Agreed on “The Tale.” I found it really disturbing to watch though.
The candid photos during the final credits of the real life protagonist as a teen rider were heartbreaking
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Thank you, Carrie, for sharing your perspective. It’s painful and scary to tell these personal stories. It makes the rest of us smarter, though, and maybe better at helping to make this whole thing better in our sport. It is time for the horse industry to train its professionals to be, well, professional, and it is long past time for zero tolerance of abuse of children, customers, or horses.
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Just want to say thank you Carrie for advocating for awareness and reforms in this sport. I know that doesn’t take away any of what your daughter has been through, but I hope it brings some peace to your family and real change. You’re brave to come on this forum, we’re glad you are here. Your daughter is so strong and brave too 
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Thank you Carrie. For speaking up. For being willing to work to improve the system.
I am Peggy Kline, an amateur rider who has been involved with horses and showing in Southern California for 60+ years, most of that time at the county or local levels. I do bigger USEF shows as my budget and horse permit. I was quoted in the original Scott Reid OC Register article on John Manning and Steve Milne. I don’t know that I have much to offer besides support.
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Who pays these bills. The horse world needs to get real. 25 bucks to put on a set of wraps. Seriously…why do we have to take these people out to expensive restaurants and pay for them. Why do we have to pay 550 dollars for a stall a week at a horse show. run your own barn, nope it doesn’t cost that. GET REAL PEOPLE… it’s not rocket science. I would love someone to take me out to a nice meal after I did the barn. We pay for hotels, we pay everything. This whole industry needs to be taken down. Hello you charged me 10 shaving bags"to so call start my stall" If you actually put 10 bags in there you would loose your horse… Now you charge split fees… hello i’m charged 40 bags a week and I still can’t find my horse… We aren’t stupid, e accept it and now on top of it you are molesting my child. This absolutely needs to STOP, seriously we nee to look out for eachother AND HAVE THIS STOP… How many of you come home from a horse show and think, money so well spent… we could have bought towels, luxury and a holiday, first class tickets nope we give everything to our children because we got promised the earth. And what ended up happening
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@Spirit1 that is a strange rant to go with this subject.
I agree that we need to decide what we are willing and not willing to pay for stuff, but I find some of your points to be … weird for this topic and to me, not points that make sense.
(Disclaimer, I am a do it yourself because of a very tight budget type, I always wrapped my own.)
I would much rather pay someone $25 to wrap my horse and know it is getting done correctly by someone who is not going to leave my horse worse off than if they were not wrapped. Wrapping correctly is a skill that is worth paying for.
I must have been doing it wrong because though 10 bags of shavings is fluffy in a stall, I would not want to start my horse with any less than say seven bags so I do not see 10 bags as lose the horse worthy.
Clearly this has nothing to do with the very important topic at hand.
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it’s the whole industry that needs too be cleaned up. Maybe you can’t wrap a horse, but we can. I know you feel not subject on hand. We are going down this road. The whole industry needs to be cleaned up. That’s all I’m saying
. Sorry I went on a ramp… It’s just not our kid’s it just everything. The whole industry needs to be completely reworked and I used this forum. I should have started another post, but I’m done so won’t respond
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I was touching on a similar thought to Spirit, albeit in a more oblique fashion.
The sport is shrinking, and on a path to extinction, if there aren’t some key ‘course corrections.” Economics are a primary driver… it’s expensive to own and compete a horse. The expense involved in the facilities required for equestrian activities of all kinds, as well as the liability and insurance policies required to protect facility owners and trainers? That all plays a major part in the price horse owners and riders pay for everything involved in the sport. All costs and prices are going up, and more and more people are simply getting priced out of the sport, on all levels.
The future of the sport depends upon another generation of children coming up through the ranks, developing a love of horses and competition, and making the decision to pursue it as a lifelong passion. Parents typically pay the bills while kids are coming up through the ranks. These days… those parents are mostly upper middle class, or upper class in terms of socioeconomic brackets. Generally pretty educated, and quite capable of reading about current events, and general news involving a sport their child is interested in.
Soooo… when prominent trainers and Olympians like Rich Fellers get arrested for molesting junior athletes, or banned for life from the sport because of these grossly inappropriate ‘relationships’ with staff or young riders… does anyone think that will attract MORE wealthy, educated parents and young riders to the sport?
