My first reaction was “why did you buy this horse?” then I reread and realized you didn’t.
Second reaction is you’re getting some really poor coaching there. Possibly on a horse in pain.
Is this your first coach? You may not have the experience to recognize when you got poor instruction or if the results you achieved were quality or just temporary patches to cover a hole in training (for the horse or you).
The trainer is getting you to go in long and low. This is an on the forehand exercise so that is why you feel tipped.
It sounds like the instructor is asking you to do this as it is what they have found is mentally calming for this horse at this point in time.
The reins still work the same way eg. you do not use the inside rein to bring a horse around on a circle or short end in canter.
That does not mean you will ride him like that always. You need to be able to slow him with your seat. As you learn that the instructor will have you sit back, raise your hands and ask for more collected work, without the horse running.
Until you can do that on him without pulling him around a circle or short end in canter, don’t even think of jumping him.
You’ve gotten such good comments here, I am only going to mention one thing from my own experience.
Whatever the reasons, “your” horse (the horse you are riding) is clearly so inconsistent about maintaining a forward travel, it is bobbling both of you back and forth. I’m guessing it’s hard to keep his attention on top of everything else, and he’s reacting to everything without much regard for the rider.
Your body can never, ever get ahead of his motion - and that’s hard. It’s all in how you sit and in your awareness. If he hesitates, you don’t tip forward. If he dodges a bit right or left, you don’t tip forward.
The others who ride better than I do, teach more and know more, may hate this, but as a fellow ammy, you have to adopt a slightly westernized seat to keep your balance on a horse that is always dropping back. Your shoulders have to stay so far back, always behind his center of motion, you’ll feel you are leaning back in a lounge chair (and everyone will say “oh you sit up so straight!” :lol:). Below your hips, you need a chair seat with your feet somewhat ahead of the center of balance, legs long and heels down. No matter what he does, if you maintain this position then it can’t put you forward - so long as you are always paying attention and are never flustered by his behavior. You have to think calm, and be calm.
If you ‘perch’ in an equitation-style position up over his center of gravity and maybe even his shoulders, I think it’s not going to be workable with this horse, he’ll always be putting you on a bad balance. And he knows that already.
Whatever dressage trainers tell you about their ideal seat, if you carefully watch successful grand prix riders on highly reactive/sensitive horses, you’ll see some rider feet held a bit forward and a smidge of chair-seat, while the horse moves so beautifully through the movements. :winkgrin:
As a very good trainer said to me about one particular horse, “You can ride this horse, but you’ll have to ride like a pro every instant.” Your horse sounds like that’s the ride he needs. Given what you describe OP, particularly since this not even your horse, I’m not sure I’d be interested in making that investment of my energy and time. Whatever I might prove to myself by sticking it out and getting the horse going better is likely to be undone by the next rider. That’s could be a major reason why this horse is like this - inconsistent riding and a sensitive horse.
Will be interested in what you decide to try and how it all works out. Good luck finding a great riding experience, here or elsewhere!
@Calvincrowe He MAY be downhill, I’d have to confirm to be certain. He’s an 11 year old Irish Sport Horse and this is English lessons, not Western.
@RedHorses This is not my first trainer although I’m not too fond of my last trainer so I err on the side of caution when it comes to trainers until I’ve had enough time to assess whether or not they’re teaching properly. I’ve been with this one for about 9 months now and I’ve had no issues thus far until I started riding this particular horse.
@SuzieQNutter So is it okay to feel unbalanced on an “on the forehand” exercise? He does mellow out quite a bit when I can manage to get him to drop his head low and the does ride become much smoother. Problem is, moments like that are fleeting. I definitely will not be jumping him until I am completely comfortable on the flat.
@OverandOnward You mention some interesting things. I have a bad tendency to lean forward in general when I ride (I blame my former motorcycling days) so I’ve put in a lot of work getting that tendency eliminated from my horseback riding and working on my seat has helped tremendously.
Then this horse comes around and it all goes out the window. As you eluded to, ideal seat depends upon the horse and it may change from one to another but my current seat confirmation on him just isn’t working and it’s causing all sorts of other problems in my seat.
