Riding Student falls- procedure and etiquette

[darcilyna]

@mmeqcenter

She’s 11, and ridden “off and on” for two years, if I’m remembering correctly. She is a green, inexperienced rider, and should not be expected to deal with or take charge of a pony pulling a bad habit that’s getting her off. In my example where I fell off eight times in one lesson, I was a more experienced teen who was jumping 3’6’’-4’ and loved the greenies (still do). That is not the case with this young girl, and it is unfair to expect the exact same “mental toughness” out of everyone. Everyone’s different, and obviously this lesson didn’t “toughen her up” mentally, it broke her down instead.
There’s a reason (most) people start kids and new riders on safe “schoolmaster” types. They have to have solid “sea legs” and know how to handle the normal stuff before learning to deal with the tough stuff. A pony purposefully stopping and dropping the shoulder/head to get its rider off is not a safe schoolmaster. This rider was very obviously over-mounted. Yes, she should have sat back and pulled his head up. Clearly, she didn’t know that, no one told her that, and/or she wasn’t strong enough to do it. This is over-mounted, and possibly under-instructed. She should be allowed to learn strength and confidence on a safe mount; she can test her will and strength again on “Mr Head Dropper” after a year of practice, strength gain, and confidence-building.

Honestly, OP, I’m not surprised either at the response from the BO/HT. They’re sounding pretty defensive, so may be worried about a lawsuit. You can try to be as sensitive in the in-person discussion as you want, but be prepared for the exact same kind of response as you got in the text. My favorite trainer ever (obviously not the one I fell off eight times in one lesson with) would never have responded in such a way, she would have said absolutely she can ride a different one for a while, and when she’s feeling more confident we’ll put her back on the pony. Even before that, she’d have had an experienced rider come in and school the pony (trainer was like 6’ tall or she’d have done it herself) for a few minutes after the kid fell off the second time, but it is what it is. People are who they are - when they show you, believe them.

first the day she did her first poles and cross poles (is that what they’re called?). 5 months ago
https://youtu.be/UAcR-Ij3k40

Then this is last day of summer camp this year. Cantering etc. July so roughly 4-6 weeks ago.
”‹”‹”‹”‹https://youtu.be/xBhdL_EOcQ0

[darcilyna]

@Scribbler

You are not going to get any admission of responsibility in a text discussion because the barn knows perfectly well your next stop could be your lawyer if your medical insurer decides to sue for costs.

Have a discussion in person about moving forward that does not involve trying to place blame. Your daughter clearly doesn’t ride that well yet at least on emergencies and the trainers aren’t alert enough to see that. It’s perfectly fine for kid to want to return to riding on a quieter horse or at a walk.

These COTH threads are full of adult riders discussing how they lost their nerve after a fall or injury. Somehow we expect kids to be more resilient or that its s moral failure if they develop fears. Much better to address fears same as if it was an adult beginner rider.

first the day she did her first poles and cross poles (is that what they’re called?). 5 months ago
https://youtu.be/UAcR-Ij3k40

Then this is last day of summer camp this year. Cantering etc. July so roughly 4-6 weeks ago.
”‹”‹”‹”‹https://youtu.be/xBhdL_EOcQ0

[darcilyna]

@tbchick84

I have a few lines of thought here.

1. School horses can be stubborn and difficult since they have to deal with lots of green riders pulling, kicking, and flopping around up there. Most are saints, but once they get to the “screw this” point, they become dirty stoppers, buckers, etc. Personally, I would only put an experienced riders on a dirty stopper, which brings me to my next thought.

2. I have no way of knowing what level of experience your daughter has. If she’s coming unseated frequently, it suggests she does not have a secure seat. When she first started riding, did the trainer put her on a lunge line so she could develop a feel for proper seat and balance? Your daughter sounds like she could greatly benefit from a stronger foundation before moving onto cantering and certainly jumping. At the very least, I would ask that she be on a horse who show her the ropes until she is very comfortable up there. Until you can walk/trot/canter well, jumping should not be in the picture.

3. With beginners, there seem to be two schools of thought. Some barns do lots of what are callled “up/down” lessons to help the new riders develop a feel for the horse. They learn how to post, leg placement, etc on a lunge line so they don’t have to worry about steering or even controlling the horse. They make sure the students can W/T/C at all three gaits, before they even ride off the lunge line.

