I see a difference. I believe you said, “words don’t cause suicide”. I say, in the right circumstances, they do.
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Agreed. The onus is not on every one else in that person’s life to spend the rest of their days wondering if they should have been kinder, or not said [insert not fluffy-nice thing here] to the person.
They, alone, are responsible for the act, and it’s caused by mental illness.
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This. Over and over and over.
ETA for clarity: this isn’t a free pass to be a d*ck. Obviously. But you cannot be responsible for anyone but yourself, at the end of the day.
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So do you believe that clients questioning billing or program methods is bullying? And that no one should do that because you never know what is going on in the pro’s life?
Do you feel that any constructive criticism at all should be withheld because it could send someone into a downward spiral?
How do you feel when your kindness is interpreted by someone as affirmation that they are a burden to those around them? That they feel there is no way for them to overcome their obstacles and they will be a burden forever? That everyone would be better off without them…
We can’t control what is going on in someone’s life or mind. We can only be kind. But we should not sacrifice our own wellbeing and avoid appropriate conversations that directly relate to either ourselves or our animals because someone might be in a bad place.
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I am friends with a mother who lost her adult son to suicide a few years ago. He was a combat veteran, who profoundly struggled with his experiences.
Was my friend a perfect mother? Of course not. No one is.
I have watched her torture herself emotionally over the last few years as she tries to process the loss of her son. The would have, could have, should haves that I know for a fact go through her head on a daily basis because she has spoken with me about it at times… it’s one of the most viscerally painful things I have ever witnessed another human being experience.
Subscribing to the logic that words can sometimes cause another person to take their own life? It’s an incredibly perilous and slippery slope. Loved ones in the immediate circle surrounding the person who took their own life are in so much pain, and impacted so intensely by this tragedy. It’s important to try and be mindful of this.
Be kind.
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If someone is mentally ill to the point that suicide looks to them to be a solid solution, anything can be “fuel to the fire”.
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Thank you for that thoughtful and insightful post, @Turtle_Creek_Equestrian.
I am sorry for your loss as well.
Take care of yourself.
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Thank you so very much. My heart is so broken and I feel numb.
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I am sorry to hear about Brandon. I met him many years ago when I was involved with sport horse breeding, registry inspections, DSHB shows, etc. He struck me as a likable and competent young man who was just trying to make a go of it in a hard business (horses).
On the topic of whether suicide is always the result of extreme mental illness - I will offer this. I lost a cousin to suicide about 14 years ago. Although he had been experiencing some extreme life stressors beforehand, he had never exhibited any signs of “mental illness” up until those last few months. He was well adjusted and well liked in the community, was married with an 8 year old daughter and 13 year old adopted daughter (and he doted on both daughters), he was heavily involved with his daughters in 4H, and he ran a business that had been very successful up until that year.
Then the economy tanked and his business tanked with it and he had to lay off all his employees, some of which were second and third generation with the company (the business had been established by our grandfather in the early 1950’s). Then his wife left him and took their daughters, the wife moved in with another man who was not a good role model for young girls (had a criminal record for drugs and violence). Plus my cousin had taken out a $350,000 second mortgage on his farm about six months earlier to help keep his business and farm afloat during the economic downturn.
But all came crashing down upon him - he lost his business, his marriage fell apart and his wife got custody of the girls (he was only allowed to see them every other weekend), and his farm and home got foreclosed on. He fell into a deep depression and although his mother and sister and several good friends (who included a captain on the local police force) were concerned about him and tried to help him, he refused all suggestions, would not seek counseling, etc. And his depression became a despondency that led him in only one direction (as he saw it).
So a long story to say that suicide victims are not necessarily mentally ill - until they are driven to such a deep, dark place of depression and despair that they believe the only way to find peace is to end their life. My heart goes out to all who have reached such a bleak point in their lives. I have been in a deep, dark place a few times, too, yet I cannot imagine the sense of utter hopelessness those poor people feel.
God rest their souls.
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@endlessclimb @Bogey2 @Jackjoe1 - BN didn’t apologize, the poster you’re replying to wasn’t talking about BN.
@cph1957 was saying another poster who had accidentally posted an AI generated obituary with false information had apologized and removed the post. Post 68 was replying to post 6 - before BN was part of the conversation. I wanted to clarify because I don’t want anyone giving BN credit for an apology that did not happen.
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I am sorry to hear about your cousin. My perspective I have tried to share, and what I believe some other posters are saying, is not that life stressors or bullying or anything similar is OK or not a factor in mental health. If we were to compare to a physical illness, for example: My cousin was never a diabetic his whole life until one year he gained a significant amount of weight due to life stresses and developed type 2 diabetes. We begged him to see a doctor, take medication, and talk to a dietician to manage his disease, but he refused and died from diabetic ketoacidosis.
