Riding on the shoulder of the road-- legal?

[cnvh]

My friend and I had an altercation with one of our boarding barn’s neighbors tonight, and I’m wondering who was right-- us, or him?

Friend and I (and my DH on foot, with our dogs on leash) left our boarding barn tonight and rode along a public, paved/double-lined, two-lane road, to a public-use riding trail. The road bisects a neighboring farmer’s hayfields; on either side, he mows approximately 10’ as a lawn, and the hayfields sit beyond the lawn-mowed section.

Said farmer was on his tractor, moving bales of hay to/from his barn, when we were riding along the road on our way back from our trail ride. Friend and I were riding single-file in the grass along the edge of the road, within 3’ of the blacktop-- the road in that area is curved and on a hill, and for visibility purposes, it behooves us to be off the actual pavement if at all possible.

Farmer is known to be a grump, and he previously yelled at us when one of our horses spooked at his tractor and backed 10’ into his (recently-mowed) hayfield. We had caused absolutely NO damage-- it was a hayfield, not a planted crop like corn or soybeans; Horse was gotten under control and back on the road within 15 seconds, and there wasn’t a bit of visible damage whatsoever, but he got all worked up and yelled at us for “riding in his crops.” (Sigh.)

So tonight, Farmer was out moving his hay into his barn, and he saw us riding along the edge of the road. He proceeded to yell at us for riding in his grass. (Mind you, we were less than 3’ off the pavement.) And when we didn’t get off the grass quickly enough for his liking, he proceeded to start cussing at us. :no:

DH (who was along on foot, with our dogs on-leash) is a former Marine, and did not take kindly to Farmer cussing at us for being on “his” grass. DH mustered up his Drill Instructor voice and proceeded to less-than-politely inform Farmer that we were within the f***ing easement. :eek:

Farmer yelled some, DH yelled some more. Fortunately, Farmer stayed on his tractor, and DH stayed on the road; we continued home, and Farmer continued with his business. Our horses, bless them, minded their manners and behaved themselves.

So… who’s right? Does anyone have any experience with this?

I checked PA codes… with few exceptions, the right-of-ways for all public roads in this state are considered to be 33’ wide. Having not measured the actual road in question, I am 99.999% sure that we were still comfortably within public right-of-way, riding our horses single-file within 3’ of the edge of the road surface.

I have no interest in antagonizing this farmer, but at the same time, I am not about to be cussed at for being within my rights, either. It’s a public road-- I’m allowed to ride on it, and I believe I should be allowed to stay out of the way of oncoming vehicles as necessary as well.

Thoughts?

[gypsymare]

There isn’t always an easement. My neighbor has no easement between the road and his property because of existing structures. It makes a really funky pattern. Our road frontage has a much larger easement on one side than the frontage on the other side does.

The farmer is still being unreasonable but if it’s a matter of figuring out if he’s right you could check the zoning maps.

[cnvh]

I’ve checked the county GIS maps… Farmer leases the land from a large trust; he doesn’t own it. I have yet to find a map which specifically notes easements and/or right-of-way.

[Guilherme]

Does your county have “road commissioner” or someone with a title like that? If so ask them to show you the maps they use in your area. They are likely to be the most correct ones you will find.

If that doesn’t work call your local sheriff’s office and ask them.

If the farmer leases the land then he has the right to exclude anyone except folks who the lease says may enter the property. He need not own it to do this.

You might also ask the sheriff about local criminal trespass law. That would be a “nice to know.”

In today’s world I’d avoid “screaming matches.” They have a way of “going south” and even former Marines are not bulletproof.

G.

[Tuffytown]

There should be county plat or kroll maps. They would show the right of way. Generally around here its 60-70 feet, 30-35 each side of centerline but I think our more recently established platting requires much larger ROW than older communities back east. Lanes are 10-12 feet wide usually.

