Rider showing two horses in same eq class?

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8142200]
I read it literally, and see it differently. She rode a different horse in the jumping phase than she did in the flat phase. Not allowed.[/QUOTE]

No, she jumped both horses and only flatted one. The same horse was ridden in both phases and she effectively scratched the other ride. I would only read that literally if she jumped one and flatted another but she completed both phases on the same horse.

She must have two back numbers, or I’m not seeing how this would even work unless the judge was really inattentive?

[findeight]

I’v never shown anywhere, local, rated, breed that assigned the number to the rider, it goes with the horse as does all the office paperwork. You ride two horses, you gotta remember to switch back numbers or get called on it PDQ by the gate person, announcer and/or judge-they usually let you keep going but score you as the correct number at smaller shows. You would not get in the gate at a rated. This kid must have switched back numbers.

But Thank God for the VHSA and some of it’s denizens. Without them, we would not have weird rule interpretations, creative math calculating points and/or flagrant rule violations inspiring at least two threads a year for over a decade here on COTH. Hundreds of local associations out there but VHSA inspires at least half of the “Huh”, “Is this legal” and “Isn’t that cheating?” threads. Good job.

IMO the trainer referenced is probably more of a “trainer person” relegated to the lower levels by turning out students who don’t know the rules or do and assume it does not mean them plus need two tries to get around a jumping phase in a local show Eq class. Good job again.

Honestly, at the board meeting, OP should bring up this rider forfeiting any and all points earned riding two horses in one jumping/flat combined score Eq class. And duck, good luck with that.:no:

[vxf111]

VHSA does seem to generate an inordinate number of “is this against the rules?” Threads!

[Janet]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8142185]
If you read that literally, she is not breaking that rule - she jumps two and flats one, so one horse is ridden for both phases. She doesn’t jump one and flat the other.

So it violates the spirit but not the actual wording of the rule…[/QUOTE]

If you read it literally, once she enters the ring on horse A, she is not allowed to appear in the ring for that class on ANY OTHER HORSE unless the judge asks her to change horses.

The moment she enters the ring on horse B, she has “changed horses” (has NOT “remained on the same horse”), and violated the rule.

[Janet]

OP,

Your best bet is to call or email the USEF, and then present the USEF reply to VHSA.

[brody]

Weirdness. And easy not to catch in the moment I’d think until the scratch.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8142735]

She must have two back numbers, or I’m not seeing how this would even work unless the judge was really inattentive?[/QUOTE]

It’s the judges fault? How is a judge supposed to keep track of the names of all the riders in a class? They write the number and score the round. "That one, judge. The kid in the navy jacket, tan breeches and -insert helmet here-. (Sarcasm font)

It’s up to the competitors to act within the rules and the stewards enforce them. The trainer tried to pull a fast one, or is really that incompetent not to know standard practice. Shame on them.

[Rockfish]

[QUOTE=supernatural;8137395]
OK. In an equitation class what is being judged. Is it horse or rider? The answer is rider. Here in lies your answer. It is not OK at any show for the equitation rider to show 2 horses in the equitation class then take the one she chooses to flat on.

Each rider gets to ride ONE horse in an equitation class. Hunter classes are different. Multiple horses can be ridden then the one they like on the flat will flat. I have a hard time believing that any show circuit would allow someone to show 2 horses in the same equitation class. If so, it is illegal.

Are you sure this happened in an equitation class and not a regular Hunter class???:D:D:D:D[/QUOTE]

^this!

No honest trainer worth their salt would think this is OK. If two horses are ridden in one eq, class, one MUST be unjudged, and that unjudged horse must be declared before the start of the class. If VHSA has nothing in writting (which a lot of times, they don’t hence all the back door antics on that circuit), then USEF rules should trump.

Just another reason I try to avoid VHSA associate shows.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=lachelle;8139953]
[I]Page 1 of the VHSA Rulebook:

“The Virginia Horse Shows Association in its status as an affiliate of the US Equestrian Federation (USEF) is bound by the nature of that affiliation to abide by the rules of the USEF. In case of a conflict, the USEF rules take precedence. Likewise, in the case of Associations affiliated with the VHSA and not the USEF, the VHSA rules take precedence in shows held in Virginia.”[/I]

So any VHSA associate show held in VA is bound by VHSA and USEF rules.

[I]Page 24 of the VHSA Rulebook: (Rule 14, Part 1, Sec. 3, last line)

“Part I. Regulations for all Seats.”
“…Riders must remain on the same
mount throughout all phases of an equitation class until the judge requests a change.”[/I]

For all seats, which would include hunt seat, they must remain on the same horse.

I’m also in agreement with the poster who said that this would be just like riding the same horse in a regular hunter class twice. Can you imagine? “Well, I didn’t like my first two courses, so I’m taking a do-over”

Just…no. lol[/QUOTE]

VHSA does have a rule, USEF EQ 102.3 as well. I don’t see any ambiguity in the wording. When OP hosts her shows, pretty sure there will be a rule book handy or it will be bookmarked in a laptop or tablet device after seeing this at a show she was just attending.

