RPSI and Standardbred mares

[dazedandconfuzed]

color me a bit confuzed… i’ve recently heard about a standardbred mare being accepted and placed in mare book II of the rpsi. i’ve read through the by-laws of the registry and do not see anywhere that indicates that standardbred are accepted by the registry. anyone have any insight into this?

“The studbook of the Zweibrücker warmblood is open. The breeding aim is the improvement of the breed.
The studbook is open to horses of other populations with the same breeding goals as stated above.
Stallions and mares from the following breeds (not all-inclusive and certain restrictions apply) are allowed
for the Zweibrücker riding horse:
A. A. Anglo-Arabian (AA)
AAV Anglo - Arabian ( x)
AV Arabian ( ox)
B Belgian Warmblood ( BWP)
Bay Bayer
Brdbg Brandenburg
CDN Canadian Warmblood
DK Danish Warmblood
Dt.Pf German Warmblood
Dt.SP. German Sport Horse
Hann Hanoverian
Hess Hessian warmblood
Holst Holsteiner
ISH Irish Sport Horse
JU Yugoslavia Warmblood
KWPN Netherlands Warmblood ( KWPN)
Meckl. Mecklenburg
NRPS Netherlands Warmblood ( NRPS )
Old Oldenburg
OS Oldenburg jumper
Pol. Polish Warmblood
Rhld Rhinelander
S.Wbl Swedish Warmblood
Sachs Sachse
SAnha Sachsen-Anhaltiner
Selle Francais SF
ShA Shagya Arabs
Thuer Thuringian
Trak . Trakehner
TschW Czech Warmblood
Ung . Hungarian Warmblood
USA American Warmblood (from approved breeding organizations/pedigrees)
Westphalia Westphalian
Wuertt Württemberg
Thoroughbred xx (xx)
Z.RPF Zangersheide Warmblood”

[Daventry]

I’m guessing you are talking about the Standardbred mare that was presented at our inspection site yesterday. Though, I should make it clear that this particular mare was trailered in to our inspection site and not owned by me personally. We just presented our pony mares and our Dutch Warmblood mare.

I was quite surprised as well, and looked through the by-laws. I think this wording from the by-laws answers your question: Stallions and mares from the following breeds (not all-inclusive and certain restrictions apply) are allowed. Meaning, other breeds may be accepted that are not included in the list. At least, that’s how I read it.

That being said, it should be noted that the RPSI will pretty much accept most breed into Book II and is more like a Certificate Of Pedigree (COP). I think people get Book I and Book II confused. Stallions and mares are RECORDED in Book II, not APPROVED. That’s where the catch is. It is not a breeding approval book. Most of the other Warmblood registries also offer some type of COP for mares and foals. Stallions and mares must be entered into Book I to get full breeding approval.

[Kerole]

However, am I right in that this Standardbred mare in Book II can breed to an RPSI approved stallion and her offspring will be in Book I - ostensibly they will be fully membered-up breeding animals in their own right?

[Nootka]

No it isn’t correct. It will take 4 generations before her offspring get full papers.

However, I did hear (and saw a picture of the full brand on said horse) of a mare by a book ll stallion getting a full brand 2 weeks ago. This is not something that should be possible because bylaws are in place.

[camohn]

There is inspected and approved. I assume the list above is for Book I approval. Others not on that list are book II. Inspected, not necessarily approved. As to a book II stallion siring book I offspring: I suppose it depends why he is in Book II. My previous stallion was a TB inspected at 3. He was in Book II initially as Otto said he liked him but he was too immature yet/ please re present later. So he was initially Book II, but he and there fore his offspring were eligible to move up .now book II due to pedigree will not change with time.

[PaulaM]

I think there is a lot of confusion as to when an offspring can be moved up, etc… My mare is by a stallion that had been licensed/recorded in 2006. She was among his last foals born in 2008… She technically received a premium score on Friday, however, as he had not completed his approvals and was gelded & subsequently sold, they told me they could not declare her a premium mare and she is still in mare book 2… Her dam if I remember correctly is in the Main Mare Book 1… and now to add to the confusion… Flyte has a full sister who appears on the 2009 Premium Mares list and according to some information I have received is listed is “Stutbuch 1”…

I have sent an e-mail to try and receive some clarity in regards to this issue… But until then, add me to the confused list.

