Riding woes - new horse

I think you should have a conversation with your trainer about what she’s trying to accomplish with telling you to put your hands low in this exaggerated position and you tell her what other problems it is creating for you. Perhaps you can come up with a different visual / different approach to get to the same thing.

One example I use a lot of this kind of communication problem is the usual “shoulders back” command that results in some riders having very stiff arms, stiff back, perhaps overly arched back. They are engaging so many muscles in their shoulders that the arm is no longer independent. You can also arrive at “shoulders back” by thinking “chest out” for some or “chest up” for others. This keeps the focus for the rider off of the shoulders so they don’t tense those muscles. Instead maybe they stretch up from the diaphragm, maybe also put their head back on right, and the result winds up being correcting a too forward or rounded posture.

If your problem is with your hands or elbows or if you are balancing on the rein or something, there could be a better way to address that than what she’s telling you now. But I think you also need to have a better idea of what she thinks the problem is and to understand how it is making you focus on negative things that make you nervous like how much you are unbalanced.

I’m not so quick to jump on the trainer as some because you say she doesn’t ride the horse like that and the horse goes well. If she was trying to pull his head down too then that might be a different story.

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Girlfriend. Run. You have just described a horse that has trouble walking, trotting & cantering. Riding a horse like this will mess with your mind and body. Riding is supposed to be fun!

That was a lovely video to watch but that is comparing apples with oranges. You can see that no matter what horse that rider sits on the horse would not pull her out of position and that is what I spoke about with strength.

The rider also knows how to go in long and low and so does the horse. The same with the photo shown that is an accomplished horse and rider.

As with strength from the rider the horse also needs strength and they do not know what you want. If it is on day 1 they cannot maintain it for a long time.

As the horse does not know, the rider has not done it before. So yes an exaggeration to widen the reins to the knees.

When it all works the horse should take the bit forward and down. That does not always happen perfectly on Day 1.

Also as I said it can he used to calm the horse. It is also used to warm up a horse, cool down a horse and to reward a horse between collected walk.

It was very controversial when it first came out by a famous Grand Prix rider.

AFAIK from this forum it was going to be brought in as a rule that the upper level riders had to cool down their horses after doing a test.

So how many of you start a horse in a lesson in long and low and end it in long and low?

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Hi again!

I’ve just reread the thread.

Good for you for wanting to learn how to ride difficult horses.

Let me tell you a tale. When I went to residential horse school (North Forks School of Equitation, Purcelville, Va. Kay Russell) many lessons were HARD. There was some grumbling from various students occasionally.

One day Kay told us that when we went out into the horse world to work, that we would NOT end up riding perfectly trained horses. People would not send us perfectly trained horses to train, and the horses we could afford to buy were not perfectly trained, if they were perfectly trained we could not afford them.

She diagnosed our worst problems. For a while she did not like how my lower leg was needlessly irritating the horse. Her solution? She put me up on the chronic run-away. It took me a while (MS attack), but I finally learned to relax my lower leg and one day he stopped, light on the bit, with no problems (unlike the usual "NO I don’t want to stop you b*tch). Sorry. Problem horse. He had a few other issues too.

For seat weakness she would put us up on this 17 hand or so part TWH who had one of the roughest slow trots in the world (he just wanted to WALK FAST, not slow trot.) Luckily for me my first horse had taught me how to sit the trot so I did not end up like some of her students, told to ride this horse outside of lessons at the sitting trot until they could sit his trot securely (without abusing his mouth, of course.)

I cried a bit on occasions. I despaired. And I could only afford three months of this.

You know what? I’ve run into problem horses since then. It may take me a while but I can get them to be civilized riding horses, at least under me or a better rider. Horses improve under me now, and if they do not respond I know how to think the problem through, search for solutions, and recognize a possible solution as valid.

I can see why you do not want to leave this teacher. She is teaching you what you want to learn.

Good job. You’ll get this eventually. It takes riding a lot of problem horses with different problems to get to where you want to go. This present problem horse? You may well run into an equivalent problem in the next few years, and you will know how to deal with it.

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Thanks everyone for the input! You’ve given me much to think about.

