Riding causing weight loss?

[grandprixer]

Hi everyone.

This is my first year having a horse on pasture going into winter. He used to be stalled at night with free choice hay and 2x daily grain. Currently, he gets 24/7 turnout on decent pasture. As the grass dies he’ll get 3 flakes of Bermuda every morning and every night plus grain. For grain, he eats 4lbs strategy, a big scoop of alfalfa pellets, 1oz platinum performance, and 1oz cal trace morning and evening.

Here’s the issue. As a TB type, he’s usually pretty lean and it’s rare i wouldn’t want more weight on him but with how much he eats already I haven’t fought too hard to get him fat. But as winter is starting, he’s getting a little leaner than I like.

Here’s the issue - he just had 4 weeks off. On those 4 weeks, he plumped right up to where I like him. Now that I’m riding again, he’s dropping. I don’t ride that hard, usually 20-30mins dressage 4 days a week and light jumping once a week.

Would you attribute the weight change to riding or no? I threw some omeprazole at him just in case but he doesn’t seem the least bit ulcery otherwise.

If you do think it’s the increase in work, how would you address it? 8 lbs of grain per day plus alfalfa is a LOT already and I feel like it’s unfair to my lovely BO to add another supplement. free choice hay isn’t an option due to the lack of stalls and him being low on the totem pole and more alfalfa will make him kill me under saddle.

TIA!

[Dutchmare433]

Can you go to a different grain that is more calorie dense than the strategy? He shouldn’t really be eating much more than 5lbs per feeding, so I might start by splitting his meals into 3 or 4 a day.

[grandprixer]

@Dutchmare433

Can you go to a different grain that is more calorie dense than the strategy? He shouldn’t really be eating much more than 5lbs per feeding, so I might start by splitting his meals into 3 or 4 a day.

It’s the only thing that hasn’t sent him into a hot ulcery mess. He did very well on safe choice at one point but as soon as I start working him on it he blows into ulcers like nobody’s business. Even on empower and a full tube of ulcergard daily.

No split feedings possible unless I came out myself every day which isn’t possible.

I’m open to grain suggestions though! Preferably in the same price range.

[Dutchmare433]

@grandprixer

It’s the only thing that hasn’t sent him into a hot ulcery mess. He did very well on safe choice at one point but as soon as I start working him on it he blows into ulcers like nobody’s business. Even on empower and a full tube of ulcergard daily.

No split feedings possible unless I came out myself every day which isn’t possible.

I’m open to grain suggestions though! Preferably in the same price range.

My go to is Triple Crown Senior, although I think it might be similar in caloric density to the Strategy, I’ve had better luck with it. I also like Purina Ultium–it’s going to be more expensive, but you’ll be able to feed less of it.

This would be a situation where I’d replace some of this grain with a top dress of something like rice bran or Omegatin, in addition to adding oil–whatever works to decrease the volume and increase the calories.

What you’re probably seeing is that the grass is no longer a decent source of calories in conjunction with starting to ride again. When will he start getting hay?

[freshman]

Have you tried Ultium? It is significantly higher fat and k/cal per pound than Strategy

[grandprixer]

@Dutchmare433

My go to is Triple Crown Senior, although I think it might be similar in caloric density to the Strategy, I’ve had better luck with it. I also like Purina Ultium–it’s going to be more expensive, but you’ll be able to feed less of it.

This would be a situation where I’d replace some of this grain with a top dress of something like rice bran or Omegatin, in addition to adding oil–whatever works to decrease the volume and increase the calories.

What you’re probably seeing is that the grass is no longer a decent source of calories in conjunction with starting to ride again. When will he start getting hay?

Thanks! He’s never done well on senior of any kind unfortunately. Rice bran plus oil will be my cure if I can’t find anything easier! I don’t want to be a huge burden on the person feeding.

He should start getting hay in the next month or so, but the grass is still lovely and green here.

