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Riding woes - new horse

Hunter/Jumper
#61

A lunge line lesson is a great idea, that will allow you to work on yourself rather than worrying about him all the time and creating more tension.

@IPEsq has great suggestions for working on equitation. Don’t feel bad going back to basics, we’ve all been there on some horse or another where we’ve gotten into some habit that’s highlighted by an unbalanced or sensitive horse. You can get away with a lot on some horses, this isn’t one of them. lol He’s going to react to and highlight all of your faults, and that’ll give you the opportunity to get really solid in your equitation, which will help when you get on another horse.

Whether you grab mane or pommel, or plant your knuckles on withers or pommel, or put a neck strap on him so you can’t move those hands… will help you figure out what it’s supposed to feel like. Yeah, it’s kind of a beginner exercise, but only because it’s so effective and easy, no question if you’re doing it right if your hands are still on the mane, pommel, or withers.

1 Like
#62

On a quieter horse that is more comfortable, you can practice some of the same exercises without a longe line, just put the reins in one hand to put the other one on your hip or whatever. Might be good for you to warm up every day on one of the other horses walking without stirrups and getting the feeling of the weight into your leg and your upper body relaxed but balanced.

Shoot, with COVID-19 restrictions, I’m so overdue for bodywork on myself I have to do a lot of these kinds of things myself to work the kinks out in my lower back and hips. And I told my instructor to just bear with me and keep reminding me when my right shoulder tries to hike up to my ear and all the other weird contortions happen.

2 Likes
#63

Hi, me again.

First things first, I would tell you to lengthen your stirrup leathers a hole or two.

About your knees, when you tighten them be sure to relax them again, otherwise you will be pivoting on your knee and feeling like you are falling forward all the time. As with any aid it is apply the aid, release the aid, use the aid again at the proper part of the horse’s stride, release the aid, etc., etc., etc…

My riding teacher has been getting after me about my lower legs for years (I am pretty sure my lower legs were worse than yours, by the way.) Then recently I reread one of my old horse books, “Riding and Schooling Horses” by Harry D. Chamberlin. On page 31, #3 Knees; he writes “Knee joints…must not be entirely limp, or lower legs slip to the rear, and heels come up.”

So I decided the only muscle connected to my knees that I should have some tension in all the time was the muscle down the front of my thigh to my knee-cap–the rectus femoris (I think.) Once I started with keeping some tension in this muscle my lower leg problems disappeared. Instead of getting after me multiple times each ride about my right lower leg and how weak and unsteady both lower legs looked to her, now she praises me every ride for my strong and stable lower legs.

Keeping some tension in this particular thigh muscle has done wonders for my feelings of security in the saddle. I no longer feel like I am falling forward all the time, my upper body feels much more stable, and my riding teacher’s complaints about my position have turned to praise, at least a lot of the time!

I know this is just one more thing among the three trillion things one must remember to ride well, but I have improved by just having some tension in this thigh muscle. This is the ONLY thigh muscle I keep tense all the time, all the others I momentarily make tense only when I need them, then I relax them.

Along with keeping my face vertical and pushing out with my diaphragm this has given me the most praise from my riding teacher. My vertical face keeps me feeling in balance, pushing out with my diaphragm helps me keep my back straight and my shoulders back, and keeping the rectus femoris muscle tensed keeps my lower legs in the correct position and stable.

1 Like
#64

It definitely doesn’t look as bad as what you were describing in your initial post!

From what I can tell from the video, it looks like maybe you are just compensating for a lack of stability in your seat and core which is making it hard to carry your hands softly without tension.

I don’t think it would hurt to have a few more lessons on a quieter horse where you can focus on your position - think of drawing your head up and bringing your shoulders back so you can engage your spine and core. Sometimes I tell my students to imagine they are wearing a construction vest with an “X” across the back and to think of keeping the “X” straight up and down. Then you can post on a 45ish degree angle hinging from your hips and it becomes more of an active, engaged movement rather than just trying to keep up with the motion of the horse. It might seem rudimentary but it could help to count while you’re posting to help maintain a more consistent rhythm.

