Rolex Live Stream/Results/Comments thread

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=riderboy;8646814]
Interesting article! There are deep pocket female owners like Jackie Mars and Annie Jones to name two. I don’t know if they or all of the “syndicates” seek out men in preference to women or not. One thing I like about Eventing is the level playing field for sex and gender. At the lower levels where I skulk, it’s a women’s sport all around. I suppose one could make the argument that in terms of diversity Eventing seems to be a sport o white privilege.[/QUOTE]

It’s an article I have printed out & at my desk. In eventing there are so many things…KOC is heavily entrenched in everything, and has set her people up with owners with very deep pockets.

In a 1974 article in Psychology Today, they presented their findings, based on more than 20,000 responses to reader surveys in that magazine and Redbook. They found that women who achieved success in male-dominated environments were at times likely to oppose the rise of other women. This occurred, they argued, largely because the patriarchal culture of work encouraged the few women who rose to the top to become obsessed with maintaining their authority.

Women who have risen in male-dominated fields may want to tell themselves that their struggle and success were unique. As a result they sometimes treat the performance of females who follow as never quite good enough.

The perception that society has on male vs. female boss undoubtedly plays a role in the ability for female eventers to conduct their business. Its an unfortunate stereotype, as many of the female riders who are extremely competitive are going to be harder for people to like than their male counterpart.

A 2007 Syracuse University study published in the Journal of Occupational and Organizational Psychology found that both men and women were less satisfied with female managers who were not empathetic. In my experience, women also tend to resent female bosses who adopt a brusque and assertive management style, even as they find it perfectly acceptable for male bosses.

I hope everyone reads this article.

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=NCRider;8646860]
dressage test isn’t easy and to be any sort of competitive you needed to hit 65%, which is not a bad score for straight dressage.[/QUOTE]

agree for this group it’s a good score, and many ammys, third and above most of us would be fine with 65%.

the olympians are all up in the 75%+ for straight dressage, if we are talking the equivalent of MJ, PD, etc

I was very impressed with the quality of dressage at Rolex, all around.

[JP60]

@BFNE

The CD used the terrain to make some pretty tough xc questions—as you would expect at a 4*…and there is terrain at Rolex…you were either going UP or Down the entire course.

I watched the CD course walked and when done I thought, man, this is a tough course, but fair. He gave runout situations, but while technical, I never saw trappy. I say that more from watching many 4* over time, but clearly not riding them. I do like this CD.

I commented earlier, but will do so again in support of the poster that saine “He’s just a horse”. I watched that ride and there were times when I was saying “Don’t hold him, let him go”. In comparing the 1st and 2nd place rides, MJ rode forward, but very smooth and bold. I mean the man did a steeplechase like jump on the last fence to try and make time. When Allison left the box it just seemed to me she was riding conservative and not as smooth. Could it be that by the time they got to that fence Arthur was not as in front as he needed to be, the rider not as confident. Is it possible that it was the Rider with the bad day, tough conditions, pressures of placement that affected how the horse responded?

Maybe he’s “spooky” or “ditchy”, but given the amount of time she has ridden him, and she has had some great rides on this horse, I would feel she would know “okay, he could get sticky here I really need to push him forward”. Two times I watched MJ do just that. The horse got a little less forward and he demanded a better response and got it.

Regarding ML, I watched the recording so did not know about the time issue till now. What I did see was almost from the start, a team not in sync. Demeter showed no real power and in a way, a testament to Demeter’s heart for even clearly lacking enough energy to run well, she tried every fence.

What really upset me, already seeing a horse lacking enough power to run a tough 4* in less than ideal footing, was when the horse trotted, TROTTED after a corner and ML had to kick/whip to get her moving again. Right there it should have stopped. Right there with the rider being the Horseman and recognizing that this horse had already been out of gas. That was wrong and I am glad that the horse was not injured given the poor decision making of the rider.

In regards to fitness, there were many tired horses on Sunday. When we talk about the US’s ability to compete, when we compare to such as MJ and WPF, perhaps some of that comparison should be in the basic fitness of the horse. Are we now, in the US, training barely to the level, while in Europe they train fitness above it? I heard an announcer make the comment that MJ was basically running a 5* course, and what I can take away from that, he trains his horses to that level of fitness. In preparation, train like it is the worst conditions, not the best, so when you are 5 secs behind you can ask a horse at the last fence to take it like the first.

