Rich Fellers

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ladyj79

I was thinking of this, my own statement more and more these past few months. Do you remember how angry people got when I said this? The serious pushback? But this, the kotcher situation, really the day in and day out machinations of our sport make this simple truth resound in my head every day.

These are people who have never ever evolved beyond the ego, and they destroy those around them, people and animals, gleefully and indifferently to gratify and satisfy their own selves.

Ahhh the pushback. Well… they can be expected to squeal in objection, as the truth likely hurts a bit. Oh well

Amen to the second part.

[Equkelly]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It’s not just the minors mucking for a chance to ride though… it’s definitely also a major problem with working student programs, and low level assistant trainer jobs across the industry for people aged 18 into their early twenties… especially when these jobs involve the young person moving to a different part of the country, and living in housing on the farm property.

Oh I agree, it happens to the vulnerable. Kids especially with a difficult home life, the broke 20 year old that needs job experience, or the groom/ farm hand/ barn manager that depends on their job for housing. It happens a lot to those that can’t easily walk away and just find a new opportunity.

[mvp]

All y’all: Did the public ever get to know whether Fellers’ mistreatment was of the sexual abuse variety (in any form) or of the bullying variety?

I ask because a friend of mine (who was a long-time pro in WA state just across the river from OR) said it was bullying, that Fellers is notorious for that and that the reason Shelly Fellers got nailed, too, is because she told the WS to STFU.

Is any of that true? I can’t tell from any of the carefully crafted statements that have come out about what the actual deed was.

And another thing! What needs to happen is all the folks with enough money to actually get close to this kind of relationship with a pro need to hold them accountable to a standard of behavior that wouldn’t get them fired in their well-paying job. You know why? Because behind you and your kid are others with less money that are trying to work their way up in this sport. And, frankly, if you thought you knew what coercion felt like because you wouldn’t be able to ride with the BNT if you didn’t comply, imagine what coercion is like for someone who gets to choose between their abusive trainer and none at all.

I’m just a tad bitter because I hear and read here so much about folks about having been financially exploited, lied to and worse… and bitching about how they can’t do anything about it for some reason that has to do with being able to stay in the barn/on good terms with the pro. Look, the dishonesty (or worse) you are putting up with must not be that bad for you to stay and pay for it. It’s unfortunate, but somehow not important enough to make waves about. Well, how nice for you. But know this: Every time you do that, you make it harder for the person who is even more constrained than you.

And an ETA for you: Before you declare my point of view to be the product of jealousy or sour grapes, ask yourself if you want to be on the side of the argument that says things should stand because po’ folks deserve to be more vulnerable in a rather dirty sport than the better-off.

[Knights_Mom]

Many parents used barns as day care. Back in the day not one parent brought their kid for a lesson, stayed, then took the kid home. Kids would be dropped off and then catch a ride home with someone. In my teens I brought myself to the barn then took myself home after working like slave labor just so I could be with horses.

I knew of over half a dozen molesters in my area. Only one tried with me and it didnt work. Because I was strong as an ox from being a slave laborer. So there’s that.

I was lucky. VERY LUCKY. My lack of assets and who knows what else kept me safe. But I knew of another kid not so lucky. She came from a broken home, got indoctrinated by a married couple, was used as slave labor and at 13 became pregnant with barn owners swimmers. She disappeared. 30 years later I came across her, sitting at a bar high as a kite.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I’m anonymous on these forums, but it’s no secret that I’m a 40 something year old mom with a 10 year old who rides. My daughter is aware that I no longer ride with a coach at the farm my young friend recently left. My kiddo actually asked me about it recently, “Hey mom - you haven’t had a lesson with so and so in a while. Are you going to again anytime soon?”

You know what my answer was? “No kiddo. You remember our young friend who worked there? Well, Coach So and So wasn’t nice to her. And I don’t think either of us should have lessons with coaches who are mean to their own employees. Our young friend is an awesome person, and didn’t deserve that. So we are going to start taking lessons with this other person. I feel pretty good about this, and am excited for the new opportunity for us.”