I second the recommendation of Sally Swift’s “Centered Riding” - you might find the visuals helpful as well.

I think overall it’s probably one of those things where it just takes time and experience in the saddle to develop a feel for riding and develop independent seat and hands.

3 Likes
#65

I agree! It doesn’t look that bad at all.Being slightly out of balance always feels a lot worse than it is.

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#66

So I’m going to be brutal without intending to be unkind, even if it may come across that way.

Totally agree with the poster who remarked that you are way over-horsed, here. You aren’t riding this horse well at all, and the horse is upset about it. This looks like one of those horses that will reward a rider who gets it right, but who has no leeway for one that does not. The rider learns, but learns the hard way. It is actually rather generous of the trainer to allow you to keep trying with this horse. I’m guessing that she’s hoping that you’ll start to understand what works and what does not. But the penny hasn’t dropped yet.

It’s possible that the instructor is too far over your head as well, and that you need someone who can communicate in a way the you’ll understand better. This instructor is trying, and you are trying, but it looked to me like neither of you is understanding the other.

I salute you for hanging in there and trying, because you are clearly being challenged. I think this instructor believes that you can learn this, and that’s why she’s hanging in as well, even though you have a long way to go.

However, from her remarks I think everything she is saying is going right over your head. I don’t know if you have an earpiece to hear her during your ride, but regardless if you hear it then, or later, you aren’t making much adjustment to align with her coaching. I don’t think she’s using a riding language that you know very well, frankly.

What I see is that everything about your seat and riding position is sending this horse into orbit. He actually seems to be making some effort to restrain himself and not just bolt, and that’s probably why the trainer is allowing you to keep trying.

I realize that this is the h/j forum and perhaps your position is an h/j position. But it is all wrong for this horse. And it would be wrong for most horses that have been trained and wired the way this one seems to be, more of a high-powered dressage type. Your body is in a C, your shoulders are way far too far forward, and your elbows are often locked. Your hands are bouncing (no wonder she is trying to get you to use the horse’s shoulders as a reference point to help keep them still). Your legs are stiff and not flowing with the horse. This is all basically the opposite of what the instructor is trying to get you to do, of what it looks like this horse would respond to.

I admire your grit for hanging in there, even if I think a lot has to change on your part. I can totally see that there must be some moments where the horse makes you feel that he’s about to do something radical. But somehow the two of you make it over that instant.

I believe that you are correct that it is you who needs to change, not the horse that needs to be re-trained.

Just IMO, but to ride this horse, you basically need a complete overhaul of your riding position. I’m going to leave that up to your instructor. With the caveat that you and the instructor have got to get on the same page. She has to communicate in a way that you can understand (she’s more general and not very specific), and you have to learn more about what she is trying to say to you. Those two things seem to both be missing in the videos. I think you need to tell her the conclusion that you have reached here, that you are accepting that this change is on you, not the horse, and that you want to better understand what you need to do, and you need her help to do that with specific pointers.

This is a moment in anyone’s riding career when they decide what they want to do with their riding. If completely changing all you know so that you can ride a different way is something you don’t want to do, and don’t need to do if you been satisfied previously, then it’s best to move on to another horse better suited to what you enjoy. But if you are interested in diversifying your skills and give something new a try, learn what this instructor is trying to communicate (even if it would be best to learn it from someone else) and hang in there. I don’t think it will be quick, but who knows, maybe it will click and you’ll see results fairly soon. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#67

I don’t feel he is too much horse. While I’m unbalanced and my body feels wonky and he is quite forward, I don’t feel unsafe on him. If he spooks at something, it’s mild at worst and he doesn’t mindlessly take off. Ultimately he listens to my aids, it’s just uncomfortable and technically not the most proper riding.

Being “overhorsed” does not always mean you’re afraid or unsafe. It means that your current skills do not align with what the horse needs for success. Go develop your skills well on a simpler horse. Then you’ll have the toolkit you need to ride this type.

