we have small loads of hay that are not worth testing.

[candyappy]

If it is working for the horse and her owner then I wouldn’t rock the boat and mess with success. Really you are just opening those little containers on 1 horse?

[Demerara_Stables]

I am a more curious about what the horse actually needs and not trying to mess with success. If the owner is paying double or triple monthly for supplements that her horse is just pooping out then it is my job as her trainer to advise her as such.

[candyappy]

@Demerara_Stables

I am a more curious about what the horse actually needs and not trying to mess with success. If the owner is paying double or triple monthly for supplements that her horse is just pooping out then it is my job as her trainer to advise her as such.

I guess , but if you can’t check what the horse actually needs by blood work results how will you ever know? What would you have them drop and why?

I also think that dishing up all the same supplements out of their containers will take just as long and is a lot more work.

[Posting_Trot]

It should be pretty easy to figure out what the owner is spending on Smart pak supplements and compare that to Platinum Performance supps. When I’ve done head to head comparisons between the two, it has seemed like the smartpak supplements cost less per serving than the comparable PP supplements. (And that’s not taking into account the different level of nutrients, etc.) in each.

For example, the SmartStride pellets (a joint supplement) that I feed my horse are $1.78/day. The PP CJ is $6.39 per day. Granted the two supplements have different ingredients, although both are meant to be joint supplements. But you could add a lot of additional Smartpak supplements to bring it up to the cost of the PP CJ.

[JB]

@candyappy

but if you can’t check what the horse actually needs by blood work results how will you ever know?

By using the link I provided you have a minimum nutritional requirement for all the nutrients. Even if you’re starting with an average hay analysis, which you could get from Equi-Analytical, you’d have some general idea whether a set of supplements is providing WAY more than what’s needed, or providing things in inconsequential amounts and therefore a waste of $$.

The basic PP supplement is generally a waste of $$ because it doesn’t contain enough of enough things to really make an impact. 1.4gm lysine is pretty useless. 14mg copper is pretty useless. Less than 1gm of Ca and P might as well not be there

The additional joint ingredients in the CJ are relatively worthwhile, but you can get similar products for a whole lot less

[JB]

Keep in mind that a very large % of intrinsic iron - forage, soil, water - isn’t available to the horse.

AND, horses have a hormone which turns down iron uptake when there’s enough in the body.

There’s WAY more concern about iron than there needs to be.

Most people don’t have any idea their horses are getting 4-5x the iron they need just from their forage alone, because of the 2 things above.

[Demerara_Stables]

Maybe I will check bloodwork - I don’t know yet. But what I’m looking for right now is a baseline of what a horse of this size and workload should get.

I’m not sure if the horse will need 5 different supplements, maybe she only needs 2, and that’s why I’m here.

[Angela_Freda]

@Demerara_Stables

Longer story: just got a new horse in last week, she’s on a ton of SmartPak supplements

@Demerara_Stables

I am a more curious about what the horse actually needs and not trying to mess with success. If the owner is paying double or triple monthly for supplements that her horse is just pooping out then it is my job as her trainer to advise her as such.

So it’s not your horse, it’s a boarder?
Did they ask you to change what the horse gets?

[Demerara_Stables]

@Posting_Trot

For example, the SmartStride pellets (a joint supplement) that I feed my horse are $1.78/day. The PP CJ is $6.39 per day. Granted the two supplements have different ingredients, although both are meant to be joint supplements. But you could add a lot of additional Smartpak supplements to bring it up to the cost of the PP CJ.

That’s a fair point. Mine has been on the PP for ~10 years, and I’ve been very happy with it (excellent weight, the CJ keeps her comfortable, shiny coat, great feet, etc). I regularly get compliments on her condition at her age.

20 in this photo:

Sure, she could just have great genes but I certainly don’t think my particular horse needs to have more of anything, so maybe this other horse doesn’t either. I know the PP is pricey but I’m willing to pay the price for something that I think is keeping my horse in excellent condition, and my client feels the same way.

[JB]

@Demerara_Stables

Maybe I will check bloodwork - I don’t know yet.

Unless you’re after Se and Vit E, just don’t bother, there’s nothing to be discovered there when it comes to diet. And if it’s not your horse, it’s not like you can have your vet do it.

Use the link I provided. That’s your baseline, as best as the info you have to entere.

[Demerara_Stables]

It’s a client - I’m a trainer.

[Angela_Freda]

I agree, the beauty of smartpaks for a big, busy barn is that anyone can easily, consistently provide the necessary supplements.
When a trainer is busy with lots of other pots on the stove, streamlining certain jobs is far smarter than monkeying with what already works.
At minimum, first give the horse and client time to settle in before messing with things and then only when there’s a sound reason to do so.
.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Angela_Freda

I agree, the beauty of smartpaks for a big, busy barn is that anyone can easily, consistently provide the necessary supplements.
When a trainer is busy with lots of other pots on the stove, streamlining certain jobs is far smarter than monkeying with what already works.
At minimum, first give the horse and client time to settle in before messing with things and then when there’s a sound reason to do so.

I know you don’t know me or my program, but I’ve been doing this a long time and there are reasons I do things and reasons I want things a certain way, none of which I need to explain here. I specifically came to ask for resources for figuring out baseline levels. I will run my program as I see fit, which is putting the horse at the forefront of the program, not making things convenient for a “big, busy barn” (which I am not).

[FjordBCRF]

@Demerara_Stables

I will run my program as I see fit, which is putting the horse at the forefront of the program

I’m confused here. You don’t seemed super informed on nutrition (no offense intended) and most trainers/barn owners I know really aren’t. Reading this, it seems your motivations are more around smartpaks being a PITA (which I don’t disagree with) and wanting the boarder to just get on your program because it works for you.

You never answered what all the supplements were this horse is on either which would also be helpful. Understanding why the owner chose them would also be relevant.

@Demerara_Stables

My understanding (I could be totally wrong) was that Platinum Performance was one of the few companies that had research to back up their supplements and the levels in them.

I also really don’t understand this. Any feed or supplement is required to give a guaranteed analysis of what’s in the product. What kind of research are you referring to that would tell anything additional “levels wise” what’s in the product?

[JB]

@Demerara_Stables

My understanding (I could be totally wrong) was that Platinum Performance was one of the few companies that had research to back up their supplements

I’m not sure if they actually test their supplements. Supplements, especially general supps, are incredibly hard to do testing on. They can say that they use X ingredienta, and maybe also in Y amount, because that’s what other research looked at .

@Demerara_Stables

and the levels in them.

Any supplement with a NASC seal has in it, what the label says. But that’s ALL the seal means. That’s doesn’t mean it’s useless, as a lot of supplements have been found to NOT have levels on the GA, and most aren’t tested at all, so at least it’s nice to know you can trust the GA is the real GA. But that has absolutely nothing to with any claims the product makes. And in the case of PP (because I pulled the numbers above), who cares if there’s truly 14mg of copper, when an 1100lb horse requires at least 100mg and his hay is likely providing less than 50mg.