There you have it. I’m just an adult ammy client, and parent of a young kid just getting started… but this stuff isn’t complicated. I can post on these forums until I’m blue in the face pointing fingers at USEF and a few key influential pros in the sport who I think are regally toxic and advocating for big changes in the culture and leadership from those folks… and Lord Knows… I do indeed post and call it out… but at the end of the day, when I learn about general crappiness that impacted a really wonderful young person, who has big dreams, and is trying to make her way in the sport, but who is also most definitely amongst the broke 20 something year old crowd? Well… I had a choice to make. I could ignore it since it didn’t personally impact me or my kid, and just keep on doing what I was doing and spending money with the pro who I now knew treated staff horribly…

Or…

I could be a part of actually helping to create change in the sport. And that means no longer spending money with that jerk, and instead, deliberately choosing to start spending my money with someone different instead. And also, being honest with my kid that this is what is happening. Because I want my kid to grow up to be a person who makes ethical, deliberate choices when she learns that other people are being treated poorly.

We have no bad blood or drama with the coach we left. We have nothing that we need to talk to others about third hand, etc. But we have voted with our feet. We feel quite good about it. And frankly, we are enjoying working with a new coach TREMENDOUSLY. Because she’s excellent. Really positive. We should have made a switch sooner!

Anyway… I share that because the sport is FULL of clients just like me, who all witness crappy treatment of staff in barns, routinely. Some of us do have decent sized piggybanks. And always pay our bills on time. When we become aware of issues, both major (like sexual abuse), and less major (other forms of mistreatment of staff and students) we all should take a look in the mirror and ask ourselves if we want to be part of positive change, or if we just don’t really care so long as we don’t personally get hurt…

I care. So I voted with my feet. And informed the next generation that it’s actually important to do that, and not just to look out for yourself, and yourself alone. We will have a much nicer sport, much faster, if more people start doing this. And frankly, there are some really talented wonderful young pros trying to get started in a tough business… more folks should consider using situations like these to do some soul searching and to make changes, and support people who are also a potential part of making positive change happen

[Highflyer1]

He was arrested on multiple counts of sexual abuse.

[Highflyer1]

So here’s a thought. Maybe we should “license” or “certify” trainers. Maybe in order to be licensed or certified you join USEF (or another organization if USEF isn’t interested.) Even if you’re joining for free as fan membership, you get a USEF member number and then pay a relatively small fee ($25-50) each year which USEF uses to run an annual criminal background check on you. If you’re clean USEF puts you on their website along with your contact info and a brief description of services you offer as a licensed trainer or licensed facility if the facility owner chooses to join. Being listed comes with certain requirements like complete SafeSport compliance, background checks on any nonmember employee/family member etc. who interacts with juniors, done by the licensee. Any violation can be reported and result in losing your license for the year or longer.

[Knights_Mom]

USEF already runs a background check on any current or potential licensed official.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Scribbler

I feel like to a big extent this routine behavior got squelched in the education system during the 1980s. So it’s sad to see that it has continued in horse world, which I think is partly due to horse world being composed of multiple small businesses with no oversight.

But of course it continues as well in sports that are more institutional in nature. The big difference is only horse world is saying that abusing teens is no big deal, and how dare anyone apply the current norms and laws to them.

Sooo… as a parent I will share that I actually DON’T think this behavior is as squelched in the education system and elsewhere as we might be inclined to assume. Be careful about looking out for sexual abuse situations using past paradigms as a reference guide.

