Leads? on XC -I spit tea on the keyboard - lol. Yes the sport has CHANGED when that is a comment on an eventing BB. I always felt that if I did my job and put the conditioning in and worked my horse through on both sides his softer side and his stiffer side, then as Jimmy Wofford says and I’m parafrasing (so if someone rememeber’s it correctly) “my job is to pick pace and direction” “leave the rest to the horse”.
I saw a video of a 1* stadium where the horse did the entire thing on the “wrong leads”. I had to go back and watch it again. It flowed like a hunter round and he was as straight and balanced in the counter canter as is requested at 3rd level.
LEADS - XC - “guru” - LAUGHABLE
Durumax, you are right, course design has come a long way, however, I’d love to see things a bit more “natural”. With that said, did anyone see the interview w/ the designer of the Inaugural International Hunter Derby in Ky. He went on and on about his Log jump “cord wood pile” and the fact that it was very innovative. It amused me. I was thrilled to see them use the squirrles and I know, they don’t fit my “natural” statement above. I just think they are really cute.
[QUOTE=ThroughGuru;4393018]
in many ways for the better.
Course design has radically improved and is safer. The distance into the water here was just perfectly wrong, and having a ditch to back horses off one shuffle stride away from an upright, airy white rail drop into water is nonsensical.
Horses today are far better trained and therefore more athletic. (dressage = athletic development of the horse) Not one horse in this video entered the sinkhole on the right lead. I mean, come on. At the hardest event in the country at the time, you’d think the horses could at least get their leads correct.
There were just as many huge misses back in the good old days as there are today.
Not quite sure the nostalgia really makes sense, at least not from a horse’s point of view.[/QUOTE]
Don’t think I’ve ever replied to a post before, but these comments just blew me away!
You’ve got to be kidding me!?! I envisage a sad end to what is left of the sport if ThroughGuru echoes the general voice of the players these days… 
From the horse’s point of view the natural looking obstacles of yesteryear make a whole lot more ‘sense’ in terms of things to jump over on cross country, than the manufactured ‘box of blue water’ and highly decorated fences of today.
Just a thought. We have trained our horses to jump into blue water in a box in the middle of a field, but it’s not something they ever would come across out in the country.
Yes, course design has generally gotten a lot ‘better’ in that it’s more intentinally designed, rather than putting the “road crossing” where the road happens to be, but please tell me why a ditch before rails into water is not a good idea? If the striding is bad, that’s a problem but what’s wrong with the question in general?
[QUOTE=Hilary;4394478]
From the horse’s point of view the natural looking obstacles of yesteryear make a whole lot more ‘sense’ in terms of things to jump over on cross country, than the manufactured ‘box of blue water’ and highly decorated fences of today.
Just a thought. We have trained our horses to jump into blue water in a box in the middle of a field, but it’s not something they ever would come across out in the country.
Yes, course design has generally gotten a lot ‘better’ in that it’s more intentinally designed, rather than putting the “road crossing” where the road happens to be, but please tell me why a ditch before rails into water is not a good idea? If the striding is bad, that’s a problem but what’s wrong with the question in general?[/QUOTE]
With regards to this particular fence…
The ditch was filled with water, it was placed before the bank with a related distance to the white birch rails into water.
So one “could” argue that the ditch (which the horse must lower it’s head to see and takes the focus from the bank and rails) may back the horse off to the point that it has reprecusions on the related stride to the birch rails into the water…which one could argue again that the white rails and water backed the horse off and was somewhat confusing for the horse. There is no denying the fact that there was a lot for the horse to look at before it got its feet wet.
Badminton had a double of upright white rails into water and it was thought that the white rails in bright sunlight and water was not an ideal fence design and not used since.
What I noticed was that some horses misjudged the bank out of the water. Whether that was because of the drag or stride or it was because they could not accurately make out the bank. Mike ES said that he marks the top of banks in white so that the horse has something to focus on and to judge the step up. This would make sense in this case as the bank out disappeared when the horse and rider where focused on another set of bright white birch rails two strides after the bank out.
I agree that in some instances course design has become better, that is to say that there seems to be a better understanding of what the horse sees.
Some fences on today’s courses are actually not that bad, it is where they are placed and how they are used that makes them ugly and often times unfair.
It would be nice to use what has been learned over the years and apply that to more forward gallopping courses of the past.
It should be noted that there were indeed some rather piss poor fence designs in the past. It is a learning process to see what works and what does not. As I said, barring the silly decorations that can be a hazzard…alot of the fences that we complain about on todays courses would infact ride better (and still test) if they were placed in a better way.
[QUOTE=snoopy;4394544]
Mike ES said that he marks the top of banks in white so that the horse has something to focus on and to judge the step up. [/QUOTE]
This actually doesn’t make sense given the studies that have been done on horses and color vision.
IIRC, there was a bank at Bromont that had been neutral-colored but was painted white because someone thought it would make horses see it ‘better.’ That year, two horses broke their necks at that bank.
Studies have indicated that horses see white ‘later’ than other colors (not sure what the mechanism is, they might just find it harder to judge depth or contrast when something is white). They see brown and green first – white can surprise them, sometimes too late.
(The best illustration of this I’ve seen was at a Jimmy Wofford clinic. He placed a big white rail as a groundline under an A-frame sort of natural fence. Horse after horse misjudged it (including mine) with many jumping it sideways or crashing into it. After the rail was switched for something natural-colored, the fence rode fine. It seemed the horses saw the white log very late and then it made them misjudge the fence completely. I’m not saying all white rails are bad, just that the white rail in combination with this fence caused serious vision disturbance to the horses.)