I don’t. In fact, I think it will lead some parents who are on the fence about supporting their kid’s riding lessons and desire to show to say, “hey honey, I know you like riding and want to go to shows… but how about we try a different sport for a while and see if you like that as well?”
That’s just reality. I have a sister in law who was an OUTSTANDING gymnast growing up. She pulled her elementary aged daughter from a beginning gymnastics program years ago, as the scandals in that sport were ramping up, because she was so disturbed by it, and then redirected her daughter to other athletic activities. That child is graduating high school now, and going off to play college lacrosse. She’s an incredibly athletic young woman. Gymnastics lost out on that one, and likely there are many other young teens and women across the country who quit pursuing gymnastics seriously in the last decade because of the ongoing, horrifying scandals. Caring, attentive parents with financial means pay attention to scandals like these, and actually do make the decision to keep their kids away from situations like that, all the time.
Anyway… back to Rich. I think it’s DEVASTATING for the sport to have another Olympic affiliated pro swept up in a scandal like this. The stories about George Morris and Jimmy Williams made national news. The article about Bob McDonald in the OC Register? Well… it was harrowing to read. Debbie is a prominent Olympic affiliated rider and coach. Anyway, the cumulative key impact of all this isn’t just within the heart of the sport, and the conversations and debates people like those of us who participate on the forums have about it these issues. Nope. One of the key impacts is what is known as “opportunity cost.” That is best defined as the lost participation of potential future athletes, because of all this horrible publicity surrounding sexual abuse in sport… which is an ONGOING issue involving prominent people… well, combine that with the expense of the sport, and it’s more than enough to make many parents steer their kids away from riding lessons, and make the sport shrink even faster than it already is.
I think a functional governing body, be it USEF or USHJA really needs to consider this issue. Where will the sport be ten years from now if 30% fewer kids ever start taking lessons because of these ugly sexual abuse issues? Beyond the ethical and moral issues, there is a practical economic reason people like Rich, and other well known serial sexual predators who sleep with their students (be it minors or young adults) just need to be pushed out of the sport for good… NOW. USEF needs to have a more compelling way of speaking to all pros and coaches about this dynamic, and explaining that their long term economic interests actually do NOT align with that of the small group of people leading the charge to prevent an alleged SafeSport witch hunt. Nope. Actually, these silly pros - some of whom certainly aren’t child molesters themselves but seem to somehow align or equivocate, and still support some of the bad actors - leadership needs to get them to WAKE UP and realize that the sexual abuse problem is actually a long term business risk for them too. Fewer young riders in the sport means fewer clients for EVERYONE. Fewer shows. Etc etc. That’s simple supply and demand.
It’s sad to look at the issue from that angle, but as @Carrie1 said… there does seem to be an appalling level of apathy by many in the industry regarding the sexual abuse issues. Perhaps if they can’t be persuaded to care because of moral or ethical or compassionate arguments… an economic argument concerning how this might impact ongoing snd future business just MIGHT resonate with these people, and get them to stop lining up with some of these perpetrators who talk endlessly about these fictional witch hunts, and how SafeSport is such a threat to their livelihoods.
Anyway… just a thought, and rambling attempt on my part to try and pull some of these tangents in this discussion back together.
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I have a small voice with an equestrian blog that has a reasonable following. I have written about the issues with trainers and sexual abuse in the past and will do so again. Because it’s not going away.
We need to take our sport back and make people accountable. We need to take the power back from the trainers at the top who have convinced so many people (kids and parents alike) that their endorsement carries so much weight that we should overlook criminal activities.
There is a tremendous amount of denial among many participants in sports who don’t want to believe their god-like trainer is a terrible human being. Because that trainer/coach will get their kids into college, or get them the best horses to ride, etc. Many of these predators are extremely good at grooming the parents as well as the children. I’ve seen it in the sports my kids pursued, and looking back, I realize I saw it with some of the trainers at barns where I rode growing up (there were wonderful ones, too). This is not new. SafeSport is a good step forward but it needs our support to do its job.
Liz Goldsmith, EquineInk.com
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My mother did not want me to get into riding horses because of the gossip she heard from some of the ladies that had girls in lessons.
BUT at the same time she was trying to get me into opera.
