Rob Gage

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Denali6298

Right? And some of them are lawyers. :eek:

@Virginia Horse Mom who is putting up a straw man argument?

Well, I’ve been accused of saying that all male students who ever rode with Jimmy Williams at any point should be investigated by SafeSport.

never said that.

but the same person who made that initial accusation now just wants to be argumentative, quote other parts of my post, continue to allege that I am somehow not taking responsibility for my own words, make references to Sarah Huckabee Sanders and compare me ypbher… and on and on.

Its really bizarre, frankly.

@Peggy piped up to acknowledge that a different comment of mine was referring to HH. You replied to her… and frankly I don’t know what to make of your reply. Maybe you didn’t understand Peggy’s comment was in response to my earlier comment, and you just got mixed up about who said what in the course of this thread.

I really don’t understand what is going on in terms of how this has devolved into some attacking other posters on this thread.

I can relate to people who have strong emotions and responses about those folks who continue to defend people like Jimmy Williams, and want to do away with Safe Sport altogether. But I also understand lawyers who have concerns about due process and how this system of accusation, investigations, and banning folks from organized sports which are tied to their livelihoods is not without flaws.

[IPEsq]

@caffeinated

These feelings are perfectly valid and understandable.

I’ll just say that we do not know all the things in the investigation. People have been saying it’s about an old incident that was consensual - it may be, but it also may not be, and from SS it seems there were multiple reports involved. And just because people were interviewed or asked about that old case does mean there wasn’t more to it. Investigators generally do not share everything they know or suspect with every witness. I think it’s dangerous to assume all those comments are the whole story.

I do hope they don’t make the mistake they made with the figure skater, and stop the investigation because it “doesn’t matter anymore,” and I hope they offer some kind of report at the end. Because this thing needs closure, for his friends and family, for the claimants, and for the sport as well.

I don’t think it matters if they continue the investigation of the new complaint. There was already a decision rendered. What was outstanding that was important and affected by the supposed new complaint was the appeal. Unlike the figure skating case, the appeal is pretty worthless without the appellant. Coming to a separate decision on an apparent new allegation also seems moot. I would like to see the process stopped even though “it doesn’t matter anymore” seems harsh. But considering one decision was already made, I think in this case, it’s probably the most respectful to just let the proceedings end regardless of whether the new complaint was credible.

[Denali6298]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Well, I’ve been accused of saying that all male students who ever rode with Jimmy Williams at any point should be investigated by SafeSport.

never said that.

but the same person who made that initial accusation now just wants to be argumentative, quote other parts of my post, continue to allege that I am somehow not taking responsibility for my own words, make references to Sarah Huckabee Sanders and compare me ypbher… and on and on.

Its really bizarre, frankly.

@Peggy piped up to acknowledge that a different comment of mine was referring to HH. You replied to her… and frankly I don’t know what to make of your reply. Maybe you didn’t understand Peggy’s comment was in response to my earlier comment, and you just got mixed up about who said what in the course of this thread.

I really don’t understand what is going on in terms of how this has devolved into some attacking other posters on this thread.

I can relate to people who have strong emotions and responses about those folks who continue to defend people like Jimmy Williams, and want to do away with Safe Sport altogether. But I also understand lawyers who have concerns about due process and how this system of accusation, investigations, and banning folks from organized sports which are tied to their livelihoods is not without flaws.

I knew who you were talking about and my comment to Peggy was merely stating I hope people don’t twist her words. I agree about the argumentative poster. Yes I read your words but I didn’t think you meant them verbatim. I thought the exact same thing.

I wasn’t trying to be argumentative.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Denali6298 - Thanks

[HLMom]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Well, I’ve been accused of saying that all male students who ever rode with Jimmy Williams at any point should be investigated by SafeSport.

never said that.

but the same person who made that initial accusation now just wants to be argumentative, quote other parts of my post, continue to allege that I am somehow not taking responsibility for my own words, make references to Sarah Huckabee Sanders and compare me ypbher… and on and on.

Its really bizarre, frankly.

@Peggy piped up to acknowledge that a different comment of mine was referring to HH. You replied to her… and frankly I don’t know what to make of your reply. Maybe you didn’t understand Peggy’s comment was in response to my earlier comment, and you just got mixed up about who said what in the course of this thread.