The other extreme is the barn that puts your kid on a horse, hand them the reins and tell them to kick to go and pull to stop. These are kids that usually end up falling off a lot and most quickly lose interest in riding. While these are extremes, it does sounds your daughter is at the latter barn to an extent.

4. As for the actual fall, if the head hit the ground at all, riding is done for that day. Get her checked for concussion. If she merely fell off and was just dirty but not broken, remount and move on. When in doubt , a visit to the urgent care center is never a bad idea. If your daughter continues to ride, you will start to see a pattern with doctors rolling their eyes every time she asks “when can I ride again?” While I hear your desire to run to her when she falls, she sounds like she’s handling it just fine. Riders are a tough bunch. You mention she is shy. It will definitely help her find her voice. I’m sure you will see a positive change there. That all being said, her first lesson should have included how to fall safely. Always tuck and roll. It greatly lessens the impact and would have prevented a broken wrist. I’m guessing she tried to brace herself on landing.

5. If you’re watching the lessons and wondering if you have her with the right program and instructor, here are some things to look for. Does she look secure on the horse? Is she sitting up tall or is she slouched over and grabbing mane to save her balance? Is her lower leg still with her heels down, or is it dancing all over the place? Is she riding better at the end of her lessons than when she first got on? Watch lessons at some other barns if you can. You might notice some things for better or worse in comparison to your daughter’s lessons. Most kids want to get to the jumping part, but she’s young and has plenty of time to get there.

You’re a good mom for asking these questions. Sorry your daughter got hooked on such an expensive sport!

first the day she did her first poles and cross poles (is that what they’re called?). 5 months ago
https://youtu.be/UAcR-Ij3k40

Then this is last day of summer camp this year. Cantering etc. July so roughly 4-6 weeks ago.
”‹”‹”‹”‹https://youtu.be/xBhdL_EOcQ0

[darcilyna]

@Belowthesalt

Just as an aside, sounds like the pony might just need a grazing overcheck.

I, as an adult, have gotten back on with a broken wrist, but I broke it cleaning the stall (pulled on a muckcart handle and it came off, my arm hit the wall). I bandage it, rode (my own, reliable horse), went home and iced it. It kept hurting, went to the ER, Sigh, But I am an adult and to me it was “Oh, that was really dumb.”

I do think that your daughter is still very much a beginner and needs a program with more reliable horses/ponies, because, beginner or not, coming off three times in one lesson is too much. It is fortunate that it’s ONLY a broken wrist.

Is there a pony club in your area? Often they have ponies that are shared or loaned (outgrown by older kids, etc.). The “all around” nature of Pony Club, with grooming, stable management, etc., besides riding is excellent for any kid.

first the day she did her first poles and cross poles (is that what they’re called?). 5 months ago
https://youtu.be/UAcR-Ij3k40

Then this is last day of summer camp this year. Cantering etc. July so roughly 4-6 weeks ago.
”‹”‹”‹”‹https://youtu.be/xBhdL_EOcQ0

[darcilyna]

@tbchick84

I have a few lines of thought here.

1. School horses can be stubborn and difficult since they have to deal with lots of green riders pulling, kicking, and flopping around up there. Most are saints, but once they get to the “screw this” point, they become dirty stoppers, buckers, etc. Personally, I would only put an experienced riders on a dirty stopper, which brings me to my next thought.

2. I have no way of knowing what level of experience your daughter has. If she’s coming unseated frequently, it suggests she does not have a secure seat. When she first started riding, did the trainer put her on a lunge line so she could develop a feel for proper seat and balance? Your daughter sounds like she could greatly benefit from a stronger foundation before moving onto cantering and certainly jumping. At the very least, I would ask that she be on a horse who show her the ropes until she is very comfortable up there. Until you can walk/trot/canter well, jumping should not be in the picture.

3. With beginners, there seem to be two schools of thought. Some barns do lots of what are callled “up/down” lessons to help the new riders develop a feel for the horse. They learn how to post, leg placement, etc on a lunge line so they don’t have to worry about steering or even controlling the horse. They make sure the students can W/T/C at all three gaits, before they even ride off the lunge line.