She even gave me an LP of Maria Callas the great opera soprano, who was in a long term mistress relationship with the guy who Jackie Kennedy ended up marrying, Ari Onassis, all the while preaching to me about the desirability and sanctity of marriage. There were a lot of rumors going around the opera world back then too, but I guess the ART of music blinded her to the fact that I would be in as much or more danger of sexual abuse in the art world too.
I think the difference was my mother loved, loved, loved music and did not like horses much at all (they are so DANGEROUS!!!)
After a long life I can find no activity where it is guaranteed that girls and boys won’t be subject to sexual abuse. Why can’t the darn males keep their pants zipped?
I deeply resent the male equestrians back then who abused their female students, because of them I did not get the lessons I needed before my MS crippled me so decisively, back when I had enough balance to jump the horses.
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I have to agree with you here. When I was a kid in the 1970s, and absolutely head over heels with horses, all I wanted to do was ride, and just be around horses. I had the best of both worlds - lessons at some of the top show barns in the area, and family friends with horses and 90 acres of ridable land who wanted me to ride whenever I could. I also had a mother who had ridden all of her life as well.
Mom and I have been talking over the last couple years about the issues around the trainers sleeping with their minor students, and how many names were familiar. I also had no idea how in tune my mother was at that time. I was oblivious, but she watched out for me like a hawk. We both took lessons on the same days and rode together a couple times a week out at the farm. And me? I was completely unaware of anything. But my Mom wasn’t!
But I now understand why my parents didn’t buy me a show horses when I so desperately wanted to show on the A H/J circuit. They kept telling my we couldn’t afford it, but looking back now, they certainly could have done so. But instead, they provided me with a great riding education, tons of nice horses to ride, and local show opportunities - and kept me away from people we are now learning that preyed so seriously on minors. When I got my first A Circuit horse, I was in my mid 20’s, and much better able to handle whatever came my way.
I also recall that as naïve as I was, there was a part of me that was scared to death to go to the ‘away’ A shows. I knew I’d be in over my head with the other kids my age who rode - they were far more mature than I was, and there were drugs and the like, and I didn’t want to be in that position. Not that I told anybody - My drive to ride and show consumed all. But a part of me was absolutely terrified.
A few years ago, a local contemporary of that time who showed on the national level, mentioned that she knew that at least 2/3 of the male trainers in our area were sleeping with the minor students. Now, I’m not surprised. But I had no clue at that time.
All I can say is thank you to my parents. They kept me safe, and in a sport I love. But they knew how to do it. Mom knew the sport. I can’t imagine parents completely new to the sport in that situation. No wonder we are losing number. I haven’t been a member of the USEF or USHJA for years, and have no intention of rejoining. Not until the sport can clean up it’s act.
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While we’re all here, I would also really like it if we could stop normalizing all the toxic “working student” abusive relationships. I know so many people (myself included) that got totally taken advantage of by being in a totally lopsided “working student” relationship and yet I still would always feel like I should be grateful to be given such an awesome opportunity to work 12 hour days every day in exchange for weekly “lessons.”
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This is on point. Not to go too far on a tangent… but it is part of the general picture to understand the power, influence, and money dynamics in ALL youth sports today, vs youth sports just one generation ago… ESPECIALLY when it comes to youth sports involving kids from upper middle class and upper class families.
I have a child finishing up elementary school, one entering their last year of middle school, and now 5 nieces and nephews who are either graduating high school, or finishing their first or second year of college. I share this, because for the last few years, discussions with my friends and family have been dominated by people saying, “OMG… you have no idea how incredibly competitive it is to get into all colleges these days, and how competitive it is to get scholarship money if you are above a certain income level. And college is sooooo expensive!”