I get what you’re saying regarding investing the time and energy into riding this horse. I suppose I first have to figure out if my trainer is giving me proper instruction on how to ride him (the consensus here is no). If she is, however, is it worth it to stick with him…
I really don’t mean to be blunt or offensive where your trainer is concerned, but I can assure you that your trainer’s instructions are misguided at best. There is no horse that will ever be helped by a rider taking the reins " knee width apart and down below your knees". That just isn’t an effective way to train any horse and no rider can be effective when riding in such a bizarre position.
Of course you are unbalanced in such a position, and the horse will be as well. I hope very much that you can find another horse to ride and hopefully someone else to instruct you.
You seem as if you enjoy riding and are happy to learn. :yes: Your instructor should have you riding a steady, well broke horse, so that you can learn to have an independent seat and effective position on the horse, then you will progress to your hands being independent as well.
All of this should happen before you ever ride a “hot” horse that needs re-training. If you have an independent seat and hands now, then you must realize that your instructor is telling you to ride out of balance and incorrectly.
If your instructor was giving you good advice about how to ride this horse I might feel a bit differently, they might be able to teach you how to ride a hot horse, however that is not the case. You are getting very poor advice.
I hope you will seek out better instruction on an appropriate horse. If your trainer has no other horse for you to ride I encourage you to move on and find another instructor. If you can share the general area in which you live there may be someone here that can recommend a better option for you.
Best of luck!
@skydy I appreciate the bluntness, no offense taken.
I’ve spent a lot of time working on my seat and while it’s definitely not perfect, I have rode hot and/or challenging horses in the past (a few with this trainer) and have further developed my seat through my experiences with them to the point where I feel fairly secure in the saddle.
I suspect, as you have eluded to and others have pointed out, my current issues with this horse stem not from my seat but from my upper body & hand placement.
I will request a new horse. I’m aware of at least a handful of trainers around my area so if need be, changing trainers isn’t a problem either.
I’m glad to hear it. Good luck!
If it were me, my decision process would be the other way around. Do I really want to work with this horse? If no, you can just tell the trainer, and the problem goes to someone else.
But if your first concern really is with the trainer, then you are right to consider the future of that relationship first. Honestly if you are asking the question, that’s a marker that it’s time to move on. You can consider it an exploration so it doesn’t feel so permanent right away.
Just from what you say here, I’d wonder if you might do better with this horse without the trainer! :winkgrin:
This is a catch 22. You cannot sit properly until he is going correctly. He cannot go correctly until you are sitting properly.
Pros are so strong that they can sit correctly when the horse is incorrect and they then help the horse to go correctly.
As long as you are not falling off this horse and not losing confidence riding him. Then riding him in a lesson is teaching you how to train a horse.
It is harder to retrain a horse than to train a horse. So you may be learning how to retrain this horse rather than jumping.
So do you want to be just a rider that can ride and jump trained horses or as your instructor has put you on this horse they think you are ready to start training a horse?
To help with feeling better in this position, if not doing so now, start a daily pilates routine.
If you are losing confidence with him, let your instructor know.
As I said him only going in long and low and not jumping is a temporary thing. You may be surprised at how quickly he changes.
My thoroughbred can get pretty tense, and what I’ve found to help are to get him trotting on a circle, and then start with changing my posting diagonal every few strides (this helps slow and rebalance), and then lots of transitions within the trot, shortening (perhaps with some shoulder-fore) and lengthening.
@OverandOnward My current trainer has helped me tremendously. She was the one who pointed out my need to work on my seat when I first came to her. I’ve had lousy trainers in the past and she was the first to put me on a longe line, the first to give me bareback lessons, she’s even put me on other challenging horses that started out lousy and we both ended up much better after months of work (sadly, they all got sold 
).
In no way is she perfect (no one is), I think I just took it seriously when most everyone in this thread said find another trainer. I’m not about to leave her, but I do question whether or not she is properly instructing me on this particular horse seeing as I’ve never quite experienced a ride like him. The simple solution as you have mentioned above is simply request another horse if it really is that big of an issue.