Didn’t get to ride him on Wednesday but I have lessons over the weekend so odds are at least one of them will be on him and I will procure video of my riding. Will also get some details on what specifically we’re trying to accomplish with this horse and what the purpose is of the techniques I am using. As some of you have suggested, it’s most likely an exaggerated movement that I’m doing because I’ve yet had success in doing it in the proper position, given that the rest of my body is still figuring it out as well. I’m sure a part of it is that I just need to relax.

Hi @Jackie Cochran I appreciate the story :slight_smile: Prior to this trainer, essentially all the horses I rode were fairly calm, even the younger ones. Some would spook here or there or get a little forward, but nothing big.

A few of the horses my current trainer has definitely need work and I never thought I’d be training horses. And while she didn’t put me on these horses right from the start, she’s slowly introduced me to them and I now see that having the ability to take a problem horse and make them into a competent/capable mount is something that fits into what I want to accomplish as a rider beyond showjumping. The last horse she had me ride took over 4 months of work and towards the end she turned out to be the best horse I have rode thus far (she trained me just as much as I trained her :lol:). Hopefully I can get this new horse into shape (myself as well clearly) but I find myself enjoying the tricky ones, even amidst the frustrations and discouragements.

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Every single time you ride a horse, you are training it. It may be for better or for worse, but it’s learning, as of course are you. I think you actually learn more in figuring out the tricky ones than you do if you get on the push button ready-made show horses. That’s what will make the difference between you becoming just a competent rider vs a real horseman. Of course, you want to avoid the unfixable or dangerous horses, but working with the horses that need some training will be invaluable as you move forward. There are a lot of upper level horses that have some quirks and/or holes in their training.

I’ll be interested to see what the explanation for the unorthodox position you’re riding in is. I think the only time I’ve ever had my hands below my knees on a horse was when I was ass over teakettle on the way to falling off. lol

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I “developed” this method for the riding school/& or cast off horses my riding teacher has put me on.

Most of these horses did not have a “good” relationship with the bit, and it showed up by how the horses took up contact and reacted to my well-timed rein aids (the results were worse with badly timed rein aids) in coordination with my well-timed leg aids. The mouth “faults” were varied, often going into inversion, turning the lower jaw into cast iron, head flinging, mouth gaping, etc., etc., etc…)

I would spread my hands, wide enough so that the horse could SEE my hands, and work on getting the horse to relax his neck and reach DOWN and OUT with the muzzle to establish/keep contact. I keep my fingers relaxed and somewhat loose, keeping contact at the walk I emphasize the forward motion of the horse’s mouth just a little bit, going back to normal light contact the rest of the stride.

A few years ago I read, in depth, Francis Dwyer’s “On Seats and Saddles, Bits and Bitting.” I was mainly interested in what he said about bits for the double bridle. In his discussion about bradoons he said that he did NOT like the double jointed snaffles, that these bits act “like a twitch” on the horse’s lower jaws.

For many years my favorite bits were variations of the Dr. Bristol snaffle. My riding teacher would get after me about spreading my hands so far apart (she wanted around 5-6" between them) and I would tell her that the HORSES had “told” me to keep my hands apart. When I rode in the Dr. Bristols the horses wanted not only the straight line from the rider’s elbow to the bit from the side, but also looking down at my hands. The closer my hands came together the more restive the horses became, horses who cheerfully extended into contact would all of a sudden start sucking back and go all the way to flinging their heads around emphatically depending on how pissed off my “properly” distanced hands made them. When I widened my hands so that, looking down at my arm, the line from my elbow to the bit rings was straight NOT coming in to the “proper” distance apart, the horses would relax and start reaching out and keeping contact with a relaxed mouth, and go back to being a delightful ride.

If you have contact problems, which often show up as behind the vertical, try a single jointed snaffle. Then learn how to lighten your contact, making sure to follow the motions of the horses’ heads. You might be pleasantly surprised about your results and you can stop spending hundreds of dollars on increasingly complicated mouthpieces trying to find that magic double-jointed snaffle that the horse will consent to keeping good contact when you keep contact and use your rein aids.

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After a week with other horses I finally got to ride Zeus today and got some video for you all.