Youth sports across the board have reorganized over the better part of the last 15 years in response to parents feeling this pressure. My kids have also been involved in youth lacrosse (both boys and girls) and youth baseball, as well as riding. I have nieces and nephews involved in those sports as well, and girls basketball. All of these sports now involve what are best described as parallel leagues operating from young ages, on up through high school. There are still community based development leagues, and then school teams once they get into middle and high school. Little League in Baseball is a classic example… as kids age out of local Little League, they shift to playing baseball in middle and high school. But now there are also “travel teams” and showcase leagues for all youth sports that are starting at younger and younger ages. But parents pay a lot more to participate on these teams, and there are tryouts for some teams, and a ton of politics involved, and unfortunately… this often means parents sucking up to coaches who run these programs. It is similar in many respects to the A circuit in terms of showing, and traveling to certain locations in the winter in Florida and California to show. “Showcase” youth tournaments are often organized during summer months though, and as kids reach high school age and start thinking about college, a ton of talk revolves around participation in these showcase tournaments in key locations, if they want to be noticed by college athletic recruiters. The lacrosse world for both boys and girls is insane… and every parent I know with a kid caught up in this talks about how it all might result in their kid having an admissions advantage when it comes to getting into college. It’s definitely a big deal amongst upper middle class and upper class parents who want junior to have a foot in the door with any number of ‘elite’ institutions. I’m a bit dubious about this legendary college admissions advantage… the numbers are actually brutal when it comes to admission at any number of ‘elite’ East Coast private universities these days. But many parents are super anxious, and many push to get their kids onto various sport travel teams, because certain coaches have cultivated a reputation for having “connections” with certain college coaches and athletic directors… and there are “rumors” that they can get kids onto specific rosters, and admitted into certain schools, regardless of the kid’s shortcomings in terms of academic merit…
It probably all sounds kind of nuts and irrelevant to this discussion to people who don’t have kids right now, and aren’t interested or following topics related to college admissions. But trust me… those of us who are parents of kids involved in youth sports in this day and age, know how much this competitive and anxious culture which is fixated on college admissions has come to dominate life. It’s definitely a cultural shift across multiple sports. In lacrosse in particular, I have seen MANY instances where otherwise smart, wealthy, sensible, successful and well educated parents… well… they have thrown common sense out the window, all because they are desperate for their child to continue to have a place with the XYZ club team. Because Coach So and So ‘knows’ people who run the program at John’s Hopkins, UVA and Duke… so the parents turn a blind eye when Coach So and So screams at a sideline full of ten year olds, or when downright nasty, rude or blatantly manipulative communications start flowing pretty regularly from Coach So and So to parents and kids alike involved in a particular club team. It’s a truly bizarre dynamic. Hard to explain. And yes… drugs and partying by high schoolers are a big part of this ‘scene.’ They’re lax bros, after all. It’s expected. Just like drugs and partying are an expected part of the A showing scene.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. In some ways, I think this broader youth sports culture dynamic has affected how some wealthier parents who are new to the sport approach riding with kids these days. They get convinced that this A show barn or that A show barn is where they HAVE to stay if they want their kid or ambitious teen to continue to be competitive, and that their kid really NEEDS to show on this circuit or that circuit (or in recognized vs. schooling shows) if they really want to progress in the sport. Some coaches are very adept at nurturing this sort of culture involving anxious parents… grooming happens on multiple levels with parents and children alike… and sooner or later it results in parents allowing disrespectful and inappropriate comments and conduct to go unconfronted… because we all want to continue to be part of Coach So and So’s oh so important program, because we are so fixated on our kids being ‘successful’ and achieving ‘their’ dreams…
It’s super easy for sexual predators to hide in plain sight, and groom and abuse kids in the midst of this sort of youth sports culture. Those of us who grew up riding know that sexual predators have been a challenge in this sport for multiple generations. But the broader toxic culture around youth sports in today’s day and age? Well… I personally think it allows sexual predators to hide in plain sight in equestrian sports in a new way in some respects… because too many parents are not paying enough attention to the importance of their role in terms of questioning whether or not that coach is an evil asshole at all times, and are instead getting swept up in it all. I don’t say this to blame other parents who’s children have been victims… please don’t misunderstand… it’s always the fault of predators when abuse happens. But I do want to highlight some of the dynamics in play right now, that certain predators seem to be pretty adept at utilizing so that they continue to have a barn full of young riders… despite the fact that they are clearly unprofessional assholes, and also dogged by rumors of sexual improprieties with past students. Grooming is a complex thing, for sure.
@ladyj79 has called pros in our sport “pig ignorant” on these threads before. And she’s on point! But make mistake… they are darn good at playing crappy little manipulative head games with parents and students… and that is all part and parcel of the grooming process. And it’s definitely very much a part of how this particularly awful sexual abuse just goes on and on in our sport.
