Rob Gage

[Jealoushe]

@MintHillFarm

The idea of Safe Sport is not the problem.
But when they take on the roll of judge and jury before all evidence is in, is the issue.

The process needs to change. I agree they need to investigate. But to put a person’s life on hold when accused while they do, is wrong. Especially in a situation that is over 3.5 decades old!

Ok, but they do investigate before they suspend.

Why do people think, the time that has passed since the event is relevant? It isn’t. It still happened, and those who abuse minors don’t do this on a one off anyway.

[equestrian_mom1]

@MyssMyst

Even in the early 2000s, I dated someone much older before I turned 18. It was lightly questioned, but generally accepted. I’m not saying it’s right, but I do think we need to be reasonable. I think Safesport has a premise everyone can get behind, but the application of Safesport has some real issues. And I think the potential for abuse is huge. Anonymous reporting is an issue. You go to the cops? Your name is on that report if you want it to go anywhere. That deters false reporting. Even if it’s proven false in the end, the accusation and investigation alone is enough to ruin an entire career.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation in the potential for abuse. No one has been set down because of an anonymous report. The accused is informed of who the allegations are made by (in the case of minors, initials are used, not full names, to protect their confidentiality). Again, sanctions are made based on the evidence available.

Just because someone is denying the allegations and telling a different story doesnt make them innocent. Again, these are trained and experienced investigators who are doing a thorough job. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow, especially if you had a different experience with someone.

This also isn’t about dating older men, it is about people abusing their power and status and sexually, emotionally and/or physically assaulting others and being held accountable for their actions. Its about forcing young athletes against their will, its about stopping people from thinking this is somehow acceptable behaviour.

[GPjumper]

@Jealoushe

Ok, but they do investigate before they suspend.

Why do people think, the time that has passed since the event is relevant? It isn’t. It still happened, and those who abuse minors don’t do this on a one off anyway.

Because they have suspended first. I’m involved in a case. The person was suspended and the investigation is ongoing.

[Jealoushe]

@GPjumper

Because they have suspended first. I’m involved in a case. The person was suspended and the investigation is ongoing.

They do some leg work first, at least they did with the person I know. Quite a bit actually.

[Denali6298]

@GPjumper

Because they have suspended first. I’m involved in a case. The person was suspended and the investigation is ongoing.

So if your child’s teacher was accused of sexually assaulting a classmate of your child, you would be okay with them still going on with life? Or would you want the school board to suspend them? Honest question.

[GPjumper]

@Jealoushe

They do some leg work first, at least they did with the person I know. Quite a bit actually.

They didn’t on this. I know because there wasn’t time. Plus the investigator I spoke to had no formal training. This isn’t a profesional. It’s two amateurs in a he said/she said from years ago.

[greysfordays]

I think this issue is really complex. It’s a discussion we all need to be having though bc the ramifications are huge. We know the sport has been too far in the camp of ignoring the victims. And that is awful, that has surely caused tremendous pain. We know that clear forms of predatory behavior need to be stopped immediately. They have long-term consequences.

I think the USEF would be really well served to bring light into how their internal investigations work and what the bar is for setting someone down. It’s tricky bc it’s not like a drug test where we can point to clear evidence that a rule was broken. I mean even when we do have clear drug tests, things still get screwy :mad:.

I do think we should always err on the side of believing victims of physical abuse who come forward, because the research is so clear that the number of people who come lie about sexual abuse allegations is tiny.

But what about just really inappropriate comments? I actually rode with Rob as a teenager, from 16 to 18. He definitely made comments that I thought were over the line. They didn’t really shock me, but I was also raised in a French family that was very open about sexuality. And he absolutely never once initiated anything directly sexual with me, or touch me inappropriately. I think the only time he hugged me was when his student died in a car accident. Would he yell at me to drop my stirrups and stick my t!ts out (which I didn’t have then and still kind of dont :))… yeah.

Looking back on it now, I could absolutely see some of his students being negatively impacted by the things he said. Because they were inappropriate. I would be pissed if he said that to my child now. But while I think what he said back then was wrong, the social context was different. So I’m not sure I would agree with permanently setting him down in that context.

If you told me someone came forward and said he touched her inappropriately, I think that’s in a completely different category.

I think what I struggle with is knowing how the investigation was handled. It is so hard to get this stuff right especially when it happened decades ago. I think we need to acknowledge that difficulty. And that it’s very hard to come up with a system that’s going to always work. Mistakes will get made in both directions and unfortunately, that has really grim consequences on both sides. For all his flaws, literally no one taught me about grit better than Rob. I am sad to learn of his suicide. I wish we had more transparency to make the best decisions we can.

[Peggy]

If the people on the Vanessa Brown FB thread want to point fingers, they should be pointing them at Larry Nassar and others that were the catalyst for Safe Sport.

Safe Sport is not USEF, but as the NGB (remember that fight?) they are the face of it to the equestrian world.