The other extreme is the barn that puts your kid on a horse, hand them the reins and tell them to kick to go and pull to stop. These are kids that usually end up falling off a lot and most quickly lose interest in riding. While these are extremes, it does sounds your daughter is at the latter barn to an extent.

4. As for the actual fall, if the head hit the ground at all, riding is done for that day. Get her checked for concussion. If she merely fell off and was just dirty but not broken, remount and move on. When in doubt , a visit to the urgent care center is never a bad idea. If your daughter continues to ride, you will start to see a pattern with doctors rolling their eyes every time she asks “when can I ride again?” While I hear your desire to run to her when she falls, she sounds like she’s handling it just fine. Riders are a tough bunch. You mention she is shy. It will definitely help her find her voice. I’m sure you will see a positive change there. That all being said, her first lesson should have included how to fall safely. Always tuck and roll. It greatly lessens the impact and would have prevented a broken wrist. I’m guessing she tried to brace herself on landing.

5. If you’re watching the lessons and wondering if you have her with the right program and instructor, here are some things to look for. Does she look secure on the horse? Is she sitting up tall or is she slouched over and grabbing mane to save her balance? Is her lower leg still with her heels down, or is it dancing all over the place? Is she riding better at the end of her lessons than when she first got on? Watch lessons at some other barns if you can. You might notice some things for better or worse in comparison to your daughter’s lessons. Most kids want to get to the jumping part, but she’s young and has plenty of time to get there.

You’re a good mom for asking these questions. Sorry your daughter got hooked on such an expensive sport!

first the day she did her first poles and cross poles (is that what they’re called?). 5 months ago
https://youtu.be/UAcR-Ij3k40

Then this is last day of summer camp this year. Cantering etc. July so roughly 4-6 weeks ago.
”‹”‹”‹”‹https://youtu.be/xBhdL_EOcQ0

[merrygoround]

Just watching the video. Your daughter is at the stage of rising from her stirrups at the trot. Her seat is very loose. She really is not ready for cross rails even though her second effort was quite nice.

Her canter also shows her relying on her stirrups and bouncing in the canter.

She really does need longe work without stirrups to help her stabilize that seat., and position.

[mmeqcenter]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish by showing us those videos? Very cute little rider and she’s doing a great job, but yes, obviously quite green and insecure (physically) in her position.
Yes, “cross poles” is correct, or “cross rails”.
She went over Xs before she first cantered? That’s a strange progression. Some trainers feel the need to start them over poles and fences ASAP to prevent them from getting bored. Doesn’t make it okay.

Poles are fine, but I don’t let them jump until they can walk, trot, and canter without stirrups.

[darcilyna]

@mmeqcenter

I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish by showing us those videos? Very cute little rider and she’s doing a great job, but yes, obviously quite green and insecure (physically) in her position.
Yes, “cross poles” is correct, or “cross rails”.
She went over Xs before she first cantered? That’s a strange progression. Some trainers feel the need to start them over poles and fences ASAP to prevent them from getting bored. Doesn’t make it okay.

Poles are fine, but I don’t let them jump until they can walk, trot, and canter without stirrups.

I was trying to get confirmation on everyone’s assessment. I see if more now that she is insecure up there but thought those coaches and trainers could confirm.

[darcilyna]

@merrygoround

Just watching the video. Your daughter is at the stage of rising from her stirrups at the trot. Her seat is very loose. She really is not ready for cross rails even though her second effort was quite nice.

Her canter also shows her relying on her stirrups and bouncing in the canter.

She really does need longe work without stirrups to help her stabilize that seat., and position.

Thanks for your assessment. I was posting to try and confirm some of what everyone was saying.

[Arlomine]

Very loose core, resulting in loose seat. This is why camp instructor is yelling “sit up…TALLER” so many times.

No, I would not be jumping this kid. She could, at her level, do entire courses of trot poles, focusing on path, using corners, pace, position…

She would be on the longe for a portion of the lesson, lots of trot minus stirrups: doing arm circles, two point no hands, around the world, and other movements to develop her seat and core.