7 Likes
#68

@IPEsq Some great info you have provided me, thank you! You are correct in your description as to what is happening between me and the horse and what sort of messages my legs and hands are giving him, which are, at the moment, not very good messages.

I’ve had a couple of lessons focusing on holding reigns in one hand at the different gaits and it did help for the remainder of the lesson (different horse). I definitely don’t practice that enough though but I do recall my hands aren’t nearly as “noisy” when I just have the reigns in one hand. After my Sunday lesson during the cool down walk I did drop my stirrups and noticed how much I sank into the saddle which only confirms that I’m bracing quite a bit when I ride him. I’m going to warm up and/or cool down like this more often as you suggested and will be trying the exercises you suggested whilst on the longe line.

@Jenerationx I’m all for going back to basics, especially since mine were never properly established in the first place :frowning: He is definitely emphasizing everything I need to work on.

@Jackie Cochran I had knee issues until I did longe lessons with this trainer nearly a year ago (too much knee contact which was causing all sorts of problem). I’m pretty tense when I ride this horse, I’m sure I’m reverting back to my knee issues in some way.

@rideoff My original post was based off of my rides on him from a few weeks ago. Perhaps there has been some improvement since then but it certainly doesn’t feel nearly as good as it looks haha! I’ve picked up the book Centered Riding now that several people have suggested it. I’m definitely anything but centered on this horse.

@OverandOnward I appreciate the honesty and in no way did I take it brutally. I’m connected to my trainer via earpiece/microphone so I am hearing what she is saying. Conceptually I understand what she and you all are telling me, or at least it all makes sense. But I’m struggling to apply it physically. It helps, as you have suggested, learning more about the communication that is being given to me, whether from her or on here and this thread has been very helpful in identifying whats going on with my body and why and how this horse functions.

The last horse I struggled on, we switched to longe lessons and that helped tremendously. The end result was a great experience after a few months of work. So we’re going to try longe lessons with this guy and go from there and then reassess the situation. She’s seen me through a few challenging horses, but this guy is definitely something unique.

I’m all for sticking with this horse and learning how to properly ride him. I do realize that it involves a different way of riding and will most likely take time, but I believe he’s also bringing out weaknesses in my riding that need to be addressed, especially if I aspire to higher levels of riding and competing. I have other horses I can ride should I need to take a pause from riding him and/or work on my jumping.

2 Likes
#69

Hi OP,

There are many different ways one can use their knees riding a horse, and many of them can end up weakening the whole position.

This is the whole quote from Chamberlin’s book in the knee section.

"3. Knees: inside of the knee bones against saddle skirts;
kept as low as possible, with stirrups straps vertical;
not allowed to turn too far outward leaving air space between them and the saddle;
normally do not grip tightly,–just sufficiently to keep the whole thigh softly against the saddle skirts.

                   Knee joints almost completely relaxed, except when purposefully standing in stirrups;
                   knees increase grip when necessary to keep seat from being displaced forward or sideways from any
                        cause.
                   must not be entirely limp, or lower legs slip to rear, and heels come up.

I found it necessary to mentally map out some of the muscles affecting my knees. Gripping with my knees ends up with my lower legs drifting back, weakening my position and pitching me forward. The muscles that move the knees to the outside obviously did not do much for my security in the saddle. The muscle on the top of my thigh that ends up in the tendon to my kneecap is the one I tense up. I am very weak physically, I cannot tense this muscle up enough to start irritating my knees. It is this minimal tension I am using to strengthen and stabilize my lower leg. I do not make any other of the knee muscles tense, except for the mostly frictional grip of my thighs against the saddle bringing in the knees somewhat.

As for riding horses that are too much for you. I will tell you my deepest, darkest riding secret, every time I get up on a new horse that horse is “too much for me”. My seat is so weak, my coordination is so bad, and my lack of muscle strength and endurance is so bad, that I inevitably start shifting somewhat in the saddle, irritating the horse. I have found things that help this (Rider Grips, stability leathers, and silicon full seat breeches/tights) but I have to convince each horse that yes, I do know how to ride.