People who groom and then prey upon children, teens and young adults are INCREDIBLY adept at camouflaging and hiding their actions. If you learn about details of present day abuse cases involving students (both in general Ed and athletics), there often is a ton of grooming, manipulation and set up that happens via modern technology… texting and other apps. As schools have cracked down on abuse by enforcing rules limiting teacher & student contact to certain situations… technological avenues have created a whole set of new opportunities for grooming to occur. And it does. Over and over again, when we learn about abuse cases in the present era that actually go all the way through the prosecution process, and this the evidence involved in making the case becomes more public, we learn that the adult older predators are doing a TON of texting and messaging, or social media connecting with the victims. Photos being exchanged. Key mental barriers being pushed away, little by little. It’s striking.

I also have multiple parent friends who have actually talked to me about situations with particular teachers and coaches for their kids that trended towards excessive private communications, via e-mail and messaging apps used in the context of particular school project work, etc. It’s tricky once kids are well into their teens… they often have accounts for all sorts of reasons and parents don’t actually sit around monitoring all incoming and outgoing texts or emails their kids make… it’s impractical and actually inappropriate in the modern world. In one situation, a friend told me about her 16 year old actually bringing it to her moms attention that the teen was uncomfortable with how frequently the teacher was contacting her personally, and trying to engage in conversation above and beyond what was required for the ongoing school project. The parent had the teen start cc’ing both her parents on all emails with that teacher… and the teacher backed WAY off. My friend said it was interesting and alarming, and she believes the origins communication pattern from the teacher was an attempt to start grooming her kid.

A lot of people on these forums objected TREMENDOUSLY to the MAAP guidelines that came out a few years ago recommending coaches not text minor students directly. Again, the red herring of “SafeSport is a witch hunt, and innocent coaches doing nothing wrong will get caught up in investigations because they were trying to text students to coordinate lesson times” … well… that was raised. And debated. And argued about.

How many false SafeSport cases have been brought because of accidental/coincidental/incidental violations of the MAAP guidelines? I don’t know of any. But I am pretty sure that multiple cases which resulted in lifetime bans of a few key coaches now have evidence in files that clearly demonstrates grooming happened via texting, messaging, the exchange of inappropriate photos, etc, in a systematic way.

Ask anyone who actually has kids now who are old enough to have cell phones and take responsibility for coordinating communications around their own schoolwork, sports, and other activities… there aren’t rampant investigations getting launched anywhere, by anyone, because of a few basic logistical texts. Not in sports, not in education, not in other adult child interaction situations. But you know what is becoming clear, over and over and over? Predators use texting and messaging as an open door to begin the grooming process. And yes… teachers do it. So do coaches. I actually have a friend who had the parent of one of their child’s friends start engaging in text with their child via their child’s cell phone. It was chilling to hear about… and again… really appeared like the beginning of grooming.

So sadly… though we might have squashed the old ways some of this sexual abuse activity happened between teachers and students, the modern era has created new opportunities and it’s still very much an issue.

[Peggy]

@Scribbler

I feel like to a big extent this routine behavior got squelched in the education system during the 1980s. So it’s sad to see that it has continued in horse world, which I think is partly due to horse world being composed of multiple small businesses with no oversight.

Still a problem in education. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-06-22/thacher-school-sex-misconduct-report-stirs-rage-ojai

If paywalled try googling Thacher School sex misconduct or something similar. The LA Times should give you a few free articles.

[Bogie]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

But many parents are super anxious, and many push to get their kids onto various sport travel teams, because certain coaches have cultivated a reputation for having “connections” with certain college coaches and athletic directors… and there are “rumors” that they can get kids onto specific rosters, and admitted into certain schools, regardless of the kid’s shortcomings in terms of academic merit…

My kids both rowed in high school. In contrast to the college recruiting scandal where some of the kids masqueraded as rowers, mine rowed 6 days/week almost year-round. It was a brutal schedule. They rowed on elite club teams which were expensive and hard to get into. The coaches had the ear of all the top college coaches so you wanted your kid in one of those programs. Mine were decent rowers, but also smart. The combination got them into top colleges, early admission. One rowed D-1, the other D-3. They did not get scholarships. For them, it was a way to make them more attractive to the schools they wanted to attend. Could they have gotten in anyway? Hard to know as college admissions is mostly a numbers game if you don’t use athletics or something similar. College coaches have a lot of discretion when it comes to recruiting athletes.