All programs are different.
You could find a good dressage program because they focus on seat, if there are not H/J programs locally who produce balanced, strong riders.
Branch out to jumping after she can W/T/C without stirrups or reins.

[darcilyna]

@Arlomine

Very loose core, resulting in loose seat. This is why camp instructor is yelling “sit up…TALLER” so many times.

No, I would not be jumping this kid. She could, at her level, do entire courses of trot poles, focusing on path, using corners, pace, position…

She would be on the longe for a portion of the lesson, lots of trot minus stirrups: doing arm circles, two point no hands, around the world, and other movements to develop her seat and core.

All programs are different.
You could find a good dressage program because they focus on seat, if there are not H/J programs locally who produce balanced, strong riders.
Branch out to jumping after she can W/T/C without stirrups or reins.

Thanks! She only ever went over poles and cross rails… No “jumping” beyond that. Thank you for your input instruction…I am definitely taking notes to possibly find a new program!

Would you recommend off horse workouts like one suggested pilates? She is off for 4 more weeks due to her wrist and could be strengthening her stomach muscles at the very least

[x]

The biggest thing I am noticing right away is that her foot is way too far in the stirrup to be safe–it is common for kids to loose the placement of their foot in the stirrup when they are first learning, but we immediately bring them back to a walk and correct it. Cantering and jumping with that foot placement not only does not allow her to properly have her heel down, it is unsafe if she were to fall off as her foot could get caught in the stirrup(although with the safety stirrups it isn’t as big of a concern). But maybe it is just that moment in the video and she isn’t that way that often. But if it is, I would say she is in no way ready for IEA.

[Scribbler]

Nice beginner kid.

Her seat is very unstable at the center, she pops up and lands on the horses back at every stride. No balance for surviving problems or the unexpected. I also notice at the very end of the video her arms are very straight and she gets pulled forward as the horse lowers his head after he halts.

She’s just a beginner kid without a real independent seat yet who does not have the physical skills to school a naughty pony or stick on during problems. That said, she has a nice tidy look about her riding and may be naturally comfortable up there. May have natural aptitude.

But riding is a high risk high skill sport. You need a lot of practice to be safe at it. More than even downhill skiing or white water kayaking. It’s not a sport you can dabble in safely.

[staceymc]

@darcilyna

first the day she did her first poles and cross poles (is that what they’re called?). 5 months ago
https://youtu.be/UAcR-Ij3k40

Then this is last day of summer camp this year. Cantering etc. July so roughly 4-6 weeks ago.
”‹”‹”‹”‹https://youtu.be/xBhdL_EOcQ0

There is so much wrong in that 2nd video that I almost don’t know where to start. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is that this trainer has a school horse in draw reins or a neck stretcher (can’t quite tell exactly what it is from the video). With a green beginner on it’s back. If your school horse needs draw reins or a neck stretcher for a beginner to ride it, then this is not an appropriate mount! I’m not anti-draw reins either but WTH.

Then we have the fact that the horse repeatedly cross canters and will not hold the lead with its hind end. Swaps leads back and forth behind many time during that first end. That’s a sign of hind end issues.

Your daughter is a nice little beginner. But she is exactly that. A very green beginner who does not have her balance, a deep heel, or a strong core. She should not be doing IEA. I’m sorry you’ve already paid, but I would not continue with that even if it means losing the money.

And find a new trainer/barn immediately.

[darcilyna]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;n10472thajs 799]
Nice beginner kid.

Her seat is very unstable at the center, she pops up and lands on the horses back at every stride. No balance for surviving problems or the unexpected. I also notice at the very end of the video her arms are very straight and she gets pulled forward as the horse lowers his head after he halts.

She’s just a beginner kid without a real independent seat yet who does not have the physical skills to school a naughty pony or stick on during problems. That said, she has a nice tidy look about her riding and may be naturally comfortable up there. May have natural aptitude.

But riding is a high risk high skill sport. You need a lot of practice to be safe at it. More than even downhill skiing or white water kayaking. It’s not a sport you can dabble in safely. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input!

She says that the small bounce during trot is
sitting the trot
And that she is supposed to learn a canter sitting
Then you learn “light seat” (says she is at that point)

I’ve been trying to ask her without making judgement just about how she has learned and where she is at… She seems overly confident which is kindof her MO

I am trying to learn and make a big decision as to whether to discuss some of this with her current trainers or just find a barn with better instruction.