When I finally adapt to the new horse’s build and way of going and I can apply what I know, and both me and the horse improve greatly. Over time this all leads to a horse who keeps calm and relaxed, and who obeys my hand, lower leg and thigh aids readily (not always perfectly, though.)

This horse, Zeus (?) will take a good secure seat, independent aids, and decent contact to move like you want him too. It does take time, but when you get there you will be A MUCH BETTER RIDER who can ride a spirited, sensitive horse with finesse, and that will result in rides that both you and the horse enjoy. When you get a good ride from this horse, later horses will be much easier to ride because this horse is showing up your weaknesses and giving you a good reason to correct them.

You are on your way!

I admire your dedication and your determination to LEARN TO RIDE! Keep up the good work.

1 Like
#70

OP, I hope you do get the hang of riding this horse, and someday look back on these difficulties as some of the most important riding experiences of your life. It can work like that, sometimes.

From what the instructor is saying, I think she does very much know what works to ride this horse. But as said before, she is not being specific enough for you. She’s talking about forward and through, not about Sit Up with your shoulders and spine and Sit Down with your butt. Sit! Don’t perch, as you are doing in the videos. Classic shoulders square and back, spine straight, butt down. Like a soldier on parade, compared with your current modern ballet position - as it were, not saying to be rigid like a soldier at attention.

When you do this, you’ll have to completely relax your legs and knees to keep the horse from over-reacting to your butt in the saddle. Don’t pinch with the thighs, let the knees float, while heels are down. If you pinch this horse with your upper legs, you are likely to find out what it means to have a “hot” seat on a very strong horse. :winkgrin: If you can maintain a proper upper body position while totally relaxed, especially in all of your joints, including knees, shoulders, elbows, hands, likely the horse will become like a different, much happier ride for you.

You need an instructor who is a very basic old-school shoulders-back heels-down type. The lady you have now is for well down the road, after you get the basics established. Her verbiage is well beyond ‘basic’.

Somehow you’ve found yourself in Professor McGonagall’s 5th year transfiguration class, when you need Professor Sprout’s first year class, for the time being. :smiley: However, you do seem to have enough of an intuitive feel and general experience that you won’t need 5 years to get up to Prof. McGonagall and transfiguration. :yes: But you need a LOT of time in a proper position in order to truly advance on this horse. Good luck! :slight_smile:

4 Likes
#71

“According to my trainer, he has anatomical issues (oddly shaped forelimbs), so to get him to cooperate at the walk and trot you must get him to drop his head low. This involves having my hands knee-width apart and down below my knees. This is pretty uncomfortable to me as it leaves me slightly tilted forward the entire time. It also requires constant application of tension as the second I ease up on the reigns, he wants to break into the canter. Any slight leg movement also causes him to pick up speed.”

Really?

This sounds like the world’s most yahoo program.

Please use your eyeballs to see the several red flags in this paragraph alone and take your money somewhere else.

#72

The missing piece of the puzzle is that you aren’t bringing the connection onto your lower back. It stops at your hands.

Your instructor is going on and on about your “thigh” (which should be quite stable on a horse like this) but your back is a loose, slouchy, disengaged “C”. All of your pace control is leaving through that gap.

Connect your reins to your lower back and initiate your rein aids from there. When you relax your hands, keep your lower back engaged. The half halts and “whoaing aids” are there to put the horse onto your lower back, and then your BACK sets the pace, not your hands.

That is how you have real pace control without getting handsy.
You must ride from your lower back.

Also, slow your post down. Post YOUR speed, not his.
(Again, that involves engaging the core and back.)

4 Likes
#73

This. This is ALL I have been doing with my import for the last year. At the walk and the trot. When we got her, she’d walk off from the mounting block, I couldn’t trot without her running off (at the trot) on her forehand. Sounds like what you’re dealing with.

it’s taken a lot of patience, but I can finally hand gallop and come back to a collected canter within a matter of 2 ish strides. I can now comfortably W/T/C without stirrups.