Back to youth sports in general. My experience in youth lacrosse has been that parents REALLY need to speak to one another, and speak up to one another specifically when stuff happens with coaches that makes you question their professionalism and ethics. Don’t be dramatic or a chronic complainer… but do share with other parents when you notice things that seem a bit off. You might be shocked at what other parents share back in the course of these conversations. We are now done with our brief foray into the youth lax world (thank GOD! It’s the epicenter of some of the worst dynamics in youth sports culture these days… and if I never have to sit on the sidelines of another youth lax game it will not make me sad… not at all), and when my kids were still in it, that sport and those travel leagues didn’t fall under SafeSport… as it’s not part of the Olympic movement… but during our involvement in that sport, my husband and I witnessed coaches swearing at 9 and 10 year olds more than once, calling them “lazy little ffff ers.” That was AWFUL, and involved the coach of an opposing team our kid’s team was playing. We were also aware of a travel club team with coaches with arrest records for drug dealing, who were offering private lax coaching to some middle and high schoolers, with highly educated millionaire parents who all live in one of the most pricey corners of the most pricey counties in the entire US… the parents KNEW about the coach’s records, and knew there was a reputation that the high school kids involved in that team were all partying and doing drugs… but they were still signing their tween sons up for private coaching with the known dealer coaches 
. One teenaged member of that local club teen was involved in a fatal vehicle accident as a 16 year old just a few years ago. Another lax player in the car with him was nearly paralyzed for life. Parents began talking in the wake of it, and it became clear that there was widespread knowledge that the boys on this team had been getting together and partying with drugs since they were 14… and their travel club coaches were well aware. No one cared. Afte we were done for good with all things youth lax, we heard a story about one of the coaches from that same youth club program actually grabbing and violently shaking an 11 year old boy on the sidelines of a game, and forciblyhitting him over the head… after the kid stumbled and lost possession of the ball in a game. Many highly educated parents apparently witnessed this incident, but either justified it as being ok because the 11 year old was wearing a helmet when the coach publicly assaulted him, or hesitated to speak up, because it’s oh so important to them that THEIR son keep on playing with that club, because if he does, he’s a shoo in to get into XYZ college program… etc etc.
Yet… this lax program is growing and thriving in a wealthy corner of NoVa, as we speak. It’s amazing what people will tolerate and support when they fixate on “success” the way the parents I knew who remained loyal to that club team fixated. I just pray their kids make it through high school ok.
Anyways… I thought I’d share to try and educate others following along about the broader toxic culture involved in youth sports these days… and some other stuff that goes on… and how some of it parallels what we are seeing in equestrian sports. The broader toxic culture really does play a part in enabling these suspected/rumored/outright identified predatory coaches in continuing to operate successful little youth sports fiefdoms. Parents (and other caring adults who give a damn about young athletes) really need to talk to one another, come together, and raise our collective voices, and take back the sports that we love from jerks like this. Or walk away from the sports altogether. It’s one of the best ways that we can all work together to effect some change… vote with our feet and our wallets, and really marginalize unethical assholes. SafeSport and the legal system are also key parts of a solution… but a lot of it is cultural, and we all need to be aware of the roles we play in terms of perpetuating the current culture, and try and be more conscious and part of positive change.
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Some general comments.
Horses are different from almost all other sport in that they get virtually no government or institutional funding or oversight and happen entirely in a series of for profit small business situations where the customer shoulders all the expense plus trainers income.
Of course its expensive. So would swimming or hockey or tennis be if you had to use country clubs or build your own.
The small business model also means none of these trainers answer to anyone.
I was a trail riding kid in the 1970s who ducked away from adult contact and found the two men that owned the two local barns both creepy. When I was in my 20s one of them went to prison for a long time for serially abusing teenage girls in his barn. The other one evaporated in a haze of alcohol and his oldest son went to jail for dealing cocaine up at the ski resort.
More than one teacher in my high school was involved with a student. There was a big scandal and criminal case about ten years ago centered on another high school where there had been serial abuse of teen girls in an outdoor program, apparently an open secret in the 1970s. The guy who went to jail was still married to one of his students from back then.
I feel like to a big extent this routine behavior got squelched in the education system during the 1980s. So it’s sad to see that it has continued in horse world, which I think is partly due to horse world being composed of multiple small businesses with no oversight.
But of course it continues as well in sports that are more institutional in nature. The big difference is only horse world is saying that abusing teens is no big deal, and how dare anyone apply the current norms and laws to them.