But you had to watch those coaches carefully. I’ve written before that one of the top coaches was discovered to be in a romantic relationship with one of the rowers which started when she was underage. Several of the others made inappropriate comments to the girls (my son was never hassled).

I chaperoned the trips, drove my kids to the regattas, watched the kids and listened to how the talked about the coaches. I heard about the ones who were commenting on their Facebook pics, or Instagram, or sending text messages, or staying behind for 1:1 “training.” It was eye opening and upsetting, especially since all the clubs had rules about rowers not being allowed to be alone with the coaches.

[poltroon]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

I have a child finishing up elementary school, one entering their last year of middle school, and now 5 nieces and nephews who are either graduating high school, or finishing their first or second year of college. I share this, because for the last few years, discussions with my friends and family have been dominated by people saying, “OMG… you have no idea how incredibly competitive it is to get into all colleges these days, and how competitive it is to get scholarship money if you are above a certain income level. And college is sooooo expensive!”

People need to get over this idea in a big way.

1. NCAA is not that great a deal for the kids (athough the latest supreme court decision may make it a bit better). The odds that you get this scholarship are small. The value of this scholarship - versus what you can get as need-based aid - is less than you might expect. The restrictions that come with it - the obligation to play, the inability to work another job, the total lack of guarantee if the student athlete is injured - are significant.

2. There are plenty of great schools out there. Although the elite schools are great for making a network, for kids with parents who are already networked, that’s maybe not so important. If your kid can do the work, there is a quality college that will admit them and likely be affordable too, especially if you live in a state with a good system.

Getting opportunities for your kid in a sport they love because they love it and because of the direct benefits of playing is wonderful. But paying tens of thousands a year to train your kid for a sport in hopes of a small chance of getting a scholarship worth $10k isn’t financially smart. And I’ve seen a lot of ugly parent behavior around the latter.

[Ghazzu]

it appears to be paywalled

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Interesting Bogie. My kids are in public schools in Virginia now, so rowing isn’t offered via their high schools, but was a part of my high school sports offering in a different state - I went to a private school. Furthermore, one of my older brothers went to a private boarding school in high school, rowed there some, then later attended Princeton and rowed for them - no scholarship was offered though, and it wasn’t an admissions hook for him… he attended in the late 80’s in a different era. It was an incredibly intense experience to be part of their rowing program though. My father in law also rowed for years as an adult with a Schuykill club specifically for veterans, mainly for exercise and camaraderie. He loves the sport.

Rowing is intense, and it’s own subculture. For sure.

Sadly… it does indeed have its own abuse issues with coaches as well. The word that I have heard from reliable sources is that the abusive coach ‘Bill Allens’ in the HBO movie, The Tale, was based on a real life rowing coach… not running coach. This coach was indeed an Olympian in the 60’s, but he later moved to coaching an incredibly prestigious college program, and settled in the greater Philadelphia area in the late 60’s, and interacted with many of the school’s prominent alumni who lived in the area. That is how he met the riding coach from the movie… who’s character was named ‘Mrs. G.’ The college’s alumni network. But here character was based on a real life riding coach from that area.

There is indeed a prominent part of the athletic department at that college named after the real life Bill… and rumors of multiple other teenage girls as victims. But… I’ve seen no news about him being reported to SafeSport ever. Or a news report outing him. I think he’s still alive, but in his 90’s now. Still a revered name in the rowing community. If he’s ever publicly named and linked to the story in ‘the Tale’ … it will be huge news. As big as the Jimmy Williams article in the NYT.

Really sad. Sexual abuse of young athletes by Olympic heroes (both former medalists and Olympic coaches) is most definitely a bizarre and sad dynamic that has played out in multiple sports… rowing included. It’s truly stunning some of the names involved.

