Yes. There are pros and cons. I believe when this was previously discussed on this forum, several people balked at the idea of a victim (or even a witness)–who may have already suffered a grievous violation of his or her autonomy at the hands of the perpetrator-- now being compelled to cooperate by SafeSport.
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I can understand that aspect of it as well. According to the interview that Scott Reid of the OC Register did with the victim in the Bob McDonald case, the SafeSport investigator in that matter handled the case in a suboptimal fashion, and it really stressed the victim once they were approaching the arbitration process, and she backed out at that point. It’s unfortunate.
I suspect that a club level disciplinary body like SS might not have the legal authority to subpoena?
However, reading through this thread it sounds like SS needs to report criminal behavior to the police. So perhaps this might work:
Third party reports assault of child plus hush money paid to SS. Then SS reports to police. Then police or courts can subpoena the witnesses and start legal proceedings.
The article about Salinger was excellent. It shows how vulnerable some teens and even very young adults can be to adults who know exactly the blend of romanticism and hero worship that can motivate some young people in that age group to make unfortunate choices.
Also the shame that follows realizing you have been duped. The author of that article lost a huge amount of tangible benefits in life because of Salinger. And of course she was vulnerable to him because of hero worship and his absurd over promises. They fit a particular “swept away by the prince” motif in our culture that remains pervasive. Of course men doing this use their celebrity status and authority as bait to make the girl feel special.
Of course that leads to accusations afterwards that the girl was attracted to his celebrity. Of course she was. He was using it deliberately to groom and trap her, manipulate her. It’s all he has going for him. Of course he’s going to target ambitious girls who are a bit more naieve than they realize. Those are the vulnerable ones.
And so that’s why we have laws. Because teens and young adults can be vulnerable to manipulation and can make very bad choices, like throwing away a scholarship, for a predator that holds out the right bait.
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Good point about NDA’s signed by the parent or guardian of a minor. I’ve read that waivers for sports or other reasons signed by a parent or guardian are probably worthless, so maybe the NDA’s in return for a settlement are also non-binding, if the victim wants to come forward. I’m not in favor of any victim being forced to testify though. I’m hoping some of our legal experts might comment on the legality of NDA’s signed by anyone but the victim?
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Exactly!
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This is possible.
It’s going to depend on the state law that applies.
But there are so many things we don’t know…
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Was the NDA signed by the parents on behalf of a minor child or had the child reached the age of majority by the time the NDA was signed and did she therefore sign it herself?
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Was the victim represented by counsel?
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How much disclosure was there to the victim and did she understand the consequences of the signature?
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What sorts of minor tolling statutes does the jurisdiction in question have?
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What does the NDA say?
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Even if the NDA is voideable, does the victim want the consequences of that (such as giving back the money which she may or may not have now)?
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That is true at present. However, I imagine the federal government could, by statute, give SafeSport subpoena power. Then when equestrians agree to be bound by SafeSport procedures, they would be agreeing to submit to any subpoenas issued by SafeSport. The same thing happens with arbitrations conducted at JAMS or AAA – the arbitrator has subpoena power based on the agreement of the parties to submit to arbitration.
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Yes, I agree with all your points.
A minor cannot give consent nor can they execute a legal document. Any NDA signed by a minor is automatically defective and unenforceable.
A NDA may, according to that state, be enforceable if signed by BOTH parents but my hunch is it isn’t in many jurisdictions.
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remember, George Morris is Rich"s BFF. Says so much… Bird of a feather flock together
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This is Carrie Kehring, Maggie’s mom. I would love to take this thread in a more productive direction. First and foremost is there any way we could just be open about who we are? It would cut down tremendously on the hateful, fully non-productive comments. I would also like to take the direction of this thread to give people some understanding and also start driving people in a forward, positive manner to make this a safer, healthier environment for all of the children who grow up in the barn.
Since Maggie has come forward my family has received an avalanche of support and an avalanche of trolling, but worse than the trolling is the straight up apathy most people in this industry have about this subject. They don’t want to believe it is happening and when they are finally able to get their head around it, they don’t understand how it happens. I can tell you this. It is happening and it is NEVER the minor’s or child being coached “fault”. Putting aside the minor’s age (which is black and white but somehow isn’t in people’s minds), there is a huge imbalance of power in any adult/child coaching relationship. PERIOD.