I really don’t understand what is going on in terms of how this has devolved into some attacking other posters on this thread.

I can relate to people who have strong emotions and responses about those folks who continue to defend people like Jimmy Williams, and want to do away with Safe Sport altogether. But I also understand lawyers who have concerns about due process and how this system of accusation, investigations, and banning folks from organized sports which are tied to their livelihoods is not without flaws.

You should be commended for your fair-mindedness and sensible points. Though some posters seemingly won’t acknowledge it, it is possible to hold two thoughts in our head at once: (1) we want to eliminate sexual abuse from equestrian sport, and (2) we want to implement fair procedures that lead to the truth and minimize the chances of an innocent individual suffering harm. I suspect (and hope) 99% of posters would embrace both of these principles.

[Denali6298]

@HLMom

You should be commended for your fair-mindedness and sensible points. Though some posters seemingly won’t acknowledge it, it is possible to hold two thoughts in our head at once: (1) we want to eliminate sexual abuse from equestrian sport, and (2) we want to implement fair procedures that lead to the truth and minimize the chances of an innocent individual suffering harm. I suspect (and hope) 99% of posters would embrace both of these principles.

It would be great if people actually addressed points posters bring up instead of dodging them because they don’t fit their narrative.

[TooManyBays]

I haven’t read every one of the 17 pages of this thread. But I just have to say, I’m deeply troubled by recent events.
I am troubled that SafeSport possibly pushed someone to commit suicide.
I am troubled that overall, SafeSport seems to be extremely vague about how they determine someone must be banned, and have reversed a ban because on further review the punishment was too harsh.
And I am troubled by the caustic comments being left online, accusing victims, attacking the (possible) reporter of Gage, and overall starting a big internet trash fire.

All I know is that USEF, USEF members, and SafeSport need to figure something out. What is implemented is not working. I think we can all agree on that. We need to figure out a way to coexist with SafeSport, and SafeSport needs to find a way to work with the equestrian community or they and USEF will lose the community. Unlike many other sports it is possible to be an competing equestrian and not be part of a NGB. More and more unrated shows give prize money and rewards.

[Denali6298]

@HLMom you continue to avoid posts that punch holes in your narrative. You really aren’t looking for honest discourse.

@Virginia Horse Mom I’m sorry you thought I didn’t understand.

@TooManyBays it’s never good to jump in at the end of thread saying “I haven’t read but…”. How is Safe Sport not working? I honestly don’t think enough time has passed to make a judgement either way? So no we all can’t agree that it’s not working . Had you actually read the thread you would realize that some people don’t think it’s not working.

They are not vague on the process. You, like a lot of people, just refuse to read the materials provided and ask any questions to the appropriate people.

[Denali6298]

@Denali6298

@HLMom you continue to avoid posts that punch holes in you’re narrative. You really aren’t looking for honest discourse.

@Virginia Horse Mom I’m sorry you thought I didn’t understand.

@TooManyBays it’s never good to jump in at the end of thread saying “I haven’t read but…”. How is Safe Sport not working? I honestly don’t think enough time has passed to make a judgement either way? They are not vague on the process. You like a lot of people, just refuse to read the materials provided and ask any questions to the appropriate people.

[MyssMyst]

@HLMom

You should be commended for your fair-mindedness and sensible points. Though some posters seemingly won’t acknowledge it, it is possible to hold two thoughts in our head at once: (1) we want to eliminate sexual abuse from equestrian sport, and (2) we want to implement fair procedures that lead to the truth and minimize the chances of an innocent individual suffering harm. I suspect (and hope) 99% of posters would embrace both of these principles.

This. This all the way.

Sooooooo… On a tangent. Does Safesport have a provision for rehabilitation? Say for these older cases, you have someone who did do it. But they can document they’ve received some kind of help/therapy/treatment and there is no evidence of a current issue? Would that change anything for anyone?

Would it be possible for coaches to self-report to Safesport and complete some kind of rehabilitation therapy with all coaching supervised by someone approved by Safesport for a certain amount of time after that program is completed?

ETA: Clearly some cases are beyond egregious and should never be allowed in such a position ever again

[TooManyBays]

@Denali6298

@HLMom you continue to avoid posts that punch holes in your narrative. You really aren’t looking for honest discourse.