I ponder if this whole string of horses thing impacts rides and fitness since the Jockey spends less time with each horse and they are handed off to other riders for getting into shape. Folks talk about bond. Given what I read about MJ, training his horses from the beginning, rewarding them, making sure they could ride above, and understanding their weakness to better handle something on course; of course he’s one of the best.

Anyone of those riders at Rolex could hop on a 4* horse,leave the start box and have a decent start. But over time, the miscommunications, the lack of understanding horse cues, the missing trust that is built just from long time in the saddle, not all would finish.

I was sad for Colleen and I also wondered about Covert Rights (man I miss Shiraz), Hoping more for Eliza in the future, and overall thought this was a better 4* Rolex event, given the conditions. That no horse or rider had major injury was a good thing, a statement of the course designer ability to challenge, yet not go too far.

[Larksmom]

gm, I read the article, and I must say, having worked in a non horsie field, I always MUCH preferred to work for a man than a woman. As I am not a psychologist, I can only speak to my impressions. Working for a woman is very different than working for a man.

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=JP60;8646950]
overall thought this was a better 4* Rolex event, given the conditions. That no horse or rider had major injury was a good thing, a statement of the course designer ability to challenge, yet not go too far.[/QUOTE]

I 100% agree this was a really good Rolex, nothing dangerous, only run outs and some ‘simple’ falls. Nothing making my overly gasp like I have in that past. Nothing too cringe worthy. I didn’t see every ride, but out of the ones I did see, I think it rode well with the conditions, it was a great course. Disappointed with some of the rides yes, but nothing I was overly bothered by, mostly ML.

[hopashore1]

[QUOTE=Midwesterner;8646781]
Thank you!

So, really, for her to complain about being late, and try to blame it on anyone else, is really ridiculous![/QUOTE]

I am not at all a huge ML fan for various reasons but she never complained and never tried to blame it on anyone else. She was asked a direct question about what happened in the incident, and took responsibility for it…I don’t think it’s a satisfactory explanation, if she really expects to have team aspirations or continue being competitive at upper level eventing, but I think it’s unfair to make the scenario something it’s not.

Not pulling Demi up when she was clearly exhausted that early in the course though…there’s no defense for that. Had she been two or three fences from home, I might have thought (even) less of her horsemanship but understood the drive. She wasn’t even close to the end, that mare was clearly not jumping or galloping well before the fall. No excuse for that.

[Polydor]

[QUOTE=WasthatC;8646790]
Do we know why Colleen didn’t run Covert Rights at Rolex? Please tell me he’s sound.[/QUOTE]

She withdrew him before Rolex. Here is the article from EN

http://eventingnation.com/colleen-rutledge-withdraws-covert-rights/

P.

[WasthatC]

[QUOTE=Polydor;8647058]
She withdrew him before Rolex. Here is the article from EN

http://eventingnation.com/colleen-rutledge-withdraws-covert-rights/

P.[/QUOTE]

Did you not hear me? I said please tell me he’s sound.
Thank you for the link. Crossing fingers…

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8646749]
In the US the fan base is largely female. There’s fantastic article in the WSJ about the Queen Bee syndrome. Selectors, owners, fans - getting the right owners for a rider - etc.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323884304578328271526080496[/QUOTE]

I am not sure the Queen Bee syndrome really applies in eventing (or most horse sports). I am sure it comes into play at times, but at the lower levels in the English disciplines, there are so many more females than men that very few would ever get to the top if they didn’t get some female support along the way.

I really think what probably separates the riders who attract sponsors easily vs those that don’t are people/networking skills and charisma - or close connections that have those things if the rider doesn’t. Boyd seems to have those things in spades. I think these soft skills tend to come more easily to males than females (although there are notable exceptions of both genders).

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=Groom&Taxi;8647112]
I am not sure the Queen Bee syndrome really applies in eventing (or most horse sports). I am sure it comes into play at times, but at the lower levels in the English disciplines, there are so many more females than men that very few would ever get to the top if they didn’t get some female support along the way.