The sheer number of women (of all ages in this industry) who have reached out to my family to share their stories that are similar to Maggie’s story, it is absolutely STAGGERING. What is absolutely insane is that what happened to Maggie is not uncommon at all. People don’t understand grooming and they don’t understand the outsized relationship children and young adults have with their coaches. We are very quick to defend it or ignore it because trainers feel targeted. A healthy, close relationship with a coach is understandable and can be a wonderful thing. My youngest daughter found so much incredible support and just such a solid wall to lean on this past year with her coach(es). Having strong, positive relationships with wonderful coaches are key things for many children growing up in sports. We need to acknowledge and appreciate that, but also acknowledge and understand that there is a huge imbalance of power as well.
A young woman (or young man) coming out of a grooming relationship is fully destroyed. It takes years and years in most cases for the young person to even begin to understand what happened to them. Immediate reporting is just next to impossible because it takes so much for a young person to even begin to stand on stable ground. When there is grooming, it is the coach, the young adult’s greatest influence in their life who has helped form and shape them that they are trying to recover from and understand what happened. For the young person involved it is like losing an arm and a leg, a heart and a soul.
There is so much mis-understanding about Safesport and Law Enforcement. SafeSport is so necessary but terribly underfunded and incredibly misunderstood. Law enforcement is nearly insurmountable. SafeSport is not a witch hunt. Quite honestly they are so understaffed they don’t even begin to have the time or capacity to go on a witch hunt. The evidence required from both of those agencies is next to impossible to produce. I want people to understand the amount of evidence necessary in our case. It is mind boggling. In our situation we did what everyone says to do “If it’s real why don’t they go to SafeSport” “Well if it’s really real why don’t they go to law enforcement”. We were successful with both routes (and again it is a nearly insurmountable amount of evidence that is required), and still many people don’t believe that their hero could be anything other than their hero.
My family is working on ways to get better education out there for everyone in this industry and better awareness of how deeply the problem runs. But it’s tremendously hard to read people’s opinions, when they aren’t educated opinions on how hard it is for a young person to understand what has happened to them and come forward, how underfunded SafeSport is, the level of evidence required and additionally that the law enforcement process is set up at every avenue to shut down the young person coming forward.
We need better support and education of trainers, grooms and parents before we can even begin to understand the complexities of these issues and the horrible complexities of coming forward.
I hope this thread can now move in the right direction of opening those discussions up.
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I know he’s been reported, but no one with knowledge of the conduct will talk. Its very sad
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I know for at least one of the victims, there is no NDA. She spent 10 years in counselling (extreme emotional trauma) and cannot return to where she was by raising up the situation again. It’s very tragic.
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That’s heartbreaking. But I absolutely understand that she needs to do what she needs to do to take care of herself. And I support that.
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I don’t know the answer bc I’m an employment lawyer here, but I think Oregon would take a very hard look at enforcing a NDA that kept a child from reporting sex abuse. My guess is its voidable if not outright void against public policy.
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Thank you again for speaking up here and in real life. How can people help to change the process? How can we get people to actually acknowledge this happens and we need to support those being abused without tearing them to shred? How can we get SS and law enforcement what they need to investigate these cases without destroying lives? Are there steps we can take? Are their legal ways to assist these agencies without interfering with their investigations?
I have been involved in education for 28+ years and worked to get help for students who have struggled with a variety of power imbalance issues, but have never dealt with what your family has gone through. I am in awe of you and your daughter and can only offer my support from afar unless there is a way I can write letters to the powers to be. Just say the word.
I’ve written enough on these forums that most people know who I am if they’ve been around for a while, but so you know, my name is Cricket Stone Morris and I’m in Virginia.
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I cannot thank you enough for offering your perspective and opinion. I think, even for those of us in law and with children, and who have believed Maggie from the beginning, there is no way for us to know how hard it all really is. To know what she felt and what the process was like and to know how grooming works in real time. Hearing from you helps. I simply cannot imagine what she, and your entire family, has gone through and will continue to go through.