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I was thinking of this, my own statement more and more these past few months. Do you remember how angry people got when I said this? The serious pushback? But this, the kocher situation, really the day in and day out machinations of our sport make this simple truth resound in my head every day.
These are people who have never ever evolved beyond the ego, and they destroy those around them, people and animals, gleefully and indifferently to gratify and satisfy their own selves.
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True, but there are child labor laws AFAIA. I mean McDonald’s is not allowed to hire a 10 year old have have them work 12 hours a day 7 days a week in the summer but a horse trainer can as long as they just don’t pay them. And yes I know most kids would not sign up for this but for kids that are also suffering from an abusive home life outside of the barn, they’re definitely not going to see an issue.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t have any working student programs I’m just saying it’s way too easy to abuse kids in those programs and it’s too common. I get that horses are expensive and if you don’t have money you’re going to have to work hard if you want to work off lessons or board or whatever but some of these trainers are just such freaking narcissists that they really think their working students should be grateful for the opportunity to work insanely more hours than the cost of the lesson or board is worth.
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. My point was more that we might need to look at riding being subsidized and funded rather than small business if we want it to continue as a sport.
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That’s never going to happen. Nobody’s going to subsidize or fund equestrian sports so middle class families can go horse show when we have families starving and unable to feed their kids. We just need to do something about income inequality in our country if we want this sport to continue.
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Agreed.
It’s not just the minors mucking for a chance to ride though… it’s definitely also a major problem with working student programs, and low level assistant trainer jobs across the industry for people aged 18 into their early twenties… especially when these jobs involve the young person moving to a different part of the country, and living in housing on the farm property.
Some of these situations are fine short term learning opportunities for specific people, and involve a chance to live and bring a horse to a location closer to a major competition area far from home. But… we all know that certain trainers really overdo it in terms of being sociopathic/narcissistic jerks, expecting something very close to slave labor and 12 to 14 hours a day out of young people… and yes… in a few cases… there is still sexual predation going on.
It would be useful/certainly possible for the governing bodies to come up with a standard guidelines that ‘should’ apply to working student positions, that anyone taking on one of these positions could review. Then, when boundaries are pushed, the young person would have at least a basic set of industry wide guidelines to point to, and they could say, “Hey… I’d like my role as a working student to resemble what is described here by USEF.” If the pro in charge manipulates, threatens, etc etc… then at least the young person would have clarity that it’s time to move on.
Just a thought. But the governing body would have to be forward thinking, and care about the future of the sport and cleaning up/providing guidelines for an obvious situation where misconduct seems to proliferate. Unfortunately, many many many pros will also object to a general set of guidelines for working student positions… because… they are entirely focused on their own selfish interests in the here and now… and less focused on the future of the sport.
Just my opinion. I have a good friend, who is a lot younger, who has recently moved on from an entry level assistant position at a big program. She confided in me after she left about a lot of the bullshit she endured while still in the job. No sexual predation issues… but a lot of other stuff that frankly still makes my blood boil on her behalf. She’s a wonderful young person, a hard hard worker, and from a modest economic background… and I think she was pushed way too hard and taken advantage of professionally because of it, and it’s the sort of thing that just upsets me. Fortunately, she’s moved on to a great new job for an ethical, pleasant pro. 
At least in the current tight labor market, people who are known to treat their working students and employees like crap, and overwork, underpay, and bully them… well… those folks are having a hard time with staffing their businesses these days. I have no sympathy. None at all. Pay competitive wages, and treat everyone decently… from top tier clients, down to poor working students. And stop sexually molesting people. Seriously. If you are a‘professional’ who can’t manage to behave like a decent ethical human in the most minimal sense… then I sincerely hope your horse related business fails. There are too many out there who have gotten away with this crap for too long, because so many young horse crazy girls and women put up with it, because we love the animals.
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But not that long ago, tennis and golf were elite sports. You couldn’t swim or skate without joining a very expensive country club in my suburb in the 1960s. Now there are affordable community centers every where.
Horseback riding won’t get subsidized on the current model. But it could be possible to develop other models on a nonprofit or institutional basis. That would do away with the small busi ess model. They have something like that in German riding club lesson centers. And if the Compton Cowboys can do it…
But no the high cost American hunter jumper circuit based on for profit small business is not something thats going to get funded.
More like community programs that could even have their own competition model built in.
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