I really think what probably separates the riders who attract sponsors easily vs those that don’t are people/networking skills and charisma - or close connections that have those things if the rider doesn’t. Boyd seems to have those things in spades. I think these soft skills tend to come more easily to males than females (although there are notable exceptions of both genders).[/QUOTE]

Did you read the entire article? You stating that men have charisma is the perfect example of the problem women in sports are facing; charisma is an adjective used to describe men, not women. Women need to be empathetic to appeal to most, while men do not, and yet they can still be considered charismatic without the requisite empathy.

You don’t think KOC has any characteristics? How about other female leaders of the sport? For instance, MLM establishes relationship w/KOC, KOC sets her up w/owners who write large checks, she stays on lists, gets lots of public praise from KOC, extensive media coverage, etc.

Though horse sports are different is some respects, they are far more deeply rooted in tradition than most sports. Old Boys Club.

There is also that good old fact, man of my friends are happy to admit, that a man with an accent is more enjoyable than their female counterpart :lol:

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=JER;8646230]
Men are better compensated and are given more credit and opportunities for the work they do, even when women do the same or greater work. Women earn less than men even in professions dominated by women. Etc. So it comes as no surprise that this is what happens in eventing.[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard, anecdotally, that it is harder for women to get both sponsorships and owners. I tend to believe it.

It’s a huge luxury, and it breeds success, to have a number of horses ‘waiting in the wings.’ Sure, a very talented rider can bring a horse (that others may not have the same success with) to the 3- or 4-star level, but how much better to be able to recognize the horse has limitations and sell it along to an owner that will peak at that same level – or who needs to learn the ropes – and concentrate on those 3 or 5 or 7 or 14 other horses that are (or may prove to be) sane, sound, are talented in all 3 disciplines, and have the drive to win.

Success breeds success, sure, and people want to be part of that success. So even if sexism doesn’t always play a part for each individual owner/sponsor, overall, sexism has a cumulative affect that can start the ball rolling a bit (or much) faster for talented men than talented women. Sometimes it’s just not possible for women to catch up, through no fault of their own. And I’m sure all those other factors come into play that are held more against women than men… looks and age. And charisma. :\

[Winding_Down]

I think the best predictors of “getting a string of horses” are being good to owners, taking good care of horses (loving them), being a great rider, and being male.

There have been women who overcame the boundaries (think KOC, who had a number of great sponsors over the years) and those women were superb to their horses and superb to their owners AND superb riders. One of the best present day examples is Sarah K. Murphy who has a wonderful owner who has supported her since she was a kid, and who is wonderful and caring toward her horses, providing excellent care. Sarah is also, imho, one of the best xc riders out there and her dressage and sj have improved greatly over the past 2 years or so. I am watching for her. She isn’t at the top of the leaderboard, but she is up there and is a good example of what it takes to get good horses.

MJ is a different animal all together. When we disparage US riders, lets not compare them to MJ; or if we do, let’s compare ALL riders to MJ. Also, part of his xc round on his mare was that she is NOT a hot spooky sort of horse like Arthur. To compare his riding to Allison’s is grossly unfair because they are NOT riding the same horse and not playing the same game. MJ picks a sort of horse, and he has the resources and the eye to pick that sort of horse. Both Americans AND foreigners do not make decisions or ride like MJ.

MLittle is NOT good at getting owners. Her horses are. Big difference.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8647176]
Did you read the entire article? You stating that men have charisma is the perfect example of the problem women in sports are facing; charisma is an adjective used to describe men, not women. Women need to be empathetic to appeal to most, while men do not, and yet they can still be considered charismatic without the requisite empathy.

You don’t think KOC has any characteristics? How about other female leaders of the sport? For instance, MLM establishes relationship w/KOC, KOC sets her up w/owners who write large checks, she stays on lists, gets lots of public praise from KOC, extensive media coverage, etc.

Though horse sports are different is some respects, they are far more deeply rooted in tradition than most sports. Old Boys Club.

There is also that good old fact, man of my friends are happy to admit, that a man with an accent is more enjoyable than their female counterpart :lol:[/QUOTE]

Yes, I read the whole article, and it didn’t really resonate with me with respect to eventing/equestrian sports. Maybe I haven’t traveled in the right circles. I have encountered Queen Bees (outside horses) often enough to be familiar with the type.