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This is a major issue with any/all sexual abuse. It can take a long, long time for victims to fully process their own experience, and come to terms with the physical and emotional violation. Recovery is a long road. It’s very common for people not to come forward until they are well into adulthood, and have recovered their own self esteem to a sufficient extent that they can look back and see how the other party disrespected and violated their trust in an absolute soul crushing manner.
Those of us on these forums who have participated in multiple SafeSport threads have a fair amount of confidence in, and understanding of what you say with respect to there being a significant amount of evidence involved when any of these cases reach a decision involving a penalty like a lifetime ban being handed down. Also, it’s a sad fact of the justice system (and I assume SafeSport as well) that staffing and funding is woefully inadequate. Anyone who doesn’t realize that is simply ignorant of reality.
You bring up an important point about trainers/coaches feeling very defensive with respect to SafeSport. It’s a remarkable thing in equestrian sports… and there doesn’t actually seem to be a similar parallel in other sports when it comes to this widespread belief that SafeSport is some sort of anti coach witch-hunt. Honestly… after watching this dynamic unfold for the better part of 3 years… I am of the opinion that this is a result of a few prominent coaches within the sport raising their voices early on in opposition to a few key news articles, and lifetime ban decisions. And then others supported this outcry… some because they were currying favor with influential people within the sport, and others because they sincerely trusted abd chose to follow the lead of a few influential voices, like Diane Carney, who has been one of the leading opposition voices when it comes to SafeSport. USEF has done a TERRIBLE JOB in response to this. They needed to say more in the wake of the outcry after George Morris was banned, and when this Athletes for Equity group was formed, and their fundraising and public outreach started. Instead, USEF chose to publicly ignore this activity by LICENSED OFFICIALS. That group (AFE) has since refined it’s online image… and is trying to re-brand itself as a SafeSport reform group, and nags launched a website that they call AERC (Athletes Equity Resource Center). They claim they want to ‘educate, support and empower’ people when it comes to SafeSport processes… But that’s BS, and anyone who has followed it from the beginning knows it’s BS. They are very much an anti-SafeSport group, and promote the myth that it is some sort of out of control witch hunt. They have devoted a significant amount of time and the funds they have raised towards lobbying efforts to get the law overturned altogether…
I think it’s problematic that USEF has stood idly by while a prominent licensed official has lead this effort.
I don’t know what the right answers are at this point, except for people to keep on speaking up about these issues. Anonymous handles on the forums are tricky… definitely a double edged sword. But one thing they have allowed is for discussions to unfold on these forums that people hesitate to have in real life. For some, it’s because we are very private in real life about the fact that we are survivors of childhood sexual abuse or sexual assault. That’s personally true for me. For others, they are pretty deeply networked within the industry, don’t wish to speak out openly with opinions concerning a number of these SafeSport cases out of fear of professional repercussions… but do lend their voices to these forum discussions. I think it’s a sad commentary on the lack of effective leadership by the governing body that so many people who are deeply involved in the sport are tentative about speaking up publicly in support of SafeSport or in support of specific bans.
Something needs to change in terms of the culture in the sport. People need to start caring about the future… which involves all these kids on ponies growing up, continuing riding, and deciding to continue spending a lot of time, energy and money on this particular sport. Right now, we have a lot of people focused on the past, protecting certain adults’ reputations (past and present) and a lot of adults being more focused on their own livelihoods, than on the future viability of the sport as a whole. That’s problematic. And speaks to the lack of effective and healthy leadership in the sport at this time, as well as the prevalence of narcissism. One last comment… I think it worth mentioning there is a REMARKABLE correlation between people who can be described as malignant narcissists, and people who engage in sexual predation of one sort, or another.
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This is such an important point. Unless they’ve been through it, people have a hard time understanding the fact that quite often, there is no evidence to be had. These creeps are very, very good at hiding their behavior in plain site and/or making their victims feel like it was their own fault. It takes a lot for a young person to come forward immediately, so even if there is physical evidence left behind, it’s usually long gone at the time of reporting. That can lead to the feeling that the young person is being victimized again by the system which asks what evidence they have.
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I encourage anyone who is having trouble understanding why this doesn’t come to light until much later and what a grooming relationship looks like to watch HBO’s “The Tale.” The equestrianism aspect of it is not really key to the story, what is key is the victim’s total misremembering of what took place and the process she goes through to understand what really happened.
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