Resources for vitamin/mineral supplement amounts in horses

[fivestrideline]

My impression (and boy do I crunch numbers) is that the PP is WAY overpriced in almost every single one of their supps. Nothing they have can’t be gotten cheaper, and most of their actives are in such small amounts they’re basically useless.

Same goes for SP in some cases, though they have published research on some of their supplements (their gastric line I believe being one).

JB’s link is great. Spending $6+ a day for mostly low dose actives is wild to me - I spent $3 max a day with a rehabbing horse on some high dose expensive things (natural E ain’t cheap).

However, the boarder and horse owner in me says don’t touch what ain’t broken - unless the client asks, I wouldn’t be messing with their program. If you want bulk tubs because that works better, they can switch to those from SP. Or if you want twist lid cups or baggies, that’s reasonable too! But I would be miffed as a client to be asked to switch to the BO’s favorite supp line or company.

[Demerara_Stables]

Good to know, thank you!!

[Demerara_Stables]

@fivestrideline

However, the boarder and horse owner in me says don’t touch what ain’t broken - unless the client asks, I wouldn’t be messing with their program. If you want bulk tubs because that works better, they can switch to those from SP. Or if you want twist lid cups or baggies, that’s reasonable too! But I would be miffed as a client to be asked to switch to the BO’s favorite supp line or company.

Because two people have mentioned this - I asked the owner when she arrived what the horse was on, and was given her SP, a separate gut supplement, and a jug of something from 100X Equine. Seemed like a lot for an 8yo, so I asked what the SP supps were, to which the owner replied “I don’t know, my last trainer set them up for me.” In my book, huge red flag. I don’t want to be one of those trainers! So I took the list of SP supps and looked them all up last night, and came up with the question in my first post - what should the horse get? Again, if the horse truly needs this stuff, great, we will stay with it. But with an uneducated owner, it’s my job as her trainer to 1) figure out what the horse actually needs, and 2) educate the owner about what that is and why.

I’m glad that I have the totality of equine knowledge at my fingertips here!

[FjordBCRF]

@fivestrideline

My impression (and boy do I crunch numbers) is that the PP is WAY overpriced in almost every single one of their supps.

I had my guy on PPGI for a summer trying to address FWS (which it didn’t but I like the GI support). He basically getting the same thing now doing it with individual supplements at a fraction of the cost.

[FjordBCRF]

@Demerara_Stables

I asked what the SP supps were, to which the owner replied “I don’t know, my last trainer set them up for me.” In my book, huge red flag.

Well that’s not helpful

[Demerara_Stables]

Right?

This kind of stuff really bugs me - it extends into training even more often. “Why are you doing XYZ?” “Oh because my trainer said so.”

I am admittedly not very educated on nutrition, so I figured this would be a perfect opportunity to learn something.

[Djones]

I’m the boarder and student who knows more than my riding instructor does about nutrition and horse management lol. I come for the dressage thanks, I’ll do the managing. I can’t fathom having no idea what my horses eat or how they live. I’ve had them at home too long.

[trubandloki]

@fivestrideline

However, the boarder and horse owner in me says don’t touch what ain’t broken - unless the client asks, I wouldn’t be messing with their program. If you want bulk tubs because that works better, they can switch to those from SP. Or if you want twist lid cups or baggies, that’s reasonable too! But I would be miffed as a client to be asked to switch to the BO’s favorite supp line or company.

I would also be miffed if, after I moved into a barn the person in charge decided to announce my supplements were too much of a hassle to feed.

@Demerara_Stables, if you hate Smartpak, which is something you are allowed to do, then please, moving forward, make that clear in your boarding contract so people can decide if coming to your barn is something that they want to do knowing they will have to change their horse’s supplements.

I am laughing because right now I could not tell you the name of the supplements my horse is on because Smartpak has changed their name enough times that I just do not bother to remember anymore.

[Demerara_Stables]

@trubandloki I’m just going to leave this here for you:

@Demerara_Stables

Again, if the horse truly needs this stuff, great, we will stay with it. But with an uneducated owner, it’s my job as her trainer to 1) figure out what the horse actually needs, and 2) educate the owner about what that is and why.

[Angela_Freda]

@Demerara_Stables

Seemed like a lot for an 8yo, so I asked what the SP supps were, to which the owner replied “I don’t know, my last trainer set them up for me.” In my book, huge red flag. I don’t want to be one of those trainers!

I don’t understand, why is it a red flag, and what kind of trainer do you mean?

@Demerara_Stables

But with an uneducated owner, it’s my job as her trainer to 1) figure out what the horse actually needs, and 2) educate the owner about what that is and why.

I tend to work with people more knowledgeable than me, who’s opinion I trust.
Maybe your new client trusted prior trainer, as she appears to now trust you also… 🤷

[Posting_Trot]

@Demerara_Stables–Your horse is beautiful, and I’m totally in the camp of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” If your horse is happy, well, and looks that good on the PP CJ then it certainly doesn’t need fixing in her case.

While it isn’t helpful that the boarder herself doesn’t know what supplements the horse is on, that doesn’t mean that the supplements serve no purpose. It may be that her previous trainer did a lot of research and knew what that particular horse needed. (Of course it’s also possible that the trainer simply had a favorite list of supplements that she put all of her clients’ horses on).