I recently read an article by Stefan Peters (I do showjumping, but obviously our fundamentals lie within dressage). If I can find the article I will post it. Basically his new top mount is a freight train. He said he will sometimes back up 15 steps. Personally, my horse didn’t respect me and thought she knew it all. I love using this. I make sure it’s never a fight and I don’t push her past where I know she will get upset (backing up). Everything we do with horses must be with tact!

hope that helps. And knowing when it give!! I know I make my horse mad sometimes because I’m a second too late on the give. That’s key with sensitive ones!

3 Likes
#74

Everyone is right.

In real life I would put hands on your body with my fingers cupping your sides and my thumbs at you spine.

You are sitting like this with your seat bones doing this and I dig my thumbs in your back, so as you hollow your back. That is your seat bones.

You need to sit like this. I remove my thumbs and cup your sides and bring your back to me. This rounds your back instead of hollowing it.

This is why the same horse will look different for different riders moving off from the mounting block. It is the way you sit on a horse.

This does not mean you do not sit in the saddle. As said before you are perching or in other words you do not have your weight in the saddle, which has nothing to do with how much you weigh.

While perching without you weight in the saddle, if he shies he will leave you behind. Sitting correctly with you weight in the saddle, if he shies you will go with him.

As others have said lunge lessons without stirrups on a quiet horse, so as you can do exercises and not worry about upsetting him, will be very beneficial. This will also let you know your stirrup length.

3 Likes
#75

OP I think you’ve gotten a lot of good feedback. One thing I recommend is that if you don’t understand what your trainer is telling you and why, you need to let her know that. She should be able to explain it in a different manner. I like this example, we all know heels down. I ran into a rider who just wasn’t getting (executing heels down), but they thought they were. I told them, “toes up” and got the weight in the heel that I was looking for. Same result, just a different message.

You are not doing yourself or the horse any favors if you’re tense during your ride. When I get nervous on a horse I’m guilty of holding my breath. If I feel like my horse is getting wound up, I force myself to take slow long breathes. This makes your body to relax a bit, which the horse will feel.

To keep hands quiet at the trot I mentally tell myself, “Push” every time I rise. That’s my queue to push my hands down, which in reality is really just opening my elbow. The other mantra that runs through my head while I ride is, “Sit up, sit tall”. I’m fairly visual, so I think of a string being pulled from the top of my head. To keep my shoulders back/chest up I think about a flashlight in my belly button. It needs to point straight ahead.

Keep in mind that this is stuff that I still tell myself after riding for years, so don’t beat yourself up. Change happens over time. Recording your rides is an invaluable tool, so keep doing that if you can.

5 Likes
#76

I can’t thank you all enough for the amazing information and advice. You’ve given me many things to work on and keep in mind whilst riding this and any other horse.

I’m riding him this weekend, been spending time on another horse who is equally challenging yet the exact opposite of this one (a topic for another thread :uhoh:).

I legit printed this whole thread and have been reading it over and highlighting all the main points.

4 Likes
#77

You are welcome Centaursam.

Each new horse is a whole boatload of new challenges, and what works perfectly for one horse can really irritate the next horse, who “says” “no, no, no, a thousand times no!”

Even after 50 years of riding each new horse points out stuff I do wrong, at least it is wrong for that particular horse. I never stop learning from these wonderful animals.

2 Likes
#78

Your videos look like I feel on days my horse is really up. When she’s feeling wild, she goes inverted and hollow, and bounces me all over the place. My trainer says I look like a cork on top of a wave. But instead of trotting the same big lap for 2 minutes straight expecting something to change, we focus on getting fewer, but better quality, steps. So working on a circle doing transitions every few strides. Doing lateral work, figure 8’s, etc to get the horse connected and balanced. It’s physically very hard to maintain a proper position for that long on a horse that bouncy and unbalanced without collapsing your lower back and relying on the reins for balance. If you can get an active, connected walk on a circle, then ask for a trot or canter for a few strides, then back to the walk, you can eventually build from there.

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#79

I second lynne. Very good explanation!

1 Like

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