@Virginia Horse Mom I’m sorry you thought I didn’t understand.

@TooManyBays it’s never good to jump in at the end of thread saying “I haven’t read but…”. How is Safe Sport not working? I honestly don’t think enough time has passed to make a judgement either way? They are not vague on the process. You, like a lot of people, just refuse to read the materials provided and ask any questions to the appropriate people.

I’ve read the SafeSport guidelines/rules given. It doesn’t explain what burden of proof needs to be met for someone to be banned. That is what many people are upset about. It seems as though the burden of proof needed is just an accusation.
And please don’t assume anything about me. You speak of honest discourse but attack instead of conversing. I have done nothing to you, why come out of the gate on the attack?

[Denali6298]

@TooManyBays

I’ve read the SafeSport guidelines/rules given. It doesn’t explain what burden of proof needs to be met for someone to be banned. That is what many people are upset about. It seems as though the burden of proof needed is just an accusation.
And please don’t assume anything about me. You speak of honest discourse but attack instead of conversing. I have done nothing to you, why come out of the gate on the attack?

If you have actually read up Safe Sport, hell of you actually read this thread you would know it takes more than “just an accusation.” Carry on.

Also if by attacking you mean me asking you to explain your position in detail, well I don’t know how to help with that.

You didn’t answer my question.

ETA: It does explain the burden of proof and that has been posted here several times and discussed. But you haven’t read the thread. Remember how I said it’s never good to not read a thread but talk anyway?

[Denali6298]

@MyssMyst

This. This all the way.

Sooooooo… On a tangent. Does Safesport have a provision for rehabilitation? Say for these older cases, you have someone who did do it. But they can document they’ve received some kind of help/therapy/treatment and there is no evidence of a current issue? Would that change anything for anyone?

Would it be possible for coaches to self-report to Safesport and complete some kind of rehabilitation therapy with all coaching supervised by someone approved by Safesport for a certain amount of time after that program is completed?

ETA: Clearly some cases are beyond egregious and should never be allowed in such a position ever again

This question honestly is for Safe Sport. I do not think anyone here can answer it.

That is my frustration with this. People asking questions here, rather than asking the PTB at Safe Sport and then going all high and right when random people can’t answer the questions.

Myssmyst not saying you’ve done this, but others have and I have noticed a trend. Everyone is asking great questions like yours. However, no one is asking the people who can actually give an actual answer.

[Tackpud]

@fair judy

This is a difficult thing for me. Reading all
of the “ Why didn’t the (victims) come forward previously?” are a knife to the gut. Most of you may remember my posts regarding my assault as a young teen by a particularly nasty individual. My personal experience in a mandated report with Safe Sport was one which gave a high level of confidence in the former LEO and FBI who were interviewing me. Do things need to be tweaked? Yes certainly as in every start up if such a massive undertaking. I can sure as hell tell you that in my case Decades of misdiagnosis could have been attenuated.

Thank you. And I also want to know why everyone is saying this is from 40 years ago with a girl who said she was 18? Do we know for a fact that she was actually the accuser? No. We don’t because we haven’t been privy to the case. And we won’t be because it is not our business. Safe Sport said there were “multiple accusations involving minors” but did not give a timeline. So this could have happened at any time in the past 40 years. And another accuser just came forward - and again we don’t know when this accusation is alleged to have taken place. It could have been 40 years ago it could have been 4 weeks ago. We don’t know and we have no right to know. What we do know is that Safe Sport conducted an investigation that led them to believe he should be removed from membership in any national governing body sports. So USEF was required to list him on their list as is every other governing sport body.

To the accusers, hold your heads high and reach out for the support you need.

My my condolences to his friends and family. Losing a loved one through suicide is horrible.

[Bobby7]

To be ban for life, I would think there needs to be criminal charges filed as well for such serious allegations.

[Tackpud]

@Bobby7

To be ban for life, I would think there needs to be criminal charges filed as well for such serious allegations.

Why? The ban is from a club - not a jail sentence.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@MyssMyst

This. This all the way.

Sooooooo… On a tangent. Does Safesport have a provision for rehabilitation? Say for these older cases, you have someone who did do it. But they can document they’ve received some kind of help/therapy/treatment and there is no evidence of a current issue? Would that change anything for anyone?