[raffey1]

The RPSI website states that a Book II mare bred to a Book I stallion produces offspring that get full pink papers, not white COP papers.

[Nootka]

The horse that got full papers I know about is buy a Book II stallion. How is that possible?

[vineyridge]

French Trotters have been welcomed into the SF registry in the relatively recent past, and they have been infused with standardbred blood at various times. The great Halla was a mostly standardbred trotter. Trotters can make and produce GREAT jumpers. If a registry is open, there is absolutely no reason for trotters of both varieties not to be acceptable. Look at Galoubet whose dam was a French Trotter and sire was Alme. Look at Jappeloup whose sire was a French Trotter and dam was a TB.

[skykingismybaby1]

Is the shock from it being a Standardbred versus another outside breed?

I have seen a few Standardbreds become decidedly warmblood looking as they mature in good training.

[PaulaM]

[QUOTE=Nootka;8324225]
The horse that got full papers I know about is buy a Book II stallion. How is that possible?[/QUOTE]

I was a bit confused in regards to my mare so I had reached out to them via e-mail and received some clarification as my mares full sister has full papers (Pink) and upon inspection was placed in Mare Book 1 and my mare, even though she received a better score at inspection has white papers and is in Mare Book 2.

My mares sire was licensed/recorded in September 2006 and from what has been indicated to me he had SB1 status for his breeding years '04, '05, and '06. Without having any performance records, they had to move him into Stallion Book 2 after 2006. Foals sired by him born in '05, '06 and '07 have pink papers and the sire listed as Stallion Book 1. Foals born in '08 and after have him listed in book 2 and have white papers. If he were to complete his performance requirements now, all of his offspring with eligible dams would be upgraded, including my mare…

A bit confusing I know, but in the example you listed, maybe the sire was in SB1 when the mare was conceived and therefore eligible for full papers???

[Dressagelvr]

It is known far and wide that RSPI, AWS/AWR, and ISR/OldNA will accept anything with 4 legs in their lower books and that the offspring of these horses work their way up to the main books.

This is why there is little respect for these registries. If you’re buying a gelding, no big deal. A mare? I’d never have one from those registries.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8325029]
It is known far and wide that RSPI, AWS/AWR, and ISR/OldNA will accept anything with 4 legs in their lower books and that the offspring of these horses work their way up to the main books.

This is why there is little respect for these registries. If you’re buying a gelding, no big deal. A mare? I’d never have one from those registries.[/QUOTE]

Oldenburg has the same lower book rules as RPSI. If I remember correctly all German registries have to have them.I have not dealt with
Old/isr in a while but it used to be the pedigree had to be "more than 75% acceptable pedigree " to move up from ISR ( lower book) to Oldenburg (main book). And yes I had paint / WB cross mares that were ISR so they certainly do inspect non traditional breeds there.

[dazedandconfuzed]

I’ve heard from a 3rd party that had been in contact with the association on another matter, they asked the question and have heard that a mistake was made in placing the standardbred mare in mare book 2 and that they were going to be in contact with the individual who presented the mare to correct their error.

[Kerole]

The RPSI website states that a Book II mare bred to a Book I stallion produces offspring that get full pink papers, not white COP papers.

THIS. This is what I was lead to believe. I did not think they needed 4 further breeding generations to get to full papers.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8325029]
It is known far and wide that RSPI, AWS/AWR, and ISR/OldNA will accept anything with 4 legs in their lower books and that the offspring of these horses work their way up to the main books.

This is why there is little respect for these registries. If you’re buying a gelding, no big deal. A mare? I’d never have one from those registries.[/QUOTE]

actually that is not true about ISR/OLD anymore. They have become much tougher in their inspections over the past few years. So yes, they will accept non-traditional breeds into ISR those horses are held to a fairly high standard at inspection. They are strict as to pedigree what they will let into their main mare book for OLD. And they are strict as to what will be a premium foal.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8326053]
actually that is not true about ISR/OLD anymore. They have become much tougher in their inspections over the past few years. So yes, they will accept non-traditional breeds into ISR those horses are held to a fairly high standard at inspection. They are strict as to pedigree what they will let into their main mare book for OLD. And they are strict as to what will be a premium foal.[/QUOTE]

Last year was the first year I didn’t attend our local inspection, so unless it has become tougher in ONE year, sorry, I’ve seen a lot of interesting mares accepted for breeding. An Arabian that had no walk and no trot - but with a 10 score for head, it squeaked into MMB! Paint crosses, Appy crosses, unregistered mares of unknown lineage. Tbreds that were turned down by other registries. The list goes on.

