As for Standardbred mares - in addition to the canter issues, they also very frequently have much trouble working through their topline. They tend to drop their backs instead. Another issue is that they often have weak backs and are not particularly good candidates for producing sport horses (esp. dressage foals).
Please note this question had been answered with this post
[QUOTE=dazedandconfuzed;8325866]
I’ve heard from a 3rd party that had been in contact with the association on another matter, they asked the question and have heard that a mistake was made in placing the standardbred mare in mare book 2 and that they were going to be in contact with the individual who presented the mare to correct their error.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DownYonder;8329466]
As for Standardbred mares - in addition to the canter issues, they also very frequently have much trouble working through their topline. They tend to drop their backs instead. Another issue is that they often have weak backs and are not particularly good candidates for producing sport horses (esp. dressage foals).[/QUOTE]
The same can be said for any breed. I’ve met many warmbloods who had weak backs and dropped behind the contact and were bred For dressage. Behind the contact… Really more of a training specific issue. Not saying Standardbreds are without fault but my experience has been they are incredibly trainable (often moreso than their WB counterparts) with a will to please that rivals TBs. Some have great conformation, some don’t – same as any breed. The good STBs can and are mistaken as WBs often - I know a few.
Would be interested to see what this mare looks like. There are a few posters here who have STBs who are just lovely individuals.
Viti was a Trotter (Fr) dam of Galoubet. A photo of Viti shows a mare with huge scope, style, free shoulder, bascule…and an influential dam.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8330988]
Viti was a Trotter (Fr) dam of Galoubet. A photo of Viti shows a mare with huge scope, style, free shoulder, bascule…and an influential dam.[/QUOTE]
Yes. And the French trotters of her day (she was born in 1965) are different horses from the American Standardbred of this era. Some of those trotters proved to be very useful for producing jumpers - not so many great dressage horses, but they are sometimes seen in the back generations of dressage horses here and there.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8330278]
The same can be said for any breed. I’ve met many warmbloods who had weak backs and dropped behind the contact and were bred For dressage. Behind the contact… Really more of a training specific issue. Not saying Standardbreds are without fault but my experience has been they are incredibly trainable (often moreso than their WB counterparts) with a will to please that rivals TBs. Some have great conformation, some don’t – same as any breed. The good STBs can and are mistaken as WBs often - I know a few.
Would be interested to see what this mare looks like. There are a few posters here who have STBs who are just lovely individuals.[/QUOTE]
True, and I am not disputing the fact that there are good STBs being quite useful as dressage horses. I am mostly just trying to point out that they are probably not as useful for breeding sport horses - particularly dressage horses - because they have not traditionally been bred to work through their toplines, or to take weight on the hindlegs. An analogy is the Quarter Horse - there are many QHs out there giving their owners much joy in lower level dressage. But because they haven’t been traditionally bred for dressage type qualities, they cannot as a population be relied on to transmit dressage type qualities - esp. for the traits needed for success at higher levels.
I don’t think anybody suggested adding a STB to a dressage bloodline, but there have been many good trotting Standardbreds, even though the trend now is to breed the pacers.
As far as registries go, there are always the dyed in the wool fervent followers of one registry over another and the Gov and Old N/A are no different. Old N/
A has excellent horses…in my case she was registered Old N/A because there was no other suitable registry that held inspections within a reasonable distance. I’ve no problems with that at all.
A moot point now -
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8331834]
I don’t think anybody suggested adding a STB to a dressage bloodline…[/QUOTE]
The OP didn’t specify what the owner’s plans were for breeding the STB mare, so I thought I would point out why they aren’t ideal candidates to try to produce an UL dressage horse.
Funny thing though - I was contacted last summer by someone interested in breeding their STB mare to a dressage WB. Her comment was, “Well, she is a very big trotting horse and I think she would make very fancy trotting dressage foals.”
Take a look at the pedigree of Verdades – his entire tail female line are Dutch Harness horses…not exactly the same as STBs, but not what you would think to produce a dressage horse.
With the results of today’s breeding of dressage horses, why would anybody mess with the formula…they are amongst the most beautiful horses being bred these days.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8333134]
With the results of today’s breeding of dressage horses, why would anybody mess with the formula…they are amongst the most beautiful horses being bred these days.[/QUOTE]
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder… I certainly don’t think all the horses in our sandbox are beautiful… In movement and type. Some of the more extravagant movers make me sad to witness. It all depends on the viewer.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8333123]
Take a look at the pedigree of Verdades – his entire tail female line are Dutch Harness horses…not exactly the same as STBs, but not what you would think to produce a dressage horse.[/QUOTE]
Yes! And his dam’s sireline also contains Hackney blood. So he is one shining example of where trotting blood worked for producing a top of class dressage horse. But if it could be relied on to produce top international quality dressage mounts, the Verbands and other European WB societies would encourage it. But they don’t. KWPN may allow it, but I am not sure how many KWPN breeders are now rushing to use DHH blood for their riding horse foals.