[cnvh]

@Guilherme;7684097

In today’s world I’d avoid “screaming matches.” They have a way of “going south” and even former Marines are not bulletproof.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. Personally, the extent of my reply, once he started cussing, would have been to flip him the bird and ride on, lol… Unfortunately, DH does not share my disinterest in making it into a “thing,” as he recalled our problems with Farmer previously and probably turned it into a testosterone issue. (Hence, wars are generally a “man” thing, are they not? lol…)

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=cnvh;7684086]
I’ve checked the county GIS maps… Farmer leases the land from a large trust; he doesn’t own it. I have yet to find a map which specifically notes easements and/or right-of-way.[/QUOTE]

If you cannot find a road commissioner, contact the county commissioner or go to the county’s tax office, they will have the maps there and someone to explain to you what you need to know. Next time though, I would just ignore him entirely, let him yell and scream all he wants, just do not respond period, no hand gestures nothing, just nod and smile and go on your way. If he gets off his tractor or approaches you in a threatening manner do not engage with him, keep going, just know your rights and take it to the police if necessary. Can you ride on the opposite side of the road until you know how you stand legally?

[cnvh]

[QUOTE=Calamber;7684111]
Can you ride on the opposite side of the road until you know how you stand legally?[/QUOTE]

He owns one side of the road outright; the other side, he sold a few years ago to the local trust. We were on “his” side tonight; now I know to stay to the other side. But regardless, I’m still pretty sure we were still within right-of-way regardless of side.

The interwebs is not telling me what I need to know… methinks I will need to either go to the courthouse in person, or else engage the township DOT people by phone, to get a definitive answer.

[HungarianHippo]

It’s a pretty safe bet, if you really were within 3ft of pavement edge, that you were within the public ROW.

Where you are 100% wrong, however, is to dismiss with a sarcastic (sigh) his concerns when one of your crew rode 10ft into his hayfield. That your friend lost control of her horse is not his fault. And it is completely irrelevant whether you consider hay a real crop (um, it is). Or whether you think you caused damage or not. Or whether he owns the land or “just” leases it. Which, newsflash, gives him legal rights / possession to the land, including the right to tell you to get off his land. If you lease a car, does that mean anyone can use it (because, well, it’s not like YOU own it, so where do you get off telling me I can’t use it?) If someone hops on your horse without permission, would your anger disappear if they told you they didn’t damage your horse?

So, yes you can move around within the public ROW. That’s not going to stop the farmer from getting after you because, well, he hasn’t had good experiences with this particular group of riders. Given his unlucky proximity to the public use riding trail, I’m guessing that farmer has the pleasure of meeting lots and lots of inconsiderate riders. If you don’t want to be cussed out, you may have some fence-mending to do-- head over there with a custard pie and your hat in in your hand and show him that you respect his property rights.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;7684124]
So, yes you can move around within the public ROW. That’s not going to stop the farmer from getting after you because, well, he hasn’t had good experiences with this particular group of riders. Given his unlucky proximity to the public use riding trail, I’m guessing that farmer has the pleasure of meeting lots and lots of inconsiderate riders. [/QUOTE]

Just want to quote this and say - absolutely right. The hayfield down the road from us has had kids gallop through it, dirtbikes ride through it, kids drink beer in it, 4-wheelers tear it up…they are also known as the local grumps, and will call the police on you. But they have dealt with trespassers for years.

I recently kicked some trail riders off of our posted acreage - that we bought two years ago after it had been owned by an absentee owner and used as a public highway by anything that moves. I’m sure I came off as a grump as well…but answered the “but we didn’t go off the trail and didn’t think anyone would mind” with “if we didn’t mind…we wouldn’t have posted it!”

If you’re really within 3’ of the pavement, I’m sure you are correct that it is the public right of way. Call your Town Hall and I’m sure someone will give you the answer quickly. The post above that says 30-35’ of the centerline is potentially very wrong…on my road (which is only about 30 wide) you’d be in my front yard.

[fordtraktor]

Just ride on the pavement past his place and get off the road only when a car is actually coming, maybe?

Riding in a hayfield can do a lot of damage. I know it might not seem like it to you, but it does. I grew up on a hay farm and my dad never, ever let me ride my pony in the hay fields! Just around them.

[ayrabz]

just wanted to add: OP, you stated your situation, past issues, and concerns with open facts and acknowledgement of needing to weed out the actual rules. I thought it was very unbiased and well written. And HHippo, same back at you! Nice exchange of information on a topic we can all learn from.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;7684124]
It’s a pretty safe bet, if you really were within 3ft of pavement edge, that you were within the public ROW.

Where you are 100% wrong, however, is to dismiss with a sarcastic (sigh) his concerns when one of your crew rode 10ft into his hayfield. That your friend lost control of her horse is not his fault. And it is completely irrelevant whether you consider hay a real crop (um, it is). Or whether you think you caused damage or not. .[/QUOTE]

Chiming in as another landowner with “just” hayfields, and “just” corn fields, who has kicked trespassers off more than once. The appropriate response would have been to sincerely apologize.

What people don’t realize is that yes, while you may not intentionally be causing damage or have damaged anything in this particular incident, there have been 1000000 trespassers before you who HAVE. So, right or wrong, landowners do start to get a little jaded and sometimes jump to “Get the heck off my property!” a little faster than outsiders necessarily deem proper…but that’s also probably because it’s the 4th time this week they’ve had to say it.

[2DogsFarm]

Agree with HHippo & fordt
A hayfield IS a crop & can be damaged by hooves digging in.

Do yourself a favor, find out if you are truly riding on public land.
Even if you are legally in the right, it might just be easier - considering your already unpleasant contact with this guy - to just get on the road until you are past his fields.

Years ago I had a similar situation.
To get to trails we had to ride through neighbor’s property after riding along the shoulder of the road past the front of the property .
BO obtained permission for us to do so from the landowner, and as long as we kept to the path he mowed (they had horses too) we were welcome.
Too bad your BO did not do the same.

[saje]

There was an area of road I had to ride where I would have preferred to be off n the shoulder, but the land owners were very very touchy about their grass (even though technically it was a public easement). I decided it was in everyone’s best interests if I just trotted on the pavement for that chunk, it was less than 1/3 of a mile. It got me past the curvy bit of road and away from the precious grass quickly, and that short bit of hard pavement wasn’t going to do my horse’s legs any harm.

I also never rode that route if it were a windy day - I wanted to be able to hear cars coming.

[cnvh]

As for the “hayfield isn’t a real crop” thing… Come on now. I grew up on a farm, we baled hay; my dad’s baling this weekend in fact. Yes, it’s a cash crop, but a (barefoot) horse stepping across a non-muddy, recently-baled hayfield is NOT causing damage. Had one of our horses taken out a swath of corn, I’d have been mortified and offered cash on the spot, but it’s comparing apples and oranges. (And yes, we did apologize for that infraction. He continued to gripe at us even after we apologized. I’m not sure what else we were expected to do, considering that we didn’t actually harm anything other than his nerves.)

[independentlyawesome]

In similar situations, I always ride on the road. Even though it’s a public easement, I respect a landowner’s desire to have a nice looking patch of land next to the road. I rode with foxhunters growing up, but we always conditioned our horses to be OK riding on the road.

Given your history of disregarding his concern when your friend trampled his crop, I’m not surprised that he got angry at you. He already knows that your friend will lose control of her horse and trample his crops if something “scary” happens, so it’s not surprising he doesn’t want you at the edge of his land again.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=cnvh;7684110]
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. Personally, the extent of my reply, once he started cussing, would have been to flip him the bird and ride on, lol… Unfortunately, DH does not share my disinterest in making it into a “thing,” as he recalled our problems with Farmer previously and probably turned it into a testosterone issue. (Hence, wars are generally a “man” thing, are they not? lol…)[/QUOTE]

No, not really!!!

I’m retired Navy but have spent a lot of time with Marines over the years. They’re good folks but sometimes bet a bit “enthusiastic.” If they didn’t they probably would not have become Marines.

The answer to your question on ROW will likely lie in the courthouse. Our Property Assessor has a mapping system that covers every parcel in the county and notes the ROW in most instances. It’s very easy to figure out the ROW. The county road guru, however they might be called, is the other person likely to have detailed, accurate maps available because that’s how they know what roads are public or private and how far they can work off the road for its maintenance.

If the farmer again acts in an aggressive manner I’d call the sheriff and make a report. It’s unlikely that anything will come of it (but you might get surprised) but it will put the matter “in the record” in the event of an escalation.

G.

[SmartAlex]

Call the town highway dept. Whomever you would call to get your ditches cleaned or potholes fixed. They will know how far the right of way extends in your township.

[Coanteen]

Next time just leave DH behind if he can’t ignore grumpiness without needlessly escalating the situation. In fact, a Marine should know better.