@SuzieQNutter Some great things to think about, thank you. Beyond jumping the nice horses, I aspire to become someone who is capable of successfully riding challenging/difficult horses. Not necessarily as a training career per se, but I just want to know I can safely and effectively ride whatever comes my way, even if it’s not an overnight process.
I haven’t fallen off of him and I wouldn’t say I’m losing confidence in riding him. I think my biggest issue is just the uncomfortable riding position and getting past that. I’ve seen pilates mentioned here quite a bit, I’ll definitely look into it.
So - what is your trainer trying to teach you by putting you on this horse?
Long and low does not come from the front - it is a result of the horse stretching through his topline as he comes from behind. How much engagement of the hind end is necessary depends on training, but just pulling his head down does not work.
The rushing, to me, signals anxiety - the horse isn’t at all sure what to expect from you. In my world, we’d start at the walk, working the bend and laterally until there is a nice stretch from hind end to front end. For hunters, at some point you want to be able to get the stretch in a two-point - perhaps this is what your trainer is trying for? You might need to let the trainer know that you’re not quite getting the feeling on this particular horse.
If he’s unbalanced in the corners, it sounds like he’s not really using himself. Moving correctly can be really hard work for horses who aren’t used to it, so you may be being taken advantage of. If he’s behind your leg, you may not be getting good gaits.
If your trainer can’t elucidate what they’re expecting you to learm from this horse, than yes, go ahead and request a different ride. But if you can learn how to make this one good, you’ll be ahead in the long run.
Best of luck!
Maybe you are getting your wish. :winkgrin: Personally there is not much that I find more uncomfortable than riding a horse that finds itself in new territory due to re-training, or initial training. No stride is the same as the stride before, and often there is wobbling, avoidance, misunderstandings and general silliness. There is a reason people (amateurs and some pros) pay other people (pro trainers) to deal with this misery. :eek: :yes:
It might help your riding comfort (eventually) if you spend some time on desensitization, both on the ground and in the saddle. I will guess that, under saddle, this horse has a lot of tiny starts and near-spooks going on. Because very probably he isn’t paying attention to the rider, because he has to stay on the lookout for scary things. That behavior is a major cause of abruptly dropping behind the leg while the horse disengages his body and his brain at the same time.
For myself, I find that working on personal fitness and core strength (away from the barn) helps build tolerance and resilience for riding a frequently silly, spooky, unbalanced horse. Also occasionally getting on other, more consistent horses, to remember what it is like. 
There should be occasional breakthroughs and rewards, though, leading to some satisfaction of gradual improvement. From time to time, stop and look back a few weeks, and hopefully things will be noticeably better now than they were then. If things aren’t changing, it’s time to re-examine how things are going. But hopefully you’ll be reporting back that things are coming together, day by day.
OP, is there any chance you could post video?
What you are describing is NOT LONG AND LOW.
You do not coerced a horse to put their head down to do long and low.
You are describing crappy training to be frank.
At 3:18 there is a lovely example of using long and low to decontract the horse between collected work. This horse is not on the forehand. This is also an example of how a rider maintains correct use of the aids to achieve it. The whole point of long and low to release tension and improve flow is predicated by a horse being correctly over the back, and seeking/accepting contact. Coercing the head down does not produce that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5XUq56P_I0
And to state that working long and low is on the forehand is just wrong. Yes, balance is a continuum, and compared to the balance of a horse doing a collected trot there is relatively more weight forward. However a good long and low at trot (or canter) is not parked on the front end and you will get a terrible score if you do it that way.
I understand wanting to become a better rider. But there are a lot of nuances. It would make a big difference to me to whether it is worth it and feasible in different scenarios:
Am I riding once a week? Multiple times a week? Riding other horses in addition to this horse?
Am I paying to ride this horse or riding it for free or being paid to ride this horse?
If I am a once a week lesson student that is paying to ride a horse I am not sure I want to have a frustrating ride every week. Riding only once a week on a more made horse is challenging enough already. Doing it on a horse that is tough and needing to be ridden in a position that is detrimental to good equitation and on the muscle memory that goes with that and I am paying for that? Hmm… Even twice a week is tough.