[RedHorses]

1. It’s probably the riding.

2. Feed him an extra meal after you ride to replace the energy used in the ride. Days you aren’t there are also days he’s not burning extra energy while ridden.

I do this with my horse. In his case he gets 2–3 lbs of alfalfa cubes while I groom and tack up. After the ride he gets 1lb of his regular feed and 1lb of EquiJewel and sometimes more cubes if he’s cleaned everything up and wants more. He only gets this on days I’m out and gets it at whatever time it happens to be.

[Scribbler]

If he’s losing weight then the grass may be losing nutrition despite still looking nice and green.

[iJump]

@Scribbler

If he’s losing weight then the grass may be losing nutrition despite still looking nice and green.

I would also guess this. Grass where I am can be beautiful and green under the snow, but carrying much less nutrition than in summer.

[Equkelly]

I wouldn’t be feeding any horse 8lbs of grain without addressing forage needs first.

1. I would make sure the horse has grass hay in front of him at all times. Hard keepers shouldn’t be getting “meals.” They should always have access to grass if they want it. If your barn or boarding arrangements can’t offer this, you need to leave and go somewhere that does. Also as everyone said, the grass is usually nutritionally empty this time of year so I wouldn’t be depending on that for your forage needs.

2. Once you’ve addressed the hay access and the horse is still not keeping weight on then I would add in alfalfa in addition to the grass. I’d go up to 50% alfalfa for your total forage. Start with 5ish lbs a day. So if you find the horse usually eats 20 lbs of hay a day, add in a MAX of 10lbs.

3. Only after you’ve addressed #1 and #2 can we even begin the conversation about fortified feeds/ grain. I’d start with 1lb of ration balancer if that if thats not enough you can add in some fats like flax oil/ amplify or something along those lines.

4. If after all of this your horse still can’t keep weight on THEN maybe go up to a low NSC but calorie dense feed. I like ultium gastric care because it includes amplify + outlast so that might be something you could check out on especially if yours gets ulcery. I would again start small and MAX out at 5lbs especially if you’re only doing 1 feeding per day.

Any grain or fortified feed should be the LAST resort, not the first. OTTB’s usually aren’t as hard a keeper as people think. Usually their forage needs are just not being met.

[Conflicted]

Ditto the grass not sufficing. Mine are out a lot more now than they were in the summer, but they are eating much more hay when in their stalls, even though the grass looks roughly the same.

[grandprixer]

@Equkelly

I wouldn’t be feeding any horse 8lbs of grain without addressing forage needs first.

1. I would make sure the horse has grass hay in front of him at all times. Hard keepers shouldn’t be getting “meals.” They should always have access to grass if they want it. If your barn or boarding arrangements can’t offer this, you need to leave and go somewhere that does. Also as everyone said, the grass is usually nutritionally empty this time of year so I wouldn’t be depending on that for your forage needs.

2. Once you’ve addressed the hay access and the horse is still not keeping weight on then I would add in alfalfa in addition to the grass. I’d go up to 50% alfalfa for your total forage. Start with 5ish lbs a day. So if you find the horse usually eats 20 lbs of hay a day, add in a MAX of 10lbs.

3. Only after you’ve addressed #1 and #2 can we even begin the conversation about fortified feeds/ grain. I’d start with 1lb of ration balancer if that if thats not enough you can add in some fats like flax oil/ amplify or something along those lines.

4. If after all of this your horse still can’t keep weight on THEN maybe go up to a low NSC but calorie dense feed. I like ultium gastric care because it includes amplify + outlast so that might be something you could check out on especially if yours gets ulcery. I would again start small and MAX out at 5lbs especially if you’re only doing 1 feeding per day.

Any grain or fortified feed should be the LAST resort, not the first. OTTB’s usually aren’t as hard a keeper as people think. Usually their forage needs are just not being met.

Free choice anything except grass is not an option as it would require feeding all the other horses free choice and that’s way too expensive. He has free grazing access. I can ask her to start haying sooner rather than later. I also will not give him alfalfa unless I have to. He gets crazy and unrideable with even 1 flake a day, and the alfalfa pellets do the same if I give any more than I already am.