[mvp]

@Highflyer1

He was arrested on multiple counts of sexual abuse.

Thanks for clearing that up. I’m not sure my pro friend who had been in the PNW had known he was arrested when I asked her.

[Bogie]

My kids went to public school, but Boston is a big rowing center so there are club teams. The funny thing is neither of them was interested in conventional sports – no soccer or tennis – but they both loved to row.

My son rowed for Penn, so spent many hours on the Schuykill. The rowing community is indeed intense; very similar to equestrians and rowers form lifelong friendships.

I haven’t seen The Tale, but there was a very famous rowing coach at Harvard (think George Morris famous) who fits the bill and another coach in the Philadephia area. It’s pretty scary how many of these men got away with such horrific behavior with basically no consequences.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I agree 1000 % with everything you stated.

I’m a stats person, and have a background in macroeconomics. The culture in certain sports of parents fixating on chasing athletics scholarships and side door admissions opportunities for their kids is COMPLETELY detached from straight statistics about the probability of success, likely $$$ amounts awarded, etc. Yet, many otherwise intelligent parents persist down this road.

There are a few sports where the value of participation is still possibly a useful hook, depending on where your kid wants to go to school. Fencing. Seriously. And… from an article I read a few years back, based on pure stats… college equestrian programs. Granted, the lists of schools which offer these sports is NOT extensive. And in the wake of the Varsity Blues scandal and the last years economic shock from Covid… it will be interesting to see if some of these college programs in smaller sports (meaning not football, basketball or baseball) just disappear. The recent Supreme Court decision is against the NCAA is also going to be interesting as it plays out…

Nevertheless, I guarantee you some parents will still be shelling out THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS for their 8 year old to play in private club lacrosse and get private coaching. Seriously. And in that sport, my experience was that the scholarship and college admissions delusions were particularly prevalent.

For my own kids, sports are all about having fun, being active, and making friends. Scholarship talk is not allowed. I watched a niece and a nephew chase playing in college recently while going through the admissions process… both kids are incredible athletes and decent students, and both got a ton of rejections, and were pretty crushed by it all. My niece is going to play at one D3 lax school though that’s pretty good academically, and it might have been a bit of a side door for her admissions wise, but there was no scholarship. Tuition is going to be over $200,000 for 4 years there. The family doesn’t qualify for need based aid, but isn’t really wealthy either.

Since I’m anonymous and on this forum, I’ll just say it… my niece should have gone to state school instead for half the cost and played on an intramural team instead. She’d be so much better off… we are worried she’s going to be graduating with a ton of debt as it is. But… the college athlete dream was a huge goal snd dream for her… so they will now be pursuing this at a private D3 school and paying full price to go there.

[mvp]

Such a bummer to hear that sexual predators had found their way into the crew world, too. (But of course they have, right?)

I rowed in a club in California my last year in high school (while riding, too, oy vey!) and it was a great, great thing for me. Part of what made crew great was how different it was from riding, at least for someone who had plenty of work ethic, but no money. I always thought that sports where talent and build helps some, but where hard (HARD) work and teamwork played a greater part in success weeded out those who didn’t want to play by the rules. By that logic, you’d think that long-distance runners and swimmers would be of sterling character as well. Not so.

I will say, however, that years of learning to develop an independent seat and feel on horseback made some technical aspects of crew really easy. Oh, and the upper body created by all of the barn work put me ahead, too.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Oh - that makes total sense about a robust club rowing program up in the Boston area. That’s cool!

Your son will no doubt have heard the same rumors I have about the real life coach from the Tale. He was connected to the riding coach in the movie via the Penn alumni network When real life names are applied to that story as told in the movie, it’s truly stunning and chilling how some people who are part of respected society can… and do… misbehave behind closed doors.

[MHM]

@mvp

Such a bummer to hear that sexual predators had found their way into the crew world, too. (But of course they have, right?)

Do we think there’s a sport that’s free from them? Unfortunately, I doubt it.