I don’t mind, I am one who bred outside the “standard model” with great success, but I’ve always wondered why AWS and AWR were put down so much when RPSI and Old NA weren’t a whole lot different. They might have stronger requirements for their stallions (and even there, I’ve been surprised at what is approved, but it met their bloodline requirements), but we all know how important the mare is in the breeding equation.

I would be curious to see what a Standardbred brings to the table - they are often well built horses with big trots, but many struggle with the canter. I have never seen one brought to the FEI levels in any sport. There are other American breeds that are well built with some FEI success, why not look to those as well?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8326217]
Last year was the first year I didn’t attend our local inspection, so unless it has become tougher in ONE year, sorry, I’ve seen a lot of interesting mares accepted for breeding. An Arabian that had no walk and no trot - but with a 10 score for head, it squeaked into MMB! Paint crosses, Appy crosses, unregistered mares of unknown lineage. Tbreds that were turned down by other registries. The list goes on.

I don’t mind, I am one who bred outside the “standard model” with great success, but I’ve always wondered why AWS and AWR were put down so much when RPSI and Old NA weren’t a whole lot different. They might have stronger requirements for their stallions (and even there, I’ve been surprised at what is approved, but it met their bloodline requirements), but we all know how important the mare is in the breeding equation.

I would be curious to see what a Standardbred brings to the table - they are often well built horses with big trots, but many struggle with the canter. I have never seen one brought to the FEI levels in any sport. There are other American breeds that are well built with some FEI success, why not look to those as well?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps that was an off day but I’ve seen, especially for the foal and premium status, a higher standard raised.

Standardbred often have a good front end. There used to be many top level jumpers that were all or part standardbred. There have been some very nice crosses that I’ve seen…especially for jumping. Also they can have pretty easy minds for training for an ammy market (if not wrecked first). Not something I use but I can understand certain individuals bringing a lot to the table depending on a breeding program goals. There are some lines that are much more sport conformation.

[Foxtrot_s]

Diana McDonald of Camelot Stables, B.C. has used Standardbreds in her breeding program, tho not sure if they were registered, or where.

Standardbreds do have something to offer. They are sound, sane, flexible, athletic and not all are pacers.

As specialized breeding has progressed, there is not the same use for outsiders anymore.

[DownYonder]

RPSI is a daughter registry of RPS, which is a German Verband. As such, it is supposed to adhere to the policies that guide all the Verbands in Germany. In practice, it bends those rules from time to time in North America. I personally know of foals by Stallion Book II stallions that were given full registration papers, mares by Stallion Book II stallions that were put into upper mare books, a TB mare that had never been registered put into the MMB, and another mare with no papers and uncertain pedigree put in MMB because the owner mentioned during the inspection that she had been told the mare was sired by such-and-such WB stallion. This last instance was a surprise to the owner, and she even argued a bit with the inspector about putting the mare in MMB when she had no verifiable pedigree. (She left the registry the next year because of that episode.)

I don’t know if RPSI has full reciprocity with its mother registry in Germany, but if so, and all these horses are being enrolled in the same books as those in Germany, then the instances I mentioned above are in violation of German breeding law. In the past, the registry could have been subject to sanctions had the German Ministry of Agriculture been aware of the transgressions, but I am not sure if that is still the case. However, the registry in Germany is very small and has teetered on the edge of bankruptcy off and on for years, so it probably doesn’t really hit the Ministry’s radar.

That said - OP, are you sure the mare wasn’t put in Pre-Mare Book II? That would have been the appropriate book for the mare (as stated in RPSI’s own by-laws). http://www.rhpsi.com/download/MareBooksBylaws.pdf