I’m doing 2 feedings, morning and night.

[grandprixer]

@RedHorses

1. It’s probably the riding.

2. Feed him an extra meal after you ride to replace the energy used in the ride. Days you aren’t there are also days he’s not burning extra energy while ridden.

I do this with my horse. In his case he gets 2–3 lbs of alfalfa cubes while I groom and tack up. After the ride he gets 1lb of his regular feed and 1lb of EquiJewel and sometimes more cubes if he’s cleaned everything up and wants more. He only gets this on days I’m out and gets it at whatever time it happens to be.

How do you know how much to feed? Is there a way to calculate how many calories he’s burning so I know how much to feed?

[JB]

@grandprixer

Hi everyone.

This is my first year having a horse on pasture going into winter. He used to be stalled at night with free choice hay and 2x daily grain. Currently, he gets 24/7 turnout on decent pasture. As the grass dies he’ll get 3 flakes of Bermuda every morning and every night plus grain. For grain, he eats 8lbs strategy, a big scoop of alfalfa pellets, 1oz platinum performance, and 1oz cal trace morning and evening.

Where are you (roughly if you don’t want to be too specific)? Some grasses now aren’t good enough. My pasture is “good enough” for 2 out of work horses but wouldn’t be good enough if they were in work.

Is his 8lb of Strategy over 2 feedings I hope?

“big scoop” - 3 quarts?

Is there a reason you’re adding PP AND CT on top of 8lb of a fortified feed?

Here’s the issue - he just had 4 weeks off. On those 4 weeks, he plumped right up to where I like him. Now that I’m riding again, he’s dropping. I don’t ride that hard, usually 20-30mins dressage 4 days a week and light jumping once a week.

Would you attribute the weight change to riding or no? I threw some omeprazole at him just in case but he doesn’t seem the least bit ulcery otherwise.

Yes, that’s enough work to burn significant enough calories

]If you do think it’s the increase in work, how would you address it? 16 lbs of grain per day plus alfalfa is a LOT already and I feel like it’s unfair to my lovely BO to add another supplement. free choice hay isn’t an option due to the lack of stalls and him being low on the totem pole and more alfalfa will make him kill me under saddle.

TIA!

Ok, hold up - your “8lbs strategy, a big scoop of alfalfa pellets” is EACH feeding? You can’t do that. You shouldn’t do that. 5lb Strategy tops, maybe another 1lb alf pellets on top of that. And for SURE do not feed additional PP and CT.

You said he hasn’t done well on "senior of any kind ". You’ve tried them ALL?

Strategy is a feed that horses tend to do really well on, or not. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground. Your horse is not doing well on it, not with this problem at 16lb of it a day on top of the pasture you’re describing.

What brands can you get?

[Simkie]

If this horse is eating 16 pounds of strategy plus 6 quarts of alfalfa pellets daily, he’s eating very little grass at all–he just has no more room to be hungry. And that’s very likely your problem. Forage FIRST, then concentrates.

Are you using Strategy or Strategy Healthy Edge? The NSC on the Strategy is something like 25%, which is too high for a lot of horses. HE is a more reasonable 17ish %.

[tabula_rashah]

Yeah, 8 lbs at one feeding plus alfalfa pellet?? No bueno. 5 at most and that’s still a lot. Strategy is often what I feed middle keeper type horses- those that need a bit more than easy keepers but don’t need super calorie dense. I would look at something like Ultium Gastric Care. You say you threw omeprazole at him, what does that mean? He sounds like a poster child for ulcers esp with as much concentrate as he’s getting. Plus get rid of the Cal trace and PP (they aren’t doing anything that your feed isn’t) and add salt and ground flax. Hay and grass-wise what you are feeding doesn’t mean too much without any numbers- testing for nutrition content, actual weight etc.