I once took a course in the history and philosophy of science. Back in the 1700s there was a theory of matter called the phlogiston theory that has been totally discredited today. But when it was in its heyday, anomalies were explained by tweaking the theory, not re-evaluating its basis.
We always need to keep an open mind about everything and be willing to examine fundamental beliefs–except in matters of faith.
There are beautiful horses of all breeds - and even in dressage not every animal is perfect, and some of the training methods present a very different horse. Selective breeding has made a remarkably different animal than - say - forty years ago. Classic TB’s are perhaps my favorite. But, so as not to stray from the original post, Standardbreds/trotters have produced athletes,
though unorthodox nowdays.
They have done and still do whatever their owners ask.
http://www.standardbredhorse.com/
http://www.standardbredfanclub.com/jumpers.html
http://www.standardbredfanclub.com/dressage.html
http://www.telegraphharbourinn.com/Sambuca/sambuca.html
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/standardbreds-on-stage.html
And they can trot -with a rider
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h0ufY8ABPew/T5xD8WOlLBI/AAAAAAAABD4/WJhlKNK6Z7Y/s1600/Finish.jpg
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/files/imagecache/%2Fracing-under-saddle.jpg
Looked at a very nice Canadian Warmblood gelding that was 1/4 Standardbred. Never would have guessed that he was anything but full warmblood.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;8333812]
Yes! And his dam’s sireline also contains Hackney blood. So he is one shining example of where trotting blood worked for producing a top of class dressage horse. But if it could be relied on to produce top international quality dressage mounts, the Verbands and other European WB societies would encourage it. But they don’t. KWPN may allow it, but I am not sure how many KWPN breeders are now rushing to use DHH blood for their riding horse foals.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I have a 4 YO DHH x hackney/clyde that is pretty fancy. Uphill and a nice mover. Who would have thought from that breeding!
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8335620]
They have done and still do whatever their owners ask.
http://www.standardbredhorse.com/
http://www.standardbredfanclub.com/jumpers.html
http://www.standardbredfanclub.com/dressage.html
http://www.telegraphharbourinn.com/Sambuca/sambuca.html
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/standardbreds-on-stage.html
And they can trot -with a rider
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h0ufY8ABPew/T5xD8WOlLBI/AAAAAAAABD4/WJhlKNK6Z7Y/s1600/Finish.jpg
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/files/imagecache/%2Fracing-under-saddle.jpg[/QUOTE]
Hmm it is very new to me that Halla (second link about the jumpers) was a 1/2 standardbred.
In German sources, you find that she was out of a french mare (with unknown ancestors) and her father was the trotter Oberst… So not sure where the Standardbred comes from…
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8335620]
They have done and still do whatever their owners ask.
http://www.standardbredhorse.com/
http://www.standardbredfanclub.com/jumpers.html
http://www.standardbredfanclub.com/dressage.html
http://www.telegraphharbourinn.com/Sambuca/sambuca.html
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/standardbreds-on-stage.html
And they can trot -with a rider
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h0ufY8ABPew/T5xD8WOlLBI/AAAAAAAABD4/WJhlKNK6Z7Y/s1600/Finish.jpg
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/files/imagecache/%2Fracing-under-saddle.jpg[/QUOTE]
Of course they are versatile. So is a nice Appaloosa. Or a nice QH. Or a nice Arabian. But with all due respect, most of the horses in your links are/were at fairly low levels in sport horse disciplines, or were born MANY generations ago.
My comment is that AS A POPULATION, they cannot be relied on for producing top horses for the big ring. Yes, there will always be a stellar individual here or there who makes the grade. But those horses are outliers, and not indicative of the population as a whole.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8336445]
Hmm it is very new to me that Halla (second link about the jumpers) was a 1/2 standardbred.
In German sources, you find that she was out of a french mare (with unknown ancestors) and her father was the trotter Oberst… So not sure where the Standardbred comes from…[/QUOTE]
Yes, her pedigree as showing in HorseTelex.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/226403
Oberst was a “German trotter” born near Frankfurt, Germany in the early 1900’s. That does not make him a Standardbred.
And while the HorseTelex site cannot be relied on 100%, it was an interesting experiment to see if Halla had been used for breeding, and what her descendants were doing. It looks like she produced only one foal, a daughter who in turn produced only one foal - a daughter. And that one produced one foal, a 1990 gelding. Her line seems to end there, so it appears she was not a particularly successful producer of top of class sport horse talent, or there would be more descendants reflected in HorseTelex.
