Reading what the general population posts on these types of issues shows how we are in the throws of birth on actually dealing with and ultimately preventing (hopefully) this type of behavior. I believe it will take years until the process unfolds into a solid working program. It will also take years and a lot of very hard work (and sacrifice for some) until the general populations’ core views and beliefs on these matters make the changes needed. Since this is not a mainstream sport with a lot more publicity it will be harder to make the change. Also, as riding goes back literally thousands of years, we are what I kind of term an ‘old’ sport. This also makes it harder to change. I feel we can and will get there, but it will take a long time. Thanks in advance to everyone who comes forward, those who open their minds to possibilities and most importantly those who continue to seek and want the truth.
This whole angle… “Oooh! You got your daughter an apartment as a teen so she could be closer to a top tier training program, and meet her competitive goals, and THAT is why she was targeted for abuse! Tsk tsk.” - it’s ironic.
I’m closer to eventing than hunters or jumpers. But the eventing world is heavy on working students. Lots of vulnerable young people living on property in accommodations supplied by the professional program for which they are working. If a pro was inclined to prey upon a working student… it would be a heck of a lot easier when housing is actually controlled by the pro. 
So these parents had a talented daughter with big goals, and funded an apartment for her so she was closer to the program, and could pursue intense training and these goals. And somehow THAT made her more vulnerable to abuse? I mean… I get it, in that she was still a minor - there is risk. But still… they were trying to support their daughter’s dreams in what is frankly a lower risk manner than many of the working student situations I know of.
At some point, people need to refocus and accept that predators are going to prey. They are going to prey on working students. They are going to prey on younger ‘barn rats’ - just hanging around trying to get a chance to ride some. They are going to prey on hired help if they see an angle that makes it easy to do so. And they apparently will prey on younger students, from backgrounds with some means, again, if they can see an angle, and manipulate, and find a way to.
Predators prey on others. Full stop. That’s why we should all want them GONE from sport. We shouldn’t sit around parsing details, and trying to decide if this is more, or less likely to happen to a working student living on property, or a vulnerable young person living in an apartment funded by her parents. It’s irrelevant. It is likely to happen again and again as long as there are still known predators who are part of the sport, who have been engaging in this behavior for decades, and getting away with it.
I don’t think things will change much after this gets settled in the courts, but there is definitely a need to address the issue of underage girls going off to stay elsewhere, for the purpose of riding, without parental oversight. The case of Doug Masters, a mid-level trainer/jumper from KY, involves a young girl who was given free reign (no pun intended) by her parents to do as she pleased and came and went from his barn and with him to various places that include FL. She entered into a romantic relationship with him at some point, as there were posts referencing it and complementing the attractiveness of his girlfriend. I don’t know if her parents knew about it, but it was certainly no secret in the social circles of the sport, where he openly received acknowledgement and complements for having her as a girlfriend. He was in his late 20’s and she was apparently barely old enough to drive, when the Safesport hammer fell on him in 2020.
Interesting. I saw Doug Masters’ name go on the list, but only heard vague things about the specifics of his case.
I think this is a good time at which to make a point about the manipulation games going on in so many of these known situations… and to point out the realities. And it’s not a pretty point to make… but someone needs to just say it. Spell it all out.
The predatory men involved in these situations for the last several decades in this sport get older and older, but the girls (and in a particular notorious case, boys) remain the same general age. The guy who was 30 in the 1970’s and trying to manipulate his way into secretive, sexual relationships with underage, teenaged students? Well… he continued to do that in his 40’s, 50’s and apparently 60’s in some cases.
The sport has a considerable number of adult women who participate now, who sadly believed that certain big name pros in the jumper world (and eventing too, actually) thought they were ‘special’ when they were still underaged teens, or barely legal adult females… but regular students, working students, or general barn employees. Many a promise and plan was whispered about to eventually go public with these ‘relationships,’ and run an amazing horse business together, and in some cases, to leave a wife in order to do so, etc etc.
But over and over again, the young females involved in these situations were casually discarded when they got too demanding, or too old, and exchanged for naive, compliant, slightly younger females.
Violating laws is hard to prove in many cases, and predators are CLEVER. They might begin grooming when a girl is 13-16, but wait to consummate things until she’s 18. They might be grooming one girl, in secret, while sleeping with one or two others, in secret. SafeSport is incredibly important because it actually addresses the power differential component in these situations. Coaches shouldn’t be having sex with students - even those of legal age. Period. Same goes with their working students. Same goes for ‘professionals’ who own a program and thriving facility and employee typically lower paid barn staff. Who are often young. They shouldn’t be sleeping with them. Regardless of age. PERIOD.