I guess my takeaway is that the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” maybe also applies to your client’s horse. If you step back and look at the horse and how it’s going, it’s temperament, etc., what do you see? Is it broke?

[Demerara_Stables]

The kind that just tells the client what to do or what to buy without explaining why or at LEAST telling her what it is (sure, the owner could have looked it up, but shouldn’t the trainer have said X, Y, and Z?).

Red flag because of the above. Does this trainer know anything about nutrition? What is the reason the horse is on these things?

[Angela_Freda]

@Demerara_Stables

The kind that just tells the client what to do or what to buy without explaining why or at LEAST telling her what it is (sure, the owner could have looked it up, but shouldn’t the trainer have said X, Y, and Z?).

Or maybe the client doesn’t choose to know or learn.

@Demerara_Stables

Red flag because of the above. Does this trainer know anything about nutrition? What is the reason the horse is on these things?

Well, I mean, it seems you’re not actually sure either, so … Good that you’re asking more knowledgeable people on coth, but to suggest that the client not knowing means prior trainer didn’t isn’t, imo, a good way for any pro to publicly talk about other trainers.
It’s a small world.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Posting_Trot

It may be that her previous trainer did a lot of research and knew what that particular horse needed. (Of course it’s also possible that the trainer simply had a favorite list of supplements that she put all of her clients’ horses on).

Yes, I know nothing about this trainer, so I’m going to figure out myself what the horse should be on.

@Posting_Trot

I guess my takeaway is that the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” maybe also applies to your client’s horse. If you step back and look at the horse and how it’s going, it’s temperament, etc., what do you see? Is it broke?

1. this horse is with me for training and rehab. she has years of soundness issues (at 8!) that I don’t yet know where they came from, and certainly have more than one cause.

2. I don’t know yet if this horse is broke or not. I know it doesn’t have good muscle tone, but it’s also not been worked consistently and had very limited (or no) turnout because of lameness issues. Her coat and feet look decent, but she has some food aggression and general anxiety. Those could have a myriad of causes, and to be sure, I’m not going to immediately change what this horse is getting. However, I owe it to the horse and the owner to do my due diligence to find out the right solution for them (which may include fewer supplements to save money - or it may not).

Thanks for the compliment about my kid.

[Demerara_Stables]

Well it’s a good thing that I didn’t mention the trainer’s, owner’s, or horse’s name then, isn’t it.

I’m going to end this line of discussion as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Angela_Freda]

@Demerara_Stables

this horse is with me for training and rehab. she has years of soundness issues (at 8!) that I don’t yet know where they came from, and certainly have more than one cause.

That IS troubling, to see a chronically lame horse with someone who claims to be a trainer.
Sad, really. I hope the horse hasn’t been out competing!
.

[Demerara_Stables]

No, she hasn’t been showing. The owner is trying to do right by her horse, and I don’t fault the trainer for the horse being lame, certainly it could just have physical problems. But I do want to do everything I can to get the horse sound and happy, and I think a large part of that is making sure the nutrition is correct.

[Simkie]

I’d approach this from the other side–what in the Platinum Performance supplement is meeting your (your horses) needs?

It’s a decent joint supplement with some additional light fortification. But it’s not a comprehensive vitamin/mineral supplement, or amino acid supplement, or hoof supplement.

Much easier to compare to whatever smart paks this horse showed up with if you have a handle on what the Platinum Performance is contributing.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Simkie

I’d approach this from the other side–what in the Platinum Performance supplement is meeting your (your horses) needs?

As I’ve learned today, not much?

[fivestrideline]

@Demerara_Stables I think your real question got lost in the weeds of the details (whether or not the old trainer was qualified, whether PP or SP is better or more researched, whether the client is uneducated or just doesn’t care, etc). If the client doesn’t know what the horse is on or why, then if they are alright with you fiddling I think you have a chance to save them some money.

I’d start with looking at the smartpaks - they literally print what each supp is on each well, and how much. The 100X will say what it is (and they really only have a few products), same with the gut supp. Then you have an idea of what the horse is currently having added to her ration - even if the owner doesn’t choose to continue on a perfectly equivalent program, at least you know what they might have been trying to accomplish.

I’d start with the link above getting an idea what might be missing in YOUR feeding program for that horse - Cu/Zn? E? Etc. Then look at what the horse was getting before and see if there’s an equivalent product that makes sense and works for your program (like a gut supp or MSM/chondroitin). I’d inform the owner that XYZ is to balance what she needs in her diet on top of her grain/forage, and ABC is “extra” but might have an impact on her gut or joints, and let the client choose what they want to provide. Then you can have them purchase their choices in the form you prefer (buckets, baggies, whatever).

IME horses are often needing supplementation* of Cu/Zn, E (on top of the minimum IME), Mg, maybe Se. Protein depends on your hay and what grain you feed. The rest - speaking generally - is to address a suspected issue vs just balancing the diet.

*assuming they are eating appropriate amounts of forage as well as a complete serving of a good fortified feed/ration balancer