[grandprixer]

I think it’s 8lbs a day at least, in 2 feedings (I think I made a math booboo above, it’s definitely not 16lbs daily). The scoop says 2lbs on it and he gets 2 scoops with each feeding. I’m wondering if it’s less judging by the responses, he doesn’t eat more than my trainer’s eventers. I know a few horses that eat more.

He gets pp and ct at the same time because I like the all aroundness of PP but ct has more biotin, copper, and zinc for his coat and feet.

When I say I threw omeprazole at him, I gave him a full tube of ulcergard every day for 7 days and now he’s getting a half tube every day for a week, then a quarter tube. He is very much the ulcery type but atm has no symptoms other than weight loss - he’s not girthy or body sore, fantastic appetite, and working really well under saddle. He’s never felt better tbh and the lack of response to omeprazole suggests to me that it’s not an ulcer issue.

We’re located in arkansas and can get anything commonly available at tractor supply. I don’t know all the brands they have.

[grandprixer]

Haven’t tried all senior grains by any stretch. But triple crown, safe choice, dumor, and Purina senior grains have all not worked. Right now it’s just the regular strategy with the outlast added in.

tabula, I’m not understanding what you mean by the supplements not doing anything the grain isn’t. Strategy doesn’t have much copper or zinc, and zero biotin. Let alone the 101 random things in pp. Plus I’ve noticed a huge difference in his coat quality and color fading since adding the CT, haven’t seen much hoof change yet but it’s only been a few months.

[JB]

Things are very different if he’s eating 4lb, not 8lb, at a meal.

PP’s “101 random things” are pretty useless. Tiny amounts of lots of amino acids. Insignificant glucosamine. 382mg calcium, in the context of an 1100lb horse in light work needing 30gm. 14mg copper but 300mg iron. It’s a very lightly fortified v/m supplement with a hefty price tag. You’d be wayyyyyy better off with this https://yuccitup.com/products/hay-harmony

8lb of Strategy is providing 290mg copper. That’s appreciable. Same for zinc at 1,018mg. That doesn’t mean you don’t need more, and I agree you need more, since Strategy also (likely) has a lot of iron, and your forage also likely has lots.

8lb Strategy is supplying 2.18mg selenium. You’re adding another 1mg with the 1oz of CT and another .4mg in the scoop of PP. That’s something to be careful of long-term.

[grandprixer]

@JB

Things are very different if he’s eating 4lb, not 8lb, at a meal.

PP’s “101 random things” are pretty useless. Tiny amounts of lots of amino acids. Insignificant glucosamine. 382mg calcium, in the context of an 1100lb horse in light work needing 30gm. 14mg copper but 300mg iron. It’s a very lightly fortified v/m supplement with a hefty price tag. You’d be wayyyyyy better off with this https://yuccitup.com/products/hay-harmony

8lb of Strategy is providing 290mg copper. That’s appreciable. Same for zinc at 1,018mg. That doesn’t mean you don’t need more, and I agree you need more, since Strategy also (likely) has a lot of iron, and your forage also likely has lots.

8lb Strategy is supplying 2.18mg selenium. You’re adding another 1mg with the 1oz of CT and another .4mg in the scoop of PP. That’s something to be careful of long-term.

Hmm I’ve always had and seen great results with PP. I’ll do some research - I certainly wouldn’t mind not paying for it if it’s totally useless.

And yes, it’s 8lbs of grain daily. I think I messed up my conversion from scoops to lbs. 4lbs per feeding and probably 1-2lb of alfalfa pellets? I use a coffee cup for the alfalfa so it’s hard to say.

The forage hasn’t been analyzed before but nearby pastures are very very high in iron. That’s a big reason I wanted the extra copper/zinc from CT, my dark chestnut looked like a palomino (an ugly one not the nice ones).

Is there a supplement with a decent all around profile that also has some weight gain stuff? Like cool calories + minerals that I could use instead of PP. I have very limited supplement knowledge if it’s not obvious lol.