Trainer person may have been doing it all over Virginia but she’s been wrong all over Virginia.

[SillyHorse]

[QUOTE=Janet;8142828]
If you read it literally, once she enters the ring on horse A, she is not allowed to appear in the ring for that class on ANY OTHER HORSE unless the judge asks her to change horses.

The moment she enters the ring on horse B, she has “changed horses” (has NOT “remained on the same horse”), and violated the rule.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. That’s what I was trying to say. As usual, you did it way much more betterer.

[gottagrey]

The trainer is incorrect and probably hasn’t been “caught” since the rider will have 2 numbers one for each horse. Since the class also offers several jumping heights - did the rider do the same heights on different horses or different heights/different horses. This is one of those things where the rule is implied since the class is judged on the rider. That trainer either has limited knowledge about showing or just likes to buck the system.

Does the trainer not realize that the flat phase is NOT a separate class but part of the same class?

I would also ask the show secretaries as obviously they would see the rider’s name listed on 2 horses.

[findeight]

No, the rider will have two numbers, one for each horse. Each horse has one number. In biggish classes with 4-6 open cards running, I can see how it could slip by.

You know, blue coat, tan breeches, tall boots, helmet on bay horses without much white-I can’t tell them apart when I know them. And who watches these classes besides parents and SOs anyway? Even those only watch their rider and pay little or no attention to others. Judges just look at back numbers on another blue coat and brown horse and try to keep them on the right card, I can see them not realizing one rider showed on two horses. Likewise the announcer and gate person just scratch off the back number.

Doesn’t make it right because nobody noticed.

[gottagrey]

[QUOTE=Janet;8142831]
OP,

Your best bet is to call or email the USEF, and then present the USEF reply to VHSA.[/QUOTE]

the OP is talking about an Associate show - they are not USEF rated or sanctioned therefore USEF has no jurisdiction resolving disputes other than to say USEF has no jurisdiction at nonUSEF shows. Additionally there is no obligation or requirement for exhibitors to be members of USEF so USEF would have no jurisdiction over any exhibitor dispute. The only thing USEF could possibly do is clarify an equitation rule, but again, this is an Associate show so USEF rules would only serve as a guideline which would be helpful in any event.

[gottagrey]

[QUOTE=findeight;8143101]
No, the rider will have two numbers, one for each horse. Each horse has one number. In biggish classes with 4-6 open cards running, I can see how it could slip by.

You know, blue coat, tan breeches, tall boots, helmet on bay horses without much white-I can’t tell them apart when I know them. And who watches these classes besides parents and SOs anyway? Even those only watch their rider and pay little or no attention to others. Judges just look at back numbers on another blue coat and brown horse and try to keep them on the right card, I can see them not realizing one rider showed on two horses. Likewise the announcer and gate person just scratch off the back number.

Doesn’t make it right because nobody noticed.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree, but the OP or VHSA board members could go back to the entry sheets to confirm that yes, Rider X had entered and rode 2 horses in an eq class; judges cards could also be used.

This is up there with a trainer who got irritated at our show management because “nobody told us running martingales weren’t allowed in an under saddle class” Please trainers, if you are going to be taking people’s money to coach them at shows, it’s best to know the rules.

[jn1193]

Definitely NOT acceptable. If a rider came into my ring in an eq class on a second horse, I would be on the radio to show management in a heartbeat. If the rider wanted to go UNJUDGED on the second horse, that’s fine - bill it as a schooling trip to the rider. But, as the judge, I would not be judging the second horse. If this was in NoVA, the judge probably wasn’t judging the second horse. Can’t think of a judge who would not question this.

[Midge]

But how many judges would notice? Kid number 25 in a navy jacket and TSs on a bay horse.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Midge;8144380]
But how many judges would notice? Kid number 25 in a navy jacket and TSs on a bay horse.[/QUOTE]

I never look at faces for any specific reason and half the time there’s no consistent announcer. A normal attired person could slip in twice and very likely I would not notice if there was a different back number.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=gottagrey;8143149]
the OP is talking about an Associate show - they are not USEF rated or sanctioned therefore USEF has no jurisdiction resolving disputes other than to say USEF has no jurisdiction at nonUSEF shows. Additionally there is no obligation or requirement for exhibitors to be members of USEF so USEF would have no jurisdiction over any exhibitor dispute. The only thing USEF could possibly do is clarify an equitation rule, but again, this is an Associate show so USEF rules would only serve as a guideline which would be helpful in any event.[/QUOTE]
My point is that VHSA SAYS it runs according to USEF rules.

Also the relevant VHSA sentence is IDENTICAL to the USEF rule.

If USEF says

“…Riders must remain on the same
mount throughout all phases of an equitation class until the judge requests a change.”

means

Rider can’t go twice in an eq class on two different horses

Then it should mean the same thing in VHSA

[Jumper_girl221]

The rider IIRC did have two different back numbers, and jumped two different heights, one at 2’ one at 2’6".

[IPEsq]

The more facts that surface, the more bizarre this gets!