Would it be possible for coaches to self-report to Safesport and complete some kind of rehabilitation therapy with all coaching supervised by someone approved by Safesport for a certain amount of time after that program is completed?

ETA: Clearly some cases are beyond egregious and should never be allowed in such a position ever again

That’s an interesting question. Essentially, could people self report a past issue or something proactively, complete some sort of program, and avoid the investigation and being banned issue.

Almost like many employers do with employees who have a drinking or substance abuse problem.

The major argument against this is that there is little to no evidence of any effective and reliable means of treating and rehabilitating people predisposed to sexually exploiting minors. Furthermore, as a parent, if I learned that Safe Sport was actually made aware of people with any of these sorts of issues with respect to sexual exploitation of minors, and then allowed them to continue on in a specific youth sport because of some sort of self-reporting and voluntary rehab program … I would be upset. And inclined to spend time and money on a different youth sport, or a different sports organization with my kids.

I am all for innocent until proven guilty in general, but when it comes to a self confessed abuser claiming to be rehabilitated? That’s fine… but I do want to avoid having my kids interact closely with someone like that.

I worry a lot about bad people having access to my kids. Admittedly more so than is healthy. But there are so many sad stories. Kids only get one childhood… and I am determined to make theirs better than mine was in some important ways.

[RugBug]

@Denali6298

Do you know who Paul Vallarie is? He was a part of a group that killed his clients horses for insurance money. The FBI was involved. He skated out on significant jail time because he wore a wire for the FBI. Barney Ward was involved, McClain’s dad. Guess what? People still entrusted their horses in his care. They still board with him. Why? Because he’s that good.

I know some people think the link to PV is the same and unrefutable…sorry, but it’s not. I know a lot of people think animals are the equal to humans but I don’t feel that way at all, so while I may not choose to ride with anyone involved in the horse killing fraud, I would NEVER consider riding with someone molesting young children. I don’t want to derail this thread to PV, but it’s just not the same to me…and to many others.

This conversation has become useless. There is no way to bring up legitimate concerns about the actions of SafeSport without being accused of supporting molestors and predators and wanting to brush it all under the rug.

@HLMom : thanks again for the Atlantic article. It puts my unease into clearer view. Safe Sport is 100% needed and I supported it, but not without reservation and a critical eye.

[Denali6298]

@Tackpud

Thank you. And I also want to know why everyone is saying this is from 40 years ago with a girl who said she was 18? Do we know for a fact that she was actually the accuser? No. We don’t because we haven’t been privy to the case. And we won’t be because it is not our business. Safe Sport said there were “multiple accusations involving minors” but did not give a timeline. So this could have happened at any time in the past 40 years. And another accuser just came forward - Andrew agin we don’t know when this accusation is alleged to have taken place. It could have been 40 years ago it could have been 4 weeks ago. We don’t know and we have no right to know. What we do know is that Safe Sport conducted an investigation that led them to believe he should be removed from membership in any national governing body sports. So USEF was required to list him on their list as isn’t every other governing sport body.

To the accusers, hold your heads high and reach out for the support you need.

My my condolences to his friends and family. Losing a loved one through suicide is horrible.

I love this post. And quoting because I only get one like per post.

[TooManyBays]

@Denali6298

If you have actually read up Safe Sport, hell of you actually read this thread you would know it takes more than “just an accusation.” Carry on.

Also if by attacking you mean me asking you to explain your position in detail, well I don’t know how to help with that.

You didn’t answer my question.

I’m pretty sure my original post answered your question.

Safesport is alienating the community. USEF and safesport have been extremely vague and this has caused panic. Someone who was given a lifetime ban appealed and got 7 months. SafeSport could ruin careers instantly, and yet there seems to be little information on what they consider to be strong enough evidence to punish someone.

Many of the newly released rules are vaguely explained, at best, and as some COTH members have pointed out some seem to blantantly contradict each other. It feels like these new rules were slapped on to every NGB out there, with no real look at how they would fit the actual sport, and so people were panicking over that already. Now they are panicking even more!

This panic is causing some of the most horrid comments about victims. Some Facebook posts feel like you are stepping back into the 1800s. If nothing else, that shows that something failed along the line here. Is it Safesport? Is it USEF? I can’t say. But the amount of panic and backlash this has gotten has to tell you something isn’t working.