A few notes:

-My hands aren’t nearly as low and I originally made them out to be. I think my trainer had me exaggerate that for the first lesson or so because with him I have a tendency to balance on my reigns and my hands and elbows shoot upwards when I do so. That isn’t exactly helping him stretch his head long and low. Riding him now my hands are low, but definitely above my knees. I’m still tipped forward but I believe that’s an issue unrelated to my hands.

-He has lameness and arthritis in his forelegs and when he isn’t ridden with his head low, he doesn’t use his shoulders properly which causes him to strike the ground with his forelegs incorrectly, further exacerbating the lameness. That is what I understood of the complex anatomical explanation my trainer gave me so if that doesn’t sound right, I’m sure I botched it.

-I’ve tried 3 different saddle and stirrup combinations with him and all leave me with some sort of knee and/or ankle pain. It’s a struggle just getting comfortable on him, I don’t know why.

-Any and all issues I’m having with him apparently only happen to me so I’m accepting responsibility for what’s going on, just have to figure out how to solve it.

-What I see when I watch the videos is most certainly not what I’m feeling when I ride him. Regardless, it doesn’t look or feel all that great :no:

-His canter leaves me putting almost all my weight in my right stirrup. I tend to favor my right leg in most physical activities (strength and flexibility is unequal in my legs) but it doesn’t leave me imbalanced on other horses (need to work on it still). But with him it comes out really bad and cantering feels like I’m going to fly off sideways at any moment.

The first two videos are trot and the last is canter. Apparently Trot 2 is better than Trot 1. I only got the canter to the right direction but I wish I got the other direction as the canter going left is the one that I have more issues with.

Trot 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-da7LShjAE0

Trot 2: ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2rZuY06-zU

Canter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mor-aHB7HPA

Can you see how Trot 2 is markedly better than Trot 1? It is more cadenced and less rushed. If you can’t see the difference you should sit in on some lessons with other riders on Zeus or watch the trainer ride him.

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@Scribbler I can definitely SEE it when I watch it but I didn’t necessarily feel that much better whilst riding him. Perhaps a little bit better but nothing drastic. If I remember correctly, I used my seat much more in Trot 2, I tried to sit back and deeper with a generous dose of knee squeeze but I did feel tense the entire time.

Does this horse have a bigger gait than you are used to? Is he a warmblood? What kinds of horses do you usually ride?

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Trot 2 is better than trot 1 as he is not running.

As your instructor said this is more in your seat/body than the reins.

Has she told you to half halt or to do transitions within the gait? I think this would help you to learn to use your body and aids and can be done on the other horses not just him.

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I think your trainer is trying to get you to use your hands independently here. You can see in the first video your hands and arm below the elbow are moving with your posting up and down. Your hands really should stay more still and your elbow should open and close as you post. Your hands should be relatively still. Your hands are moving quite a bit in the first video and you can see him raising and lowering his head because your hands and therefore the reins are moving. You’re still doing it in the 2nd video, but not as much, and your hands are lower in general and you can see the difference in the horse.

Basically your hand needs to follow his mouth, not your body.You can also see that you are tipped slightly forward and that seat and body position is making him want to speed up. Your lower leg looks pretty good, but the upper body is folding forward as you post. Your canter looks much better, stiller with the hands, but your upper body looks like you’re rounded in the back. Think about arching your back slightly, pull your shoulder blades back and lift your chest. You want your hips and elbow angles to open and close so that legs and hands stay still, rather than tilting forward and pumping the upper body to follow the motion. This is something I think every rider struggles with when they’re learning, It just takes time to develop independent legs, seat, body, and hands.

Have you ever just grabbed some mane at the withers and rode a few strides like that so your hand can’t move? I know it sounds like simple beginner stuff, but it works. If you force your hands to stay still, you can then feel what your elbows should be doing as you post.

If I remember correctly, you haven’t been riding very long, right? So it’s not surprising that you’re struggling with balance and creating independent aids considering that you don’t have the years of muscle memory to go on at this point. These things just take practice, patience, and time. I think this horse will force you to develop good soft following hands.

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I’m just going to say it: I think you’re overhorsed here. I admire that you want to become a better rider. That’s good! But in the intermediate stages of riding, a challenging horse isn’t necessarily the way to improve. If you’re uncomfortable on him, just say so to your trainer. Improve your skills on something easier (for now).