When compared to a physical illness, it would clearly be that he died of untreated diabetes, not from stress. People all have various inherent risk factors that they carry with them and it may take more or less input from external sources to cause a disease, but only in the case of mental illness do we tend to struggle with treating it like a disease which is a longer conversation than I have here.
Obviously we should all be kind and I do believe Brandon was bullied by internet mean people many years back. I am certain that didn’t make his life better. I am more certain that if we are going to blame anything for the loss of his life and that of anyone who commits suicide, it is a lack of access to effective mental health treatment, whether that was from circumstances that are common to the industry or the simple fact that many of the treatments we have for depression are just not very effective.
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I think a useful reframing would be to focus on what we can do to help, rather than litigate what “causes” suicidal ideation.
Suicide is, amongst other things, an illness of temporal perception. Suicidal individuals feel trapped in a spiral of thoughts and can not perceive the possibility of feeling or thinking better, or even differently. This period can last minutes, or months.
It is important to break this cycle of thinking. If it’s someone you know and love, then obviously you would try to get that person into intensive therapy. Or if they are resistant, you spend time with them, talk to them, make fun plans. Even if it’s just you seemingly talking to an empty room, some part of your voice will get through.
And suicidal people walk amongst us every day. You’ll never know if your comment is the one that really resonates and makes them think, hey I can get through today. Maybe I don’t feel so alienated.
We can remember that our words, even online, are directed towards real people and we can maybe try to give someone the benefit of the doubt, or at the very least, just not engage if it’s heading somewhere ugly.
I write this as someone who is not perfect and can do better.
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No kidding.
you are taking this well beyond the extreme. if you are openly bullying a person then I fault you for any harm you may cause to a person. I am not saying you have to tip-toe around a person who is struggling but if you are openly hiding behind a keyboard to degrade another individual, which has happened frequently on this very forum and in social media; then I place some of the blame on those who drove a person to their wits end if that be the result. I think those who find my thoughts like a personal attack maybe need to find some soul searching in how they’ve perhaps treated others on forms of social media and this forum.
That is my point and I am sticking with it.
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As for some of the suicides in the veterinary community, in some instances the online bullying escalated to the inability to keep their clinics open. And veterinarians losing their livelihoods.
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I am saying that if you are openly bullying someone while hiding behind a keyboard or face to face then I do place blame on the victims mental state to those doing such actions. None of your “examples” are anything I am referring to.
If you are questioning a billing / program or constructive criticism of you trainer or barn manager then no, I don’t constitute that as bullying. I think the line is drawn based on how it was delivered. Is the person approaching the business owner with a tight attitude and “karen” mentality or is it the conversation being started with professionalism and respect and handled that way entirely?
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I find it amusing that some who have bullied others without mercy on this BB are confident that words don’t contribute to suicide. Perhaps it is a reflection on themselves and making themselves feel better for their cruel words to some? We know for a fact that bullying contributes to suicide. When someone has mental health issues bullying doesn’t exactly help. I’m not saying that we need to tiptoe around people, but we can maybe not be jerks?
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This. The world would be a much better place if everyone could just do this.
I love COTH (obviously, or I wouldn’t have stuck around here for nearly 25 years now!), but posters here can absolutely be cruel bullies at times. I have a good friend who once - back in the days of answering machines - received multiple DEATH THREATS from posters here because of an entirely false narrative posted by a young woman looking to make herself famous.
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And suicides in the queer community that likely would not have happened had the person been accepted, not bullied. I don’t think you can just wipe your hands and say “chemical imbalance!” when it comes to suicide.
Social media has a way of getting into your head that day-to-day interactions do not. They needle, they keep coming, they’re untraceable and often exponential. They do not drift away as the day goes on, but remain ready and available for review… again and again and again.
That’s not to say that any one comment or commenter on social media is to “blame”, but I’m not ready to let the entirety of social media off the hook in a growing mental health crisis. But I also think lack of housing, food, and financial stability can make or break one’s willingness to “go on”.
The client call-outs were weird, but there’s an obvious difference in customer service woes and terrorizing someone online. I think you all know that too, and are being a bit harsh in some of your responses, which seems a bit untoward in this particular thread.
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I find it amusing that we have threads, tens of thousands of posts long, aimed at people with clear mental health issues that we’re not going to label as bullying because it was widely accepted. Kanarek, Shearer, Peronace?
Nah, not bullying…
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