Statutory rape was definitely illegal in California, even forty years ago. Based on this (https://escholarship.org/content/qt39t3c2s9/qt39t3c2s9.pdf) the original law was enacted in 1859. <disclaimer>This is to answer the question upthread on statutory rape law history. I am not implying what any posters were or were not doing with their boyfriend, or girlfriends for that matter. </disclaimer>

[Max123]

@equestrian_mom

Safesport is not the problem. For years athletes have suffered abuse in this sport (and others) to the extent that the Olympic Committee and government organizations had to create a third party organization to try and reign in these predators and remove them from continuing to harm. It has been incredibly challenging for anyone to get a handle on controlling and eliminating abuse in sports and while the system isn’t perfect, it isn’t nearly as flawed as some would like you to believe.

Sadly, sexual assault scandals have long been covered up in sports. From local clubs to national bodies, people turn a blind eye or try to quietly deal with allegations to protect themselves and the sport, not to protect the parties involved.

While I am sure that this man was a friend to many, I am equally as sure that the investigation that resulted in Safesport issuing sanctions was complete and thorough. Anyone insinuating that is was not is continuing the pattern of denial, and contributing to the larger issue of victims not feeling like they have the support to report these abuses.

According to FBI statistics, only 2% of all rape and sexual assault reports are false. Between 2% and 22% of children and teens are victims of sexual assault as a result of their participation in sports. Whether you want to admit it or not, he was guilty of a crime, even if it happened 30 years ago. The criminal charges were becoming a reality that he couldn’t overlook and unfortunately, he took his own life. He made this choice, it does not reflect on anyone else. Sometimes it is surprising to learn what others are capable of doing, sometimes it is not so surprising but people voice their denial rather than to admit the truth, that they were “friends” with someone capable of doing something that horrible. Being a successful rider or trainer does not give someone the privilege to take what they want from people and to treat them horribly. It does not give them the right to prey on children.

Safesport investigations are performed by individuals with law enforcement backgrounds. Retired police officers, FBI agents, sexual crimes investigators, all people with extensive knowledge and experience. Sanctions are NOT issued without sufficient evidence. Even temporary sanctions have to have enough “merit” behind them, while the complete investigation is ongoing. Multiple people are interviewed. The process gives both the victim and the accused opportunity to present their case and provide evidence. The burden of proof has to be met. The report is brought before a panel of people to decide on the measures that will be placed. It is not something that is handed down lightly, and the seriousness of the matter is carefully considered before imposing sanctions.

These measures are placed to ensure the safety of the youngest and most vulnerable in the sport. Do you not think that this is an important measure to have? All to often people will point and whisper and gossip, but then do nothing to actually protect someone.

Victims never get the chance to undo what’s been done to them and will forever bear the burden and scars of their abuse. A few posts tonight blame USEF and Safesport for suicide. This is insane! What about the suicides committed by those that have been abused? What about the children who kept quiet while they were being abused because of the pressure they faced that have had to live with destructive life-long mental health issues because they couldn’t come forward because they feared they would not have the support needed to bring themselves justice? All because they feared they would lose the ability to continue participating in something they were truly passionate about?

If you have been in this industry long enough, you have seen and/or heard of examples of inappropriate behavior to young riders. How many young girls and boys, that look up to trainers, riders, and other professionals in this industry are manipulated and coerced or forced to have sexual relations? It often isn’t quite black and white with adults, but any case that involves a child needs to be taken seriously and people need to open their eyes up and admit that the abuse is more widespread than any of us would like to admit.

The good news is that the days of looking the other way are over. We must do everything in our power to make the sport safer, healthier and free from all forms of abuse. People do not need to live in fear over someone’s reaction because they have been reported for abusive behavior. By holding people accountable we are telling our children and the future riders in this sport that they matter, and that the environment is focusing on athlete safety, not protecting unethical and illegal acts.

More importantly, we need to weed out the sick individuals that prey on others so that everyone who is good in this sport can excel. There are far too many great trainers, athletes and other professionals in this sport to let a handful of bad ones ruin it for all. If everyone tried to work proactively and positively with USEF, and with Safesport rules can be created that do work.

There are several unique factors that contribute to sexual, physical and emotional abuse in the equestrian setting. Young athletes traveling with coaches and other sport affiliated adults, frequent isolated contact between young athletes and other individuals. It is about creating a system that protects our young athletes and contributes to the success of all.

Very well said. The obscene reluctance to adhere to Safe Sport policy seems to belong strictly to the horse world. USEF is a club - you do not have a constitutional right to be a member of a club. Any job or organization 99.9% will suspend an employee or member during investigations of sexual assault. In the corporate world, any whiff of impropriety these days would most likely cost someone their job. They would be known as the company that employs child molesters - EVEN IF the allegations are 30 years old. My children are involved in other sports and Safe Sport is rolled out as their policy … I don’t see any backlash from USA Hockey, USA Soccer … The attitudes of the people in the horse show world are shocking and disgusting and nothing short of spoiled brats having tantrums because they don’t like the new rules. Sexual abuse is rampant in the horse show world and has been for YEARS.

[Denali6298]

So how was the investigation handled? Everyone keeps saying the process is flawed and alluding to being a part of it, but no one is saying what specifically is flawed.