What strikes me about lots of the fences in the video is how upright they are.
I’m also intrigued about the design implications of the sloping white rails into the water. Nowadays we usually see logs and/or verticals into water, and they are not canted over the water as those birch rails were. I am wondering why. It did not seem like those birch rails rode very well, that’s for sure.
[QUOTE=JER;4394595]
This actually doesn’t make sense given the studies that have been done on horses and color vision.
IIRC, there was a bank at Bromont that had been neutral-colored but was painted white because someone thought it would make horses see it ‘better.’ That year, two horses broke their necks at that bank.
Studies have indicated that horses see white ‘later’ than other colors (not sure what the mechanism is, they might just find it harder to judge depth or contrast when something is white). They see brown and green first – white can surprise them, sometimes too late.
(The best illustration of this I’ve seen was at a Jimmy Wofford clinic. He placed a big white rail as a groundline under an A-frame sort of natural fence. Horse after horse misjudged it (including mine) with many jumping it sideways or crashing into it. After the rail was switched for something natural-colored, the fence rode fine. It seemed the horses saw the white log very late and then it made them misjudge the fence completely. I’m not saying all white rails are bad, just that the white rail in combination with this fence caused serious vision disturbance to the horses.)[/QUOTE]
JER
This could very well could be true. I am only going on what Mike ES felt when he designed the sydney course.
I agree though that white in a combination on XC and jumped at speed has has some rather ugly results.
[QUOTE=snoopy;4394544]
There is no denying the fact that there was a lot for the horse to look at before it got its feet wet…
Some fences on today’s courses are actually not that bad, it is where they are placed and how they are used that makes them ugly and often times unfair.[/QUOTE]
I don’t mean for this to sound snippy (ok, maybe just a little) but at least the horse gets to SEE it! It is the combinations today that don’t allow the horse much time to assess them that concern me the most.
[QUOTE=subk;4394648]
I don’t mean for this to sound snippy (ok, maybe just a little) but at least the horse gets to SEE it! It is the combinations today that don’t allow the horse much time to assess them that concern me the most.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely agree with you. I believe that some fences that ride badly today could actually be okay if they were placed differently on course
Here is a picture from today’s world that really, to me exemplifies what the eventing of “yesteryear” was about,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32958512/from/ET/?beginSlide=5
Here are the mounted cavalry doing hard training with their partners.
Or, snoopy, if the fences were simply designed differently, e.g. closed face logs instead of white open rails in to the water.
Reed
lcarry At my first three day, in Canada, I carried 1/2 pound; it seemed so crazy to have to buy/ borrow a weight pad just for that; it was suggeted that I put it in my :lol:boot, but, then, I might jog uneven:eek:eand get my horse:winkgrin: spun:lol:e for some reason at Radnor 5 years later I had to carry so much weight , 12 pounds, that I had difficulty getting on:eek:the scale, and then resaddling my horse; until some kind ;)gentleman came to my;) aid;)
seem to move?
This could very well could be true. I am only going on what Mike ES felt when he designed the sydney course.
I agree though that white in a combination on XC a
why?
If course design has improved :yes:;)and eventing/ XC today is "softer :owhy have tthere been so many more fatalities?
what are the facts?
; have there in fact been more:confused:, or, are they simply more evident due to the public forum, tv/ internet in which they occur? do we have statistics on numbers yet:confused:?
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4394956]
If course design has improved :yes:;)and eventing/ XC today is "softer :owhy have tthere been so many more fatalities?[/QUOTE]
The courses are “softer” as they are shorter. The horses no longer have to be as fit/conditioned. There is no warm-up/priming the pump of the horse as there was with R&T and Steeplechase. At the same time they are over trained in dressage, losing their initiative on XC to again do, as another post here pointed out, take over once the rider has pointed them to the fence.
At the same time, there are too cases of overusing “drugs” such as legend and adequan which can cause bleeding in horses undergoing excessive stress.
The horsemanship has been de-emphasized in order to allow for the economics of a trainer needing to make a living.
And I agree, any incident is immediately available for the public with all of the outlets by which we get our information. Thus, it can appear there are more fatalities, however we will never know as the record keeping of the past was not good at all.
[QUOTE=RAyers;4394732]
Here is a picture from today’s world that really, to me exemplifies what the eventing of “yesteryear” was about,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32958512/from/ET/?beginSlide=5
Here are the mounted cavalry doing hard training with their partners. [/QUOTE]
Sorry I may be being a bit thick here, but that picture is of riding on the beach during a break from duties, not doing any training
the Marras’ horses
Does anyone remember names of Mikes’ andTorrances’ horses; they were both owned by Ron Marra weren’t they? There was a somewhat controversial :oscene which, has been cut; in which, they discuss a fall:eek: and Mikes’ decision to continue:mad:
Must be…
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4395066]
Does anyone remember names of Mikes’ andTorrances’ horses; they were both owned by Ron Marra weren’t they?[/QUOTE]
Didn’t Torrance ride a chestnut named Laurenson about that time frame?
[QUOTE=nomeolvides;4395034]
Sorry I may be being a bit thick here, but that picture is of riding on the beach during a break from duties, not doing any training [/QUOTE]
My point, playing is as much learning/training as arena work. This exercise does more to develop confidence and trust between horse and rider than any formal training program. As my trainer mentioned once, a lot of his training for Rolex was done riding his horse to his girlfriend’s house.