I’m not sure how your example of KOC supports the argument. It seems like trying to help ML succeed at the highest levels in not an example of Queen Bee-havior Maybe she has tried to sabotage or “hold down” other female riders - I certainly don’t know enough to know. But in many cases (including the ones cited in the article), I wonder if it isn’t about the Queen Bee feeling threatened and blocking female upward advancement as much as not caring for a particular female. That, in my experience and observation, is a lot more typical.

I don’t doubt that there is an Old Boys club mentality in some respects - especially when it comes to selections for this and that.

I am also not saying that you will never find a female rider with charisma - I just think the traits that define it as an almost intangible quality come together more often in men than women. Accents definitely help.

[vineyridge]

I think that we have to remember that WEG was on a brand new course–at least I think it was. Rolex has been Rolex for decades. That alone has to make a huge difference in the footing.

Jackie Mars supports Hannah Sue Burnett and Lauren Kieffer as well as ML. She’s not one who spends her money exclusively (or even at all) on males.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8647287]
I think that we have to remember that WEG was on a brand new course–at least I think it was. Rolex has been Rolex for decades. That alone has to make a huge difference in the footing.

Jackie Mars supports Hannah Sue Burnett and Lauren Kieffer as well as ML. She’s not one who spends her money exclusively (or even at all) on males.[/QUOTE]

It will be interesting to see how far Elisa Wallace can go. She’s pretty good with the social media and the mustang training gives her a hook with a larger audience. Whether that translates to additional opportunities after the current horse will be something to watch. It sets her apart from the crowd.

[Kwill]

It’s interesting too to hear the reaction to Lainey Ashker from the live feed announcer … she self-promotes, and it seems to invoke a lot of reaction. I just wonder if this has something to do with the culture of the sport, sort of a British “don’t make a fuss” attitude, or even worse, ladies don’t draw so much attention to yourself.

The male announcer for the live feed (sorry don’t recall his name) said numerous times about Lainey being “Queen of the Instagram,” commented that “she probably took a selfy” right after her ride, and so on. I really like her cams and other social media presentations, but it does seem there was some snarkiness to the amount of times this was mentioned.

What do others think? Just friendly teasing?

[Madison]

[QUOTE=Kwill;8647359]

The male announcer for the live feed (sorry don’t recall his name) said numerous times about Lainey being “Queen of the Instagram,” commented that “she probably took a selfy” right after her ride, and so on. I really like her cams and other social media presentations, but it does seem there was some snarkiness to the amount of times this was mentioned.

What do others think? Just friendly teasing?[/QUOTE]

It didn’t strike me as snark, since it is how she promotes herself and connects with her fans, and yeah, she probably did take a selfie right after her ride! It’s her thing! That said, I’m sure there are people with disdain for it, just like there are a lot of people who love that she does it.

[LadyB]

The problem with those who use social media too much, they tend to air their dirty laundry out on it. I can say there has been a few times that Laine has used Social Media to air her laundry out and its been tasteless and unprofessional. Obviously its her thing and she can do what she wants, but why would sponsors want to support her when she can come off very bitter and unsportsmanlike. Some times she’s tasteless and it makes me not want to support her. I do enjoy her cams, and she loves Al for sure, but even her poo-pooed post about her dressage, it was like come on, you have 2 more days to crawl up the ropes. The best thing is that with eventing its never completely over until the last horse goes. You can be dead last and still crawl to the top. Anything can happen.

I love social media, I love feeling involved and pretending I know these riders a bit more because of it, but when you make it too personal, it because tasteless.

JMO

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8647287]
I think that we have to remember that WEG was on a brand new course–at least I think it was. Rolex has been Rolex for decades. That alone has to make a huge difference in the footing.

Jackie Mars supports Hannah Sue Burnett and Lauren Kieffer as well as ML. She’s not one who spends her money exclusively (or even at all) on males.[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget DOC!

[Kwill]

Appreciate the responses…it did not strike me as snark at the time, but given that we are talking about sexism in sport, did make me wonder about it.

Saying too much can always be a problem, letting it all hang out can sometimes backfire on you!