[fordtraktor]

@Peggy

If the people on the Vanessa Brown FB thread want to point fingers, they should be pointing them at Larry Nassar and others that were the catalyst for Safe Sport.

Safe Sport is not USEF, but as the NGB (remember that fight?) they are the face of it to the equestrian world.

Statutory rape was definitely illegal in California, even forty years ago. Based on this (https://escholarship.org/content/qt3…qt39t3c2s9.pdf) the original law was enacted in 1859. <disclaimer>This is to answer the question upthread on statutory rape law history. I am not implying what any posters were or were not doing with their boyfriend, or girlfriends for that matter. </disclaimer>

In CA anyone who has sex with a person under 18 is guilty of a statutory rape, full stop. Even another minor. Unless they are married.

I don’t know the details of Rob’s situation at all, but I am not sure we want to go around handing out lifetime bans to every equestrian who had sex before the age of 18. I am sure a lot of us would be on that list…

[nycjumper]

@ThePerfectFit

I have many issues with SafeSport. We are not like other sports, so the daily “communicate with the minor athlete and parent, another adult, 2 additional minors” is irresponsible. If a student is texted to get on their horse 15 mins early, does there really need to be another adult to hound them as well? It’s the “let’s hold your hand through life” society. Zero responsibility, zero accountability. Horses are a lifestyle. SafeSport is not the answer.

…

Not picking on you but seriously - is it so hard to have 2 numbers on a group text? I do group texts every day. So you have Jane Jr Rider. Just add Father/Mother of Jane on text. They don’t have to answer or do anything . They’re just cc’ed. You’re texting anyway or sending a WS back to the barn to tell Jane Jr to get on anyway. It really isn’t onerous.

[nycjumper]

Also, I think USEF has done a terrible job of explaining Safe Sport and how the process works. I think if they walked through how the process works, people would feel a lot better about it.

[marginall]

Horse people will vehemently defend trainers who are accused of sexual misconduct with minors saying SafeSport is unfair and in the next breath, volunteer to report a “shamateur” based on second-hand knowledge on an anonymous forum.

Horse people will stay with trainers who sleep with underage grooms, use illegal drugs and sensitize horses’ legs at shows, and sell them broken horses with padded commissions, but publicly shame an international Grand Prix rider because she wears feathers in her hair.

Best thing about our sport? Horses. Worse thing? People.

[caryledee]

@nycjumper

Not picking on you but seriously - is it so hard to have 2 numbers on a group text? I do group texts every day. So you have Jane Jr Rider. Just add Father/Mother of Jane on text. They don’t have to answer or do anything . They’re just cc’ed. You’re texting anyway or sending a WS back to the barn to tell Jane Jr to get on anyway. It really isn’t onerous.

Yep. And every barn I have been a part of has a second trainer, trusted groom, or working student over 18 that could be the second adult if the parents don’t want to be bothered. No one is that isolated that they cannot think of any other adult to cc on a text message. People are just looking for ways to whine about this.

[Denali6298]

@nycjumper

Also, I think USEF has done a terrible job of explaining Safe Sport and how the process works. I think if they walked through how the process works, people would feel a lot better about it.

Why is it so hard to go to the Safe Sport web site and read? Why is it so hard to contact Safe Sport with questions?

[caryledee]

@Peggy

If the people on the Vanessa Brown FB thread want to point fingers, they should be pointing them at Larry Nassar and others that were the catalyst for Safe Sport.

Safe Sport is not USEF, but as the NGB (remember that fight?) they are the face of it to the equestrian world.

Safe Sport was signed into law by President Trump in February 2018. USEF is following the law. If anyone is upset about this, write Trump, write Congress, tell them how awful it is. USEF has very little say in these matters.

[Freebird]

I was sexually abused in the equine industry. Repeatedly. Yes, it was many moons ago, but it still affects me to this day. I have no idea if the SafeSport rules would have protected me. I highly doubt it though, and while certian people know of what I went through, I will cart most of it to my grave.

Reporting sexual abuse in an industry where most of these professionals are hailed as equestrian heros, is not as easy as you think.

I’m not sure what the right answers are, to be honest. I think victims need to be protected, especially minors, but victims come in all ages.

I also feel that as a trainer, I don’t want us to get near that blurry line where I can’t even hug my kids.

At the end of the day though, I really don’t think we can blame USEF for Rob Gage’s death.

[equestrian_mom1]

@nycjumper

Also, I think USEF has done a terrible job of explaining Safe Sport and how the process works. I think if they walked through how the process works, people would feel a lot better about it.

For anyone wondering how Safesport works.

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/sports/item/safe-sport-series-the-systemic-problems-in-sport-that-leave-athletes-at-risk-of-abuse

[Moesha]

Time does not erase something- maybe physically the wounds do not become outward scars or the smile stays as bright as ever- but inside the pain, fear and shame linger on and ebb and flow like a tide. I understand how things that happened decades ago being bought to light now might not sit well with people- but just like archaeological finds they were always there just needed to be discovered and unearthed