It will mean a culture change in the sport to change this dynamic. However, it’s certainly time. There definitely are well known ‘power couples’ at the top of sport who run thriving businesses together. Some probably have great relationships…that are real and healthy… regardless of how they first met. I do not mean to throw shade at those people. But there are several others out there who have/had DEEPLY dysfunctional relationships… relationships that may have started when there was a power imbalance, or one side happened to be much younger if not underage. And though promises were made, and sometimes people got married, the predator continued to prey upon other young females in the sport. Often students. While engaged in the public long term relationship with the wife/girlfriend. The age of the prey remained the same, even as the predator aged. The wife/girlfriend in many cases WAS aware. And she looked the other way.
We should be a little more open and public in terms of commenting about just how ugly and tragic life is, in the long run, for some of these wives and girlfriends. Seriously. We should encourage young females in the sport NOT to fantasize about ‘partnering’ with some established horse pro hero (
) in order to build a thriving business. Nope. Too often that fantasy has actually been a barely concealed nightmare, when it played out in real life. Elevate the stories of women who did it on their own. And be honest about the stories of the women who clearly looked the other way, or engaged in denial, or straight up went on offense against victims, just to preserve their shaky little ‘horse business partnership’ that they built with a total scumbag sexual predator.
Let’s all be a little more honest about how sad and UGLY that whole dynamic, in many of these situations, really is. Let’s make sure that the next time a known predator who is still out there tries to sell a 14-20 something year old student, or employee, who is also 20, 30, or 40 years younger, on the whole notion that she is ‘special’, and he’s going to leave his wife/girlfriend and build an amazing horse business with her… that she just looks at him, sees him for the creep he is, and informs him that young girls and women in our sport no longer fall for that crap, and if he tries it again, he will be reported to SafeSport and lose EVERYTHING.
Just my two cents. This may or may not have really been the underlying dynamic in the Rich Fellers case… but it certainly has been the dynamic in many many many others. It’s really sad. There are many adult women in our sport, standing by silently now about their own experiences, because they feel foolish and ashamed, and are worried if they speak up honestly to SafeSport, and others in the sport find out about it, they will be labeled something awful. That is a big part of the underlying culture that needs to change in this sport.
Others are free to disagree… but I think it’s about time that someone spells some of this out in black and white terms.
Safesport will often wait for the outcome of the criminal trial when those proceedings are in place. They issue the temp suspension, and will hold off on final decision until the criminal case is completed.
If for some reason the criminal case is dismissed or the perpetrator is found not guilty, permanent sanctions can still be placed as the law is different between criminal and civil allegations.
DM’s case has been on the down-low, because he’s not high-profile and the direct evidence was all on his social media accounts, which he razed after the Safesport ban. I only knew what was going on there because I looked into it before he did it, though I didn’t look at it too closely, cause I was focused elsewhere and only got the basics. There’s only a small chunk of his Instagram account left and most of the posts there were removed from public view, but Facebook privately saves everything on both it and Instagram, so the evidence is there, if a warrant is produced. I don’t think they’ll give it to Safesport, so they have to wait until LE decides they want to be involved. He’s been on Temp Suspension for over a year, which is a sign that there’s no movement from Safesport on the matter, because they are waiting for LE to get involved or more evidence to pop up. They can keep him there indefinitely, per the code, though I suspect they would rather like to rule one way or another, before the suspension turns into a legal matter for the courts to decide.
It’s always easier for an administrative body to wait until there’s been a criminal conviction, where that’s likely. For one, it’s free to the admin body. Costs them nothing to wait and let another entity investigate. For another, it quashes all the “due process” complaints because the full compliment of due process occurred prior to conviction. It also shuts up the naysayers a bit because there are facts of public record in the criminal case showing the defendant’s guilt. It’s easier and probably better to keep a member on temporary suspension while criminal proceedings are ongoing.
Exactly. People who have not been through something like this seem to not understand what a survivor goes through. Evidence is usually a huge issue as well. These predators know how to keep a young person quiet. They don’t abuse in front of cameras or witnesses, and they rarely leave physical evidence behind. So yes, it’s very very hard to come forward. Then when dealing with a public figure, when they do come out, there’s the deniers to deal with. I don’t know what would convince some people. Do they really think a predator that’s been abusing for decades is going to leave a bunch of evidence behind?