IMO, developing a good seat and independent aids can really only happen when you are relaxed. Tension in your body will make physical learning all but impossible. So if you’re on a horse that makes you tense…it’s just not a good recipe.

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Not necessarily specific to this horse, but I find it can be hard for me to implement small changes in position without having a sense for what the overall feel should be. I really like the book Centered Riding by Sally Swift - she focuses on imagery to help your body come into correct alignment. It’s applicable to all levels of riders. This may help with feeling and being more balanced, which is a necessary step before you can really use your hands independently.

Looking at the videos, I agree with the above that trot 2 is better than trot 1. In the first video, it looks like you are much more out of balance, either tipping forward or getting left behind the motion which is causing your lower leg to come forward, and for you to balance on the horse’s mouth. He then rushes forward. It will help to develop a more secure leg so you can use your hands independently, and this will also allow you to use half halts as mentioned above.

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Yes, OP when you post the trot your hands are moving up and down with your torso. Ideally your hands should not move and your elbows should flex slightly as needed so your hands stay steady and only your torso moves. Obviously at the walk and canter your hands do move to follow the head.

It’s very hard to really influence the trot positively until your hands are independent from your seat. Hooking your fingers in a piece of mane might help you get the muscle memory.

I don’t see the horse as too much overall but I bet he has a big trot made a little rougher by his habit of falling on the forehand and rushing.

Your coach is able to guide you to a better quality trot. Her language is very different from my dressage coach but they are after similar goals in stretching over the topline and getting a more cadenced trot. I find throwing in some circles will also help.

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I am not an expert at all but this horse reminds me a lot of one that my trainer made me ride back in the day and my rides on him looked a lot like this - rush rush rushing!

I know this is H/J forum but I think you would benefit a lot from riding this horse in a dressage saddle if you have access to one- it looks to me like you’re tipping forward a lot which is leading to a lot of the rushing, and saddle can play a huge role. If you could just find your seat and sit up dramatically to the point where it feels like you’re leaning wayyy too far back, I think your hands would find their comfortable spot on their own.

had this exact same problem after growing up in the H/J world and only really knowing how to perch, and it took some scary rushing horses for me to learn how to sit my butt down in the saddle and ride the middle of the horse. However after you develop your seat, your hands really do follow much better. Sometimes it helps to focus on a different facet of one problem to fix another. :slight_smile:

Edited to add I found the old video of me riding this horse and wanted to show you because it seriously reminds me so much of the ride you’re having here. I was in my trainer’s Butet jump saddle which was WAY too big for me and like I physically couldn’t sit up, and would’ve benefitted a lot from a different saddle! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePekAtd6mzE

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@Scribbler He has very big gaits with lots of BOUNCE. He’s an Irish Sporthorse if I remember correctly. My trainer has a mix of thoroughbreds and warmbloods and a few other breeds. The thoroughbreds I rode were all pretty hot horses but ultimately proved to be manageable after a while and very fun to ride and jump. There is a warmblood I ride often and he redefines the meaning of lazy, completely opposite this guy. I definitely agree with you on my hands/arms, major work needs to be done there.

@SuzieQNutter I have transitioned between gaits with him but not as an exercise. Will try this next time I ride him.

@Jenerationx Some good observations. My hands/arms are most definitely flopping around whilst I ride him and this is exacerbated by the fact that I’m balancing on my reigns every so often. Stillness of hands is something I have had to work on quite a bit and it ranges from mild to really bad, depending upon the horse I ride. That said, it shouldn’t matter which horse I ride, that is something that should be independent of the horse and the rest of my body as you have eluded to. And he is a horse that likes very little hand input so I’m only making things worse for myself (and him) by not keeping them quiet.

With regards to me tipping forward. I originally blamed it on the awkward lowness of my hands but now that my hands aren’t as far down, that’s not a legit excuse :no:. I think with him, as @ti89 described, I am getting left behind the motion which causes my legs tend to slide forward so leaning forward is me attempting to compensate for my lack of balance. The result is bad body position/posture in either direction however.