If I am paying for a lesson a week on a challenging horse and having the opportunity to ride in between for free/reduced rate to solidify that knowledge and training maybe.
I don’t see the point in paying a trainer so I can train her poorly trained over reactive horse.
@paw A great question that I have neglected to ask myself. I will ask her today and report back.
To be fair to the horse (his name is Zeus), I’ve done a very lousy job at providing leg input. I’ve gotten so caught up in what my upper body is/isn’t doing, I’ve let my seat fall apart so I’m no exactly communicating clear aids to him and as a result he is not using himself properly as you have staid.
@OverandOnward He is definitely a wonky horse and we still haven’t exactly formed a relationship. It’s still too soon to gauge any meaningful improvement but hopefully things will improve as time goes on. He is a little spooky, but I’ve been on much spookier horses. He’s definitely jittery and antsy but after a full lesson he mellows out completely. Thank you for taking the time to provide your thoughts on all of this
@Momateur I’m riding today. If it’s him I’ll be on, I’ll definitely get video and post it here.
@Arlomine I’ve seen my trainer ride him and the picture you provided looks exactly as to what I saw. While he’s not necessarily perfect with her, he’s definitely not the same horse when I’m on him. To be fair to my trainer, she’s not telling me to sustain my position indefinitely. She is telling me to get back to a neutral position when I’m able to get him to stretch down. My problem is that I can’t do that for a sustainable period of time and keep him together, probably because I’m lacking proper leg input.
@SonnysMom I ride multiple times a week and can ride other horses in addition to him.
I agree that it sounds like a bit of a mismatch, but it’s hard to tell anything without a video. (on that note, maybe ask your trainer if she could video you riding the horse? Sometimes it helps to see what you look like, and often it’s not as bad as it feels when you’re getting used to something new)
To play the devil’s advocate – is it possible that “hands below your knees” is an exaggeration? With some of my students who have a tendency to balance on their hands or carry their hands too high, I will tell them “hands on the saddle pad!” - even though you don’t necessarily want to ride around with your hands that low all the time, it helps the new riders who don’t have educated hands yet figure out how to carry their hands lower – sometimes an over-correction is helpful to break a habit or develop new muscle memory.
I’m thinking it could be the same situation with “tipping forward” – if you have a tendency to sit a bit in “the back seat” and behind the vertical, maybe she is trying to encourage you to close your hip angle and be more centered on the horse. Of course this is all pure conjecture but just something that came to mind when I saw people suggesting that you are receiving questionable advice from your trainer.
It does sound like the horse needs to learn that leg on doesn’t always mean “go”, and some exercises riding from your inside leg to outside rein on a circle with an opening rein might help him learn to find his balance laterally. With that said, if you are new to riding it shouldn’t be your job to school the horse, and I don’t think it would hurt to have a few rides on another horse and maybe come back to this one down the line.
I’ll get some video today if I ride him.
I’m fairly certain it is an exaggeration as she does have me return to a neutral position in those rare moments when he does respond. She in no way is indicating that I need to sustain that hand/body position indefinitely.
With him my seat is a disaster and I’m definitely not providing proper leg input which isn’t helping me or him. I’m going to focus on my seat next time I ride him and not let issues with my hands consume my attention.
I’m going to give your trainer the benefit of the doubt, since you can’t give everyone a full transcript of the instruction you recieved over the course of a 30-60 minute lesson.
It sounds like your trainer has put you on a more sensitive horse, which can teach you a lot. The loss of balance you are feeling could be because your horse is tense, possibly hollowing his back and lifting his head, which can cause you to lose your balance. As you are learning to ride this type of horse, your trainer might be telling you to do things in an exaggerated way, so it becomes obvious to you over time what the right responses are. No, putting your hands really wide below your knees isn’t technically correct, but it’s possible the trainer is saying this to give you a visual, and to encourage a better positional correction from you. What feels like “below your knees” to you, in reality might only be holding your hands half an inch lower than you usually do, and the trainer needs you to make a 1 inch change, for example.
It’s hard to change habits and create new muscle memory. If the horse doesn’t scare you, stick with it for awhile. If every lesson feels easy, you probably aren’t learning much, is my personal philosophy.
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