You and Maggie keep your heads up. Hopefully he gets what he deserves… but… even if he doesn’t, even if he gets off completely on this, you’re doing the right thing. At the very least, this waste of breath is now on the radar for what he did and will be more likely to suffer consequences down the line. The more survivors come forward and the more on alert everyone is around these guys, the less vulnerable potential victims are. That’s important.
Well, things are definitely not going to change if people keep using the language of your post.
It puts, once again, the onus of responsibility on parties that did not commit any crime.
And then there’s the “romantic relationship” part. Please replace with “statutory rape” and you’ll have gone a long way to trying to improve things rather than degrade any steps forward we as a society have made.
One of the newspapers posted an article about statutory rape that included the phrase, “had sex with.” I and a few others jumped all over that editor and it changed. If a newspaper can learn and change so can we.
I hope Carrie will alert the authorities to this thread to allow them to investigate whether or not a couple of new members who posted sketchy posts (now deleted) may be directly involved in this case.
I’m not techie but I believe COTH might allow law enforcement to determine where certain ISP addresses emanate from?
Maggie and Carrie stay strong and stay the course. I was a ‘victim’ too as a child many years ago and this molestation of youth, needs to be stopped.
*Even if Safe Sport was in existence back then, what happened to me and some other girls, was horse related but happened outside the umbrella of any type of national equestrian governing body.
You know, it’s not at all unreasonable for parents to believe they can trust a relative or a longtime trusted friend with the extended safety of their child. Indeed, children of that age are sent to boarding schools, or college, or summer camps, for many months at a time, all the time.
In Japan, it’s not uncommon for high school students to get an apartment of their own, because their high school is some distance from home. In America, it’s not that unusual for 16 year olds to go away to college on their own.
It’s not the fault of the parents and it’s not the fault of the kids. It’s the fault of the predators.
It’s our job to look out for these power imbalances, to make it clear to EVERYONE what is not okay in those relationships, to educate adults in our sport that no it’s actually not adorable that crusty old trainer is “dating” his working students, employees, or clients in any way regardless of the ages.
Perhaps his parents shouldn’t have sent him out into the world until he learned that adult men shouldn’t be having sex with underage girls. Or, here’s a thought, maybe he should be accountable for his actions, instead of trying to shift the blame to the child and her parents.
Thank you. Exactly.
A pretty good parallel situation that my husband and I have discussed before actually comes from the world of youth hockey, several years ago. Talented young kids who got their start playing pond hockey in remote rural areas of Canada used to regularly go stay with families and trusted coaches as teens, that were closer to training and competition centers. There was a SIGNIFICANT issue with a culture of sexual abuse that developed. It’s really sad.
But guess what? That isn’t the fault of the young teenaged boys and their parents who were naive, but talented and motivated, and had dreams about making it to the pro level in their chosen sport. Nope. It was the fault of the predators, and the people who enabled the predators. PERIOD.
I loathe those that try to argue consent of a minor, for instance Duncan McIntosh. It doesn’t matter how mature that teen might seem. If they profess their love, strip down naked, sit on an adult’s lap and beg for sex, the answer is “HELL NO” because they’re not ABLE to consent. Full stop. Why is this hard for some men to understand?
And honestly I know more than one person an older adult woman who seemingly refuses to acknowledge that their idol is is freaking predator. They blame the victim. They place blame on a freaking child over a calculating grown man and it’s GROSS.
And with that I am out ! As a survivor of this I am triggered. I am sad. It’s all so freaking depressing that people cast aspersions on literal children and the people who only wanted the best for them and somehow protect the calculating monsters
Every decent person, male or female, knows that underage children are off limits. And I guess some not so decent are slowly figuring this out. I don’t care how physically mature the victim is, how seductive, if they are offered up on a silver platter, easily accessible, etc - it makes no difference. Minors cannot give consent because they are children. This is the law. Why some people feel this doesn’t apply to them blows my mind. This is not about the victim - it is about people that think somehow they are above this reality. This whole mindset needs to change and I hope people can learn that this behavior is not acceptable. All these cases should give them a wake-up call.
I’m triggered as well. I stay and speak up about these things because I didn’t have the strength decades ago, and I know there are others that can’t yet. Every time someone wants to imply that the child is somehow at fault, or someone coming forward years later isn’t to be believed because it took some time to find their voice. I’ll be here to tell them that they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. If enough survivors are willing to speak, then they’ll never drown out or voices or escape from the reality of what we’ve gone through, and what those that are still being abused are going through.
I wish you all wouldn’t quote the poison that oreo writes. It just gives him/her a platform. It’s apparently been flagged, so may disappear. Would you edit it out of your posts?