I haven’t grabbed mane with him but my next lesson(s) on him is going to be a longe lesson to work on my seat so I’ll give that a try! I’ve been riding for 4.5 years, been with this trainer for about 1 year now. Unfortunately my previous trainers weren’t all that great so I’ve spent most of my time with this trainer getting rid of bad habits/technique and working on fundamentals. I’m a better rider from a year ago, but still much work to be done.

@katherineyyyy I’m open to trying a dressage saddle. I’ve been doing only flat work with him anyways, no jumping.

I don’t feel he is too much horse. While I’m unbalanced and my body feels wonky and he is quite forward, I don’t feel unsafe on him. If he spooks at something, it’s mild at worst and he doesn’t mindlessly take off. Ultimately he listens to my aids, it’s just uncomfortable and technically not the most proper riding. I’ve had success sticking with trouble horses, and they have taught me the most, although it takes time. If I can just figure out my body, I should be able to procure a better ride on him. Might be easier said than done though :lol:

@SuzieQNutter I have transitioned between gaits with him but not as an exercise. Will try this next time I ride him.

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I said transitions within the gait not transitions between the gaits. There are 4 trots, collected trot, working trot, medium trot and extended trot. Then of course piaffe and passage.

Of course transitions, transitions, transitions so between the gaits is good to do as well

As you get more advanced you ask for the trot you want before your trot. At the moment you are asking for trot and then trying to change the trot to what you want afterwards.

Your hands going up and down is a basic fault. On the lunge have 2 plastic coffee cups 3/4 full of water and don’t spill them.

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Is the trainer asking you to essentially see saw the reins to get his head down? That is not helping your hand problem. Since I work on equitation with people in jump tack, I’ll offer my 2 cents that I think your trainer is trying to get at.

By trying to stay somewhat off of him as he rushes, you are actually being too active with your seat and posting too fast. I think your tack is fine but I would lower your stirrups some so you can sink some weight down into your thigh more. You are kind of perching on your knee and the stirrup, which is pushing your butt way far back. This is driving the horse and causing you to compensate by tipping the shoulder forward. This also cues the horse to go a bit faster in the posting because you are not balanced. Longe lessons practicing some without stirrups at the sitting trot is a great idea. Learn to have that sinking down and around the horse feeling. You can still keep your calf and heels away from him but you are not pinching in the tack. It’s right in the middle of your thigh where you find your stability. If you were in dressage tack, your leg would drape differently, and I think you could improve your position in this tack that will help you on other horses.

Second, for your hands, I don’t like wagging his head back and forth to get low. That is not correct and is front to back riding. The thing that is correct is softening when he stops bracing, but this shouldn’t be “leaving him alone” versus see sawing. It also isn’t helping you not have busy braced hands when you are trying to having him more in the rein. Once you have better stability through your change in leg position that will take the hunch out of your back, your arms will be able to work more independently. If this horse physically shouldn’t ever get inverted, then maybe he needs to go in a neck stretcher or something in your lessons while you work on the basics of your arms and hands. So, while you aren’t worried about how high his head is, you can practice what I think your trainer is trying to get you to practice and you can do that by finding a spot on the saddle pad or withers to push your knuckles slightly as you post. This is not where your hands should wind up, but push a little into the withers and feel your elbows bend and unbend as you post. Relax into this movement, then put your hands in a more normal position and continue bending and unbending your elbows. If you get braced or bouncy again, back to the withers with your knuckles for a few more strides.

Once you have more fluidity in your arms and are more relaxed and upright with your body, then you are ready to feel the horse become more connected and improve the frame.

Starting with longe lessons, work without stirrups and holding the pommel. Then one hand on your hip, Then the other. Then out to the side. Then over your head. Graduate to picking up your stirrups and posting with hands on hips or maybe for you just arms relaxed at your sides. Then add reins and post with hands on the withers to loosen the arm.

Until you have this feeling you can’t really work on any kind of contact. Long and low is contact just in a longer and lower frame. The energy still has to come from the hind leg over the back and seeking the bit. He runs through your outside rein a bit so even when you do get him softer, he’s not really connected most of the time. But I think teaching you that feel is asking quite a lot from you because you are not currently set up for success there because of how your position is on this horse and because you know it doesn’t feel good or comfortable or relaxed, you are just creating more tension trying to do all the things.

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