[darcilyna]

@staceymc

There is so much wrong in that 2nd video that I almost don’t know where to start. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is that this trainer has a school horse in draw reins or a neck stretcher (can’t quite tell exactly what it is from the video). With a green beginner on it’s back. If your school horse needs draw reins or a neck stretcher for a beginner to ride it, then this is not an appropriate mount! I’m not anti-draw reins either but WTH.

Then we have the fact that the horse repeatedly cross canters and will not hold the lead with its hind end. Swaps leads back and forth behind many time during that first end. That’s a sign of hind end issues.

Your daughter is a nice little beginner. But she is exactly that. A very green beginner who does not have her balance, a deep heel, or a strong core. She should not be doing IEA. I’m sorry you’ve already paid, but I would not continue with that even if it means losing the money.

And find a new trainer/barn immediately.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate the honesty.

[Scribbler]

@darcilyna

Thanks for your input!

She says that the small bounce during trot is
sitting the trot
And that she is supposed to learn a canter sitting
Then you learn “light seat” (says she is at that point)

I’ve been trying to ask her without making judgement just about how she has learned and where she is at… She seems overly confident which is kindof her MO

I am trying to learn and make a big decision as to whether to discuss some of this with her current trainers or just find a barn with better instruction.

She should learn a sitting canter, absolutely, before she learns light seat. But right now she is not able to sit the canter. She is being tossed in the air at each stride. I didn’t pick up on the fact that the horse is swapping leads behind, but that would make it harder to sit. However, she just doesn’t have the balance or strength to sit the canter yet. She needs a bunch of longue lessons to get that seat, before she is asked to pilot a horse around even a course of poles independently. Either that or do what I did, which was hold onto the saddle horn and race my pony up the Gravel Pit Road with my risk-taking little friends because we knew the horses would all slow down running up the side of the quarry so we were safe to Yee Haw!!!

What I mean is she needs practice to build that seat because right now she is one stumble or spook away from just toppling off.

Confident is great. Build on that confidence. Get her good teachers and allow her to take enough lessons to really get somewhere (of course dependent on your own finances, I realize not everyone can afford that).

Sitting trot your butt should never leave the seat, you sit in and kind of bloooop along.

The confidence and the comfort on the horse is a fantastic gift, and she looks nice up there. Just don’t let poor teachers destroy that confidence and comfort by pushing her too hard or skipping out the basics because they don’t understand them themselves.

[Scribbler]

go find a better barn.

the instructors can’t fix what they don’t know how to fix. I would not bother discussing it with them. The injury makes a good chance to just go check out some different barns after daughter is mobile. Go do some trial lessons, and if you find a place that suits, just start up there.

If it turns out that your original barn is indeed the best choice in a thin market and everything else is a scary mudpit, then you can go back to the original barn and at that point request that she have some attention paid to her seat and balance.

[darcilyna]

@staceymc

There is so much wrong in that 2nd video that I almost don’t know where to start. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is that this trainer has a school horse in draw reins or a neck stretcher (can’t quite tell exactly what it is from the video). With a green beginner on it’s back. If your school horse needs draw reins or a neck stretcher for a beginner to ride it, then this is not an appropriate mount! I’m not anti-draw reins either but WTH.

Then we have the fact that the horse repeatedly cross canters and will not hold the lead with its hind end. Swaps leads back and forth behind many time during that first end. That’s a sign of hind end issues.

Your daughter is a nice little beginner. But she is exactly that. A very green beginner who does not have her balance, a deep heel, or a strong core. She should not be doing IEA. I’m sorry you’ve already paid, but I would not continue with that even if it means losing the money.

And find a new trainer/barn immediately.

DD says it’s a neck stretcher because the horse is “used to having contact with his mouth”
🤷

[luckymaverick]

If I may add one more question to ask- if the barn has a summer camp, ask them what happens to the ponies after camp. Some barns drop off camp horses into the slaughter pipeline, or couch it as getting a new string every year. Good barns do not do this. My current barn uses lesson horses for camps and we keep the horses